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Old
05-30-2005, 01:11 PM
  #76
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I would hardly say that Nolan has no value, just that his contract limits his value. Nolan can be a solid contributor, and having the year off probably will really help some of the injury riddled players because they would have taken at least part of the off time resting instead of training full out.
You never know how contracts will be handled going into the new league.

But I see no reason why the Ducks would give up Sykora for Nolan when they would be taking on a big risk to give up a solid contributor.

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05-30-2005, 10:43 PM
  #77
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Quote:
Originally Posted by salzy
Thomas' 73 and 64 points are the 3rd and 5th best totals of his 20 year career.
Roberts' numbers have been consistent since he came back in 97. He's not a good player?
Mogilny's 79 points was his 2nd best total since 94.
And none of that changes the fact that "the three of them collectively averaged around 35 years old during their time with Mats. They were past their prime."

Quote:
Originally Posted by salzy
Regardless of their age, those are 3 very high calibre linemates.
They were pretty good.

Quote:
Originally Posted by salzy
Not to mention Renberg was 29 when he got to Toronto and was a former point per game player.
Let's look at your criteria:

Renberg hadn't been a PPG plyer for six seasons when he showed up. Renberg had been a .54 ppg player over the three seasons just before he joined the Leafs.

Thomas was 4-5 years since being a PPG player when he joined TO. Thomas had been .62 ppg over the three years just before joining the Leafs.

Roberts had't been a ppg player for six seasons before joining the Leafs. He had been .69 ppg over the three years just before joining the Leafs.

Mogilny showed up having come off a ppg season in New Jersey and was the best skill player of this bunch. But in his three seasons before that, he had showed some decline in his scoring.

All of the above suffered from chronic injuries while playing in Toronto that affected their productivity.

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05-30-2005, 10:56 PM
  #78
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Originally Posted by cleduc
And none of that changes the fact that "the three of them collectively averaged around 35 years old during their time with Mats. They were past their prime."
Then I guess Sundin was past his prime also, as his numbers have dropped considerably.

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05-30-2005, 11:01 PM
  #79
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Renberg was mostly ineffective as a Leaf.

He had hands of stone, so his decent effort level produced nothing offensively. Legion of Crap.


Last edited by Volcanologist: 05-30-2005 at 11:10 PM.
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Old
05-30-2005, 11:08 PM
  #80
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how about...


gerber, perry

for

antropov, telly, 4th

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Old
05-31-2005, 12:15 AM
  #81
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Porn*
how about...


gerber, perry

for

antropov, telly, 4th
Too late to get Gerber from the Ducks.

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Old
05-31-2005, 12:15 AM
  #82
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Porn*
how about...


gerber, perry

for

antropov, telly, 4th
Ouch. Well, for starters, Gerber's a Carolina Hurricane. Plus the 4th is pretty much useless, Telly isn't needed whatsoever, so it'd be just Antropov for Perry, which I'd decline.

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Old
05-31-2005, 01:11 AM
  #83
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Juicer
Then I guess Sundin was past his prime also, as his numbers have dropped considerably.

In '04, Sundin was 12th in league scoring and once again, led his team for the 9th time in 10 years. His .93 ppg was down slightly from his .96 ppg average over the last six years.

Since 1998-99, Regular Season (out of around 900 NHL players)
Ranking in the NHL (Ranking on Leafs Team) from NHLPA

4th Scoring (1st on Leafs)
5th Goal Scoring (1st on Leafs)
11th PPG (of top 100 NHL scorers)

Sundin outscored every forward on his team by 25 points. Gee, I wonder if a knowledgeable hockey fan might be able to determine if the injuries and weaker performance of the top forwards (including Mogilny, Roberts & Renberg) had any impact on his scoring even though it was relatively marginal.

Captain Clutch's 10 game winning goals in '04 led the league as he does in that category over the last six NHL seasons. He also leads in Clutch scoring since 2001 but I did not check where he finished in '04 (he didn't lead in '04 but he was "up there").

