Your going to need more Madden/Moore examples then they could both enter the league at 25. Moore is a decent playmaker, and can kill penalties but he's certainly not "exceptional" in that aspect.
I'm not going to get into the whole Madden-comparison thing, but I would call Moore an "exceptional" PKer insofar as I thought he was by far Hartford's best PKer this past season.
Your going to need more Madden/Moore examples then they could both enter the league at 25. Moore is a decent playmaker, and can kill penalties but he's certainly not "exceptional" in that aspect. You clearly admitted Madden had a superior AHL and college career, but hey they would both enter the NHL at 25 years old. 'Why not?' is not an argument BTW. The question is why? What has he shown to give you the opinion of a John Madden? If thats how you compare players then its time to enter reality. Madden was a better player at each stop. Moore has been mediocre in the AHL. Ever played sports as a kid? When you move into an upper league from a lower one things don't become easier... they get more difficult. AHL isn't the end all of everyone, but is a scale of future success. He isn't a 20 year old who is struggling at a young age who is only beginning to realize his potential. Moore is 2-3 years away from his prime years, and he still can't produce consistently in Hartford.
Oh really. Why don't you explain why no NHL team drafted Madden while our Ranger brass took Dom Moore in the third or fourth round?
And you are way off base on Moore's production at Hfd. He improved this past season and also had a reliable +14 rating. Which shows that he's not just an offensive guy. He's never going to be more than a 35-40 pt scorer anyway. But if that's what he does and plays a smart overall two-way game, why is that a waste?
I am more then willing to go through a rebuild, but that means more then just sticking every young player onto the roster and expecting greatness. According to you we must have the best prospect organization in hockey. John Madden, Darren McCarty, and a nice checker all in our 18-25 ranking pool? You may disagree with what I think of these guys, but that means nothing about my desire to rebuild. According to you every one of these guys must have a good solid NHL career ahead of them. Guess what... that won't happen. I guarantee it. Out of our top 20 prospects you'll be extremely lucky to get 7 decent NHLers. That's reality.
I agree that not every guy will pan out. But you won't even give Moore a chance after he showed that he could play here. You won't do it with Murray either. And according to you, Jed's hustle that won the Steven McDonald award meant nothing. He should just retire.
You can sit and hope for these 3 guys who play mediocre AHL hockey to suddenly excel in the NHL, but that won't happen. Your going to have to take off your Ranger blue sunglasses. If one of these three become a quality 3rd liner then you take it to the bank. - I'm just hoping either Moore or Murray can become a quality 3rd liner - they both have a decent shot IMHO.
When are you going to take off yours? Moore was one of Hartford's best forwards. You know who was second and third on that list?
Alexandre Giroux and Jamie Lundmark.
Where was Jozef Balej? Maybe he's a "bust" now. I am glad I don't think that way.
Last edited by Kovy274Hart: 05-30-2005 at 11:25 PM.
Reason: Correction on stat
I'm not going to get into the whole Madden-comparison thing, but I would call Moore an "exceptional" PKer insofar as I thought he was by far Hartford's best PKer this past season.
He was. And did Moore not create plenty of shorthanded chances? He was a lot like Madden in that aspect. Always looking to put pressure on the other team's PP and try to get one. That's what makes the Devils PK so good. Madden's constant doggedness and hustle. And Pandolfo's grit.
Put Moore and Ort on the Rangers PK unit and maybe you'd have something that made it better than one of the most pathetic units the past few yrs.
"Oh really. Why don't you explain why no NHL team drafted Madden while our Ranger brass took Dom Moore in the third or fourth round?"
Why does draft position matter? We took Falardeau just outside the first round. St Louis - like Madden - was undrafted - but clearly someone saw something. The bottom line is production. Madden played for a better program - stepped into the AHL - and played a better game then Moore.
"And you are way off base on Moore's production at Hfd. He improved this past season and also had a reliable +14 rating. Which shows that he's not just an offensive guy. He's never going to be more than a 35-40 pt scorer anyway. But if that's what he does and plays a smart overall two-way game, why is that a waste?"
When did I say he was a waste? His production def wasn't spectacular as he disapeared the 2nd half of the year, and in the playoffs. A +14 is nice, but keep in mind this isn't a last place team - Hartford fought for 1st place all year, which means probably everyone on the top 2-3 lines was doing pretty well in the plus/minus department. A smart 2-way game is great. I love 2-way players. I don't hate Moore - I think he can play in the NHL, but if your expecting a difference maker like John Madden, then you will be dissapointed. As I've stated a few times, Moore strikes me as a guy isn't good enough offensively to be in your top 6, but isn't strong enough to be a 3rd line center in the East. That means one of two things: A. He switches to the wing. or B. He plays on the 4th line and is more of just a PK specialist who plays with lower talent players on an energy line.