Since 1998-99, Playoffs (out of around 350 NHL players)
Ranking in the NHL (Ranking on Leafs Team) from NHLPA

7th Goal Scoring (1st on Leafs)
7th Scoring (1st on Leafs)
10th PPG

In the '04 playoffs, of all those players playing more than one series, only four players had a better playoff ppg than Sundin. His 1.00 ppg was better than his .89 ppg average over his last six seasons. Nice decline. Should we worry ? He was 21st in goal scoring and 26th in scoring but he did that in only 9 games.

I don't see a major decline. But we may soon.

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05-31-2005, 09:47 PM
  #84
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Quote:
Originally Posted by cleduc
In '04, Sundin was 12th in league scoring and once again, led his team for the 9th time in 10 years. His .93 ppg was down slightly from his .96 ppg average over the last six years.
His ppg. average is clearly down, not only from his six year average, but far below his numbers before that. I guess the past his prime thing rings true.

Quote:
Originally Posted by cleduc
Since 1998-99, Regular Season (out of around 900 NHL players)
Ranking in the NHL (Ranking on Leafs Team) from NHLPA

4th Scoring (1st on Leafs)
5th Goal Scoring (1st on Leafs)
11th PPG (of top 100 NHL scorers)
Sundin remains a nice offensive player, nobody doubts his offensive ability.

Quote:
Originally Posted by cleduc
Sundin outscored every forward on his team by 25 points. Gee, I wonder if a knowledgeable hockey fan might be able to determine if the injuries and weaker performance of the top forwards (including Mogilny, Roberts & Renberg) had any impact on his scoring even though it was relatively marginal.
Mogilny played pretty well when he played, and poor Renberg. Anyone who plays with Sundin gets run down to make Mats look better. Renberg plays physical, plays defense and does the dirty work in the corners Sundin chooses not to do, and gets blamed for not scoring on top of that. You have to ask yourself why does Mats always have to play with guys like that? Obviously they have to compensate for his weaknesses in those areas.

BTW, it appears Mr. Innocent is throwing out insults again.

Quote:
Originally Posted by cleduc
Captain Clutch's 10 game winning goals in '04 led the league as he does in that category over the last six NHL seasons. He also leads in Clutch scoring since 2001 but I did not check where he finished in '04 (he didn't lead in '04 but he was "up there").
Where are those clutch stats in the playoffs? Also the GWG stat is a joke. If he scores a goal to make the score 3-0, the leafs go ahead 6-0, then the other team scores 2 meanignless goals, he gets the credit for the GWG? Where are you getting the "clutch scoring" stat?

Quote:
Originally Posted by cleduc
Since 1998-99, Playoffs (out of around 350 NHL players)
Ranking in the NHL (Ranking on Leafs Team) from NHLPA

7th Goal Scoring (1st on Leafs)
7th Scoring (1st on Leafs)
10th PPG
Again, he is a nice offensive player, but his points seem to come in spurts and he seems to get shut down when the team needs him.

Quote:
Originally Posted by cleduc
In the '04 playoffs, of all those players playing more than one series, only four players had a better playoff ppg than Sundin. His 1.00 ppg was better than his .89 ppg average over his last six seasons. Nice decline. Should we worry ? He was 21st in goal scoring and 26th in scoring but he did that in only 9 games.
I assume a "knowledgable hockey fan" like you claim to be would realize a players ppg would likely go dwon as the competition gets higher in the late rounds? Especially winning teams that clamp down on defense.

BTW, what are the leafs W/L record in the post season when Sundin played vs. when he has been hurt?

Quote:
Originally Posted by cleduc
I don't see a major decline. But we may soon.
Compare his last 6yrs to the previous 6yrs.

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Old
05-31-2005, 10:30 PM
  #85
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mmbt
Too late to get Gerber from the Ducks.
D'oh

didn't know that... what did they get for him?

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Old
05-31-2005, 10:43 PM
  #86
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Porn*
D'oh

didn't know that... what did they get for him?
Malec and a 3rd rounder, which became Kyle Klubertanz.