"Moore was one of Hartford's best forwards. You know who was second and third on that list?
Alexandre Giroux and Jamie Lundmark.
Where was Jozef Balej? Maybe he's a "bust" now. I am glad I don't think that way."
1. Are those names supposed to awe me? You mention Giroux and Lundmark like we are talking about Jason Spezza. Outplaying Alex Giroux is nice, but hardly means your a dominate force. Not to mention Lundmark was def better then Moore the 2nd half of the year (as well he should be with his talent), and I'm sure more then a few would argue Giroux was better all year.
2. Who says Balej is a bust? I'm not his biggest fan, because he's more one dimesional, and I don't know how that will fit in the McGill/Ranger system in the long haul especially after last season. Balej is a 2nd line winger or bust to me because he's obviously an offensive player. He's a guy who'd probably benefit greater on an offensive minded team, unlike our supposed devils defense first idea. I'm more of a Korpikoski fan. A tough player who plays both ways, and does his most damage in important games! Now there is a player I can't wait to see when he gets over here in 2-3 more years... and yes I'm willing to wait... as I am with Jessiman who I'm glad is going to Dartmouth for 1 more year
Why does draft position matter? We took Falardeau just outside the first round. St Louis - like Madden - was undrafted - but clearly someone saw something. The bottom line is production. Madden played for a better program - stepped into the AHL - and played a better game then Moore.
I'll give you this. But it doesn't explain why the Rangers selected him and it's not like he didn't develop since then.
When did I say he was a waste? His production def wasn't spectacular as he disapeared the 2nd half of the year, and in the playoffs. A +14 is nice, but keep in mind this isn't a last place team - Hartford fought for 1st place all year, which means probably everyone on the top 2-3 lines was doing pretty well in the plus/minus department. A smart 2-way game is great. I love 2-way players. I don't hate Moore - I think he can play in the NHL, but if your expecting a difference maker like John Madden, then you will be dissapointed. As I've stated a few times, Moore strikes me as a guy isn't good enough offensively to be in your top 6, but isn't strong enough to be a 3rd line center in the East. That means one of two things: A. He switches to the wing. or B. He plays on the 4th line and is more of just a PK specialist who plays with lower talent players on an energy line.
He's a similar size to Madden. Has good wheels, can setup teammates well and is a terrific penalty killer. His future isn't as a scoring center. But it's in a two-way role. I think he is capable.
1. Are those names supposed to awe me? You mention Giroux and Lundmark like we are talking about Jason Spezza. Outplaying Alex Giroux is nice, but hardly means your a dominate force. Not to mention Lundmark was def better then Moore the 2nd half of the year (as well he should be with his talent), and I'm sure more then a few would argue Giroux was better all year.
You missed the point. The point was Moore was one of Hartford's best players in McGill's system.
2. Who says Balej is a bust? I'm not his biggest fan, because he's more one dimesional, and I don't know how that will fit in the McGill/Ranger system in the long haul especially after last season. Balej is a 2nd line winger or bust to me because he's obviously an offensive player. He's a guy who'd probably benefit greater on an offensive minded team, unlike our supposed devils defense first idea. I'm more of a Korpikoski fan. A tough player who plays both ways, and does his most damage in important games! Now there is a player I can't wait to see when he gets over here in 2-3 more years... and yes I'm willing to wait... as I am with Jessiman who I'm glad is going to Dartmouth for 1 more year
Okay. You say you're a Korp fan. But how do you know he'll become that kind of player? At this point, we really don't have much to judge him on. He'll need to produce better in his second pro year at TPS.
Balej I see as a 25-goal scorer at best. He just isn't consistent. Unless he finds that, then 25 goals is where he'll max out at. And that's only if he competes hard.
Okay. You say you're a Korp fan. But how do you know he'll become that kind of player? At this point, we really don't have much to judge him on. He'll need to produce better in his second pro year at TPS.
Balej I see as a 25-goal scorer at best. He just isn't consistent. Unless he finds that, then 25 goals is where he'll max out at. And that's only if he competes hard.
I don't know that he will or won't develop into an NHL player. I'm not saying he's a sure thing. That is his style so it's not like he's going to come over and play like Balej though. If he makes it, it will most likely be as the tough two-way player he is.
I agree on Balej, and I don't see him with the organization more then a few years. If he performs well I think he'll be dealt in the next 2-3 years because he doesn't seem like the type of player that the Rangers are looking to build on. I could wasily see Balej on a team like EDM.