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Old
05-31-2005, 11:13 PM
  #87
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Juicer
Compare his last 6yrs to the previous 6yrs.
to be fair, compare league scoring in the last six years to the previous six (i don't really have any numbers, but i figure a 75 point season in 2004 is probably more like 85 points in 1997). I think Mats is still around his prime, although conventional wisdom says it won't be for much longer

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Old
05-31-2005, 11:49 PM
  #88
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Juicer
His ppg. average is clearly down, not only from his six year average, but far below his numbers before that. I guess the past his prime thing rings true.
Most hockey fans are aware of the drop in league scoring during Sundin's career and they would know to take that under consideration when evaluating your remarks. League scoring during Sundin's career prior to the last six years was around 19% higher than the past six years. But Sundin's scoring only fell 7%. More on this below.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Juicer
Mogilny played pretty well when he played, and poor Renberg. Anyone who plays with Sundin gets run down to make Mats look better. Renberg plays physical, plays defense and does the dirty work in the corners Sundin chooses not to do, and gets blamed for not scoring on top of that. You have to ask yourself why does Mats always have to play with guys like that? Obviously they have to compensate for his weaknesses in those areas.
How come these great linemates playing with Mats last season couldn’t get closer than 25 points to him ? Fact is, they’re not able to play as well as Sundin any longer. They most certainly couldn’t keep up with him last season on the scoresheet. Mogilny not playing with Mats (mainly with Reichel & Tucker) in ’02 scored 57 points. Mogilny getting playing time with Mats in ’03 scored 79 points.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Juicer
Again, he is a nice offensive player, but his points seem to come in spurts and he seems to get shut down when the team needs him.
Sundin is 7th in playoff scoring over the past six years (NHLPA stats). 1 ppg in the playoffs last season. .89 ppg in the playoffs is top 10 over the last six years. Your theory of decline is bogus. He’s among the very elite in the league.

38% of Leafs playoff goals scored involved Sundin since he arrived in Toronto (up from 34% in the regular season). And that stat underlines that Sundin has done his job in the playoffs better than most and if his teammates had been able to come close to keeping up, the Leafs would have done better in the playoffs than they have. As it is, over the last six years, only 3 or 4 NHL teams have won more playoff series than the Leafs with Sundin leading them.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Juicer
Compare his last 6yrs to the previous 6yrs.
Compare Sundin's scoring over the past six seasons to any Flyer. There isn't one who can touch him over that period in the playoffs or regular season.

League scoring in past six years = 2.66 goals per game/team
League scoring during Sundin's career prior to the last six years = 3.17 goals per game

League scoring drops 19% and even more (around 30%?) for the top 10 scorers in the league (Sundin is 4th in NHL scoring over the last ten years) but Sundin's ppg only drops 7% with some sub par linemates = Sundin improved in scoring relative to the league over the past six years. Compare those results to the rest of the league - 99% of the rest of the league can't keep up.

Sundin is the 4th highest scorer in the NHL over the last ten years and the fifth highest scorer over the least six years. He was 12th last season with linemates that couldn’t get within 24 points of him. Your claim of "his numbers have dropped considerably" when held up against the fact that his scoring last seaosn was less than 3 points below his project ppg over the last six seasons with linemates who could score nearly as well. If that is a decline, what happened to the other 895 NHLers that couldn’t catch him in decline ?

Darryl Shilling did stats analysis of scoring consistency throughout NHL history
http://members.shaw.ca/hbtn/player_s...onsistency.htm
Oh, and the next time a Leafs fan says that Mats Sundin has been one of the most consistent players over the last ten years, kindly tell him he’s very wrong. Sundin has been the MOST consistent player over the last ten years.

Sundin ranks fifth on Darryl’s High Quality Consistency, All-Time, forwards list - measuring his scoring.

You may not agree with Darryl’s methods for determination of his rankings. But there is little doubt no matter how one calculated it that Sundin would rank very well as a consistent scorer right through last season.

Of all the players in the NHL for you to pick to whine about on scoring consistency (only because you hate Sundin), you appear to have picked one of the most consistent scorers in NHL history. Well done. Right on top of things as usual.

If you're looking for a candidate who is in decline, let's talk about JR, John LeClair or Tony Amonte. Let's look at their playoff or regular season scoring over the past six seasons and see if there isn't a more obvious trend downward. Actually, let's not because we already know they're prime examples of players in decline.


Last edited by cleduc: 06-01-2005 at 08:52 AM.
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Old
06-01-2005, 08:21 AM
  #89
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If I were Anaheim I'd turn down this deal. Sykora's too good to not get something better for him. His contract isn't bad either.

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Old
06-01-2005, 08:44 AM
  #90
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Quote:
Originally Posted by cleduc
Sundin ranks fifth on Darryl’s High Quality Consistency, All-Time, forwards list - measuring his scoring.
I don't put very much stock on any list that puts Sundin ahead of Gretzky or even Sakic (more direct compeditor). Based on the formula, the fact that Naslund improved greatly actually hurts his score whereas someone consistently good but not great (Gartner and I would argue Sundin) gets a high score.

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06-01-2005, 12:40 PM
  #91
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jin
I don't put very much stock on any list that puts Sundin ahead of Gretzky or even Sakic (more direct compeditor). Based on the formula, the fact that Naslund improved greatly actually hurts his score
DING DING DING DING DING DING DING DING DING DING

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06-01-2005, 01:50 PM
  #92
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jin
I don't put very much stock on any list that puts Sundin ahead of Gretzky or even Sakic (more direct compeditor). Based on the formula, the fact that Naslund improved greatly actually hurts his score whereas someone consistently good but not great (Gartner and I would argue Sundin) gets a high score.
If you want Gretzky or Sakic at the top of a list higher than Sundin, a top scorers list would do the trick.

Given that Gretzky, for example, scored at such a high level, I agree that statistical inconsistency doesn't entirely do him or other very high scorers complete justice.

Naslund's has not been as statistically consistent in scoring over his career. That's not a big slight per se to Naslund as he has stepped it up. It is a fact.

Given the drop in league scoring during his career, Sundin has also improved in scoring.

But the issue raised in this thread was questioning Sundin's consistency in scoring - not Naslund's nor Sakic's nor Gretzky's. The point made by that report is Sundin has been as statistically consistent a scorer as any player in the NHL and better than most in NHL history in that regard.

Sundin's '03-04 results, less than 3 points below his average PPG while playing with a top six that couldn't get within 24 points of him, continues Sundin's string of scoring consistency. And that is all the linked report is being used to say in this thread. 4th place in NHL scoring over the last ten years would also reinforce that.

Sundin continues to be very consistent in his scoring in the playoffs and regular season.


Last edited by cleduc: 06-02-2005 at 07:25 AM.
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Old
06-01-2005, 03:07 PM
  #93
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Originally Posted by cleduc
Sundin continues to be very consistent in his scoring in the playoffs and regular season.
And in elimination games and game 7s. He is VERY consistent in those too.

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06-01-2005, 03:52 PM
  #94
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Originally Posted by salzy
And in elimination games and game 7s. He is VERY consistent in those too.
Indeed. Something we can agree on. He's better than most in the NHL in elimination games and game sevens. Most in the NHL can't match his ppg in those games either.

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06-01-2005, 04:03 PM
  #95
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Originally Posted by cleduc
Indeed. Something we can agree on. He's better than most in the NHL in elimination games and game sevens. Most in the NHL can't match his ppg in those games either.
I'll have to take your word for it. I tried to find a ranking, but apparently the web domain www.winlessingamesevens.com is still available.

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06-01-2005, 05:32 PM
  #96
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Originally Posted by salzy
I'll have to take your word for it. I tried to find a ranking, but apparently the web domain www.winlessingamesevens.com is still available.
As great a player as he is, I don't think they've named any teams after Sundin and used his name for a team yet. Being a team sport, I think you would more easily find team records recorded against the team that earned them and not against a player.

"I've got much more respect for a guy like Marcel Dionne - who turned down a chance to join the Oilers in the 80's because he didn't want to win that way. Instead he went to the Rangers and tried to earn it." Anonymous Poster

Marcel Dionne NHL Game Sevens Record : 1975-6 0 for 1 (shutout)

In 19 NHL seasons, Dionne only got his team to only 12 playoff series. His team only won only three of those series (none of them best of seven). In a higher scoring era, Dionne's playoff ppg was .92. Sundin's ppg is .89 in a lower scoring era.

If the elite player has so much to do with the team result, Sundin has done more (with his team winning seven of 13 series) in his last six playoff seasons than Marcel Dionne did in his entire career. Sundin got his team to more playoff series and won more of them. Somehow, the Hall of Fame recognized what a good player Dionne was regardless of his team's results. They were able to see that evaluating a player for the Hall of Fame on a few elimination games or game sevens was nonsense because they understood that it is a team sport and a player’s contribution to his team also includes getting them to game sevens.

Paul Henderson is still on the outside looking in because of what he did in the rest of his career rather than getting in the HoF because he got hot for a few historic games on a team that Dionne also was also initially selected for. Even if one disagrees with that Henderson decision, much fewer would disagree that Dionne was more deserving of Hall of Fame recognition than Henderson on the strength of player that he proved that he was without team success.

(Please note: no one stated that Mats Sundin is a better player than Marcel Dionne.) But I am saying that the evaluation of a player based upon 0.2% of the games in their career and also based upon a team result when 19 other players, a coach, the opposition, injuries, refereeing & other circumstances factor in is basically a bunch of trivia. That’s how the Hall of Fame saw it in Dionne’s case or he’d be still on the outside looking in with Henderson because you can’t come up any bigger in any bigger series than what Henderson did in ’72.


Last edited by cleduc: 06-02-2005 at 07:26 AM.
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Old
06-01-2005, 07:27 PM
  #97
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Quote:
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But I am saying that the evaluation of a player based upon 0.2% of the games in their career
Not sure about that, but I think it's fair to evaluate a player based upon 100% of the biggest games in his career.

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06-01-2005, 08:32 PM
  #98
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Quote:
Originally Posted by salzy
And in elimination games and game 7s. He is VERY consistent in those too.
Must be why the Flyers won all those Cups after beating the leafs 2 out of 3 times.

Riding a one trick pony sure is fun. You get stats put in front of you and you argue against the stats with non-valid arguments. How many players in the league haven't won a Cup? How many of those players are HOF calibre? A whole lot of them. Just because Sundin hasn't won the big game hardly eliminates him as one of the better players in the game over the period of the 90's and into the 00's.

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06-01-2005, 08:48 PM
  #99
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Originally Posted by London Knights
Must be why the Flyers won all those Cups after beating the leafs 2 out of 3 times.
The Flyers have nothing to do with this conversation. I'm going to assume the rest of your post is equally irrelevant and just stop reading here. I might be missing something brilliant, but I'm willing to take that risk.

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06-02-2005, 11:01 AM
  #100
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Vedder19
Here it is...but keep in mind this is based on Anahiem looking at dumping salary (I remember they were looking at unloading Sykora for a pick and a prospect last year at the deadline, as he makes about $4.5 mil)

here goes.

to Ana: A.Ponikarovsky, K.Pilar, 1st round draft pick
to Tor: P.Sykora,R.Salei, T.Brent

1) Anahiem was looking at dumping salary
2) Salei was having contract problems and only signed a 1 year deal
3) Tim Brent refused to sign a low ball contract and re-entered the draft, only to be drafted again by Ana.(but he did end up signing a 3 year deal, I wonder if there is still any bad blood?)

Enjoy
Here's where you have to begin to think of the nhl in a post CBA environment. Last year this trade could have occured, but after a CBA is signed the Leafs will not be able to add any more players. They will be one of the teams hurt by the new CBA. They will be forced to shed older high-priced players and develop their prospects. So any trade scenarios which involve star players going to teams like colorado, detroit, dallas, philly and toronto are very unlikely since they can't add salary and go over the cap.

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