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2013 Offseason Thread Part IV: Streit's rights to PHI for 2014 4th Rounder

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06-12-2013, 11:42 AM
  #926
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Originally Posted by Trxjw View Post
Varies between a 2nd and 3rd. I'm not 100% sold on Postma. I see a lot of similarities between him and Bobby Sanguinetti. It'd be nice to get another pro-ready body back, but I'd probably ask for the 11th overall and Burmistrov as a starting point and work from there.
not gonna happen.

now what if we talked mdz and mcilrath ??

what could that package bring. big mac hails from out there as well, so going home for him. interesting....

oh and i still would like to pry keith yandle away for the yotes

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06-12-2013, 11:43 AM
  #927
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Someone help me out here.

What are some of you seeing from Burmistrov offensively that I'm not seeing?

He was 5th on the team in TOI during a full season in 2011-12 and produced 28 point in 76 games.

He took a major step back this year while only losing a minute a game off his TOI from the previous season.

I don't see a dangerous offensive player and I do not see a player with much vision.

Decent defensively, but I wouldn't expect to see more than 35 points out of him on an average basis...if that

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06-12-2013, 11:44 AM
  #928
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I'm admittedly not as well versed in hockey as most here but my .02


I'd look heavily at trading Girardi and Staal. Seems crazy I know.

Girardi-simply put I don't want to pay him what it'd take to keep him in ufa so I'd definitely gauge value and interest in what we could get back.

Staal-the Carolina thing scares me. I might wait a year to get his value back up but I would definitely gauge interest from Carolina this offseason.

I agree adding a Nystrom type to the bottom six is ideal.

I am very curious to see how our current Dmen advance the puck from our zone under the new coach. I think this is our #1 deficiency and sets our entire offense back. Imagine your football team consistently starting inside it's own 10 yard line. It feels like we are constantly trying to reestablish field position instead of driving the ball . . . if that makes sense.

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06-12-2013, 11:51 AM
  #929
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Originally Posted by offdacrossbar View Post
not gonna happen.

now what if we talked mdz and mcilrath ??

what could that package bring. big mac hails from out there as well, so going home for him. interesting....

oh and i still would like to pry keith yandle away for the yotes
Not interested in dealing that package. Why waste an asset like McIlrath? I know you don't like the kid, but I think your love of Burmistrov is clouding your judgement here. Plus I don't see why they'd be interested in McIlrath when they have Byfuglien, Bogosian and Trouba all likely taking up RHD spots this fall.

If you're talking MDZ and Mac for Burmi and the 11th, I still don't see the point. MDZ to Burmistrov is a downgrade unless he takes a giant leap in his development, and why give up McIlrath, who is progressing well, for another kid who is likely 3 years away from being an NHLer?

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06-12-2013, 11:58 AM
  #930
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DZ for Burmi + 1st is the least I'd consider.
Any other offers short of this and I'd rather keep DZ and play Lindberg.
And to address CM's point.
Lindberg never played in the NHL, but he is still better value, because he doesn't cost us assets to acquire.

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06-12-2013, 11:59 AM
  #931
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Originally Posted by Trxjw View Post
Not interested in dealing that package. Why waste an asset like McIlrath? I know you don't like the kid, but I think your love of Burmistrov is clouding your judgement here. Plus I don't see why they'd be interested in McIlrath when they have Byfuglien, Bogosian and Trouba all likely taking up RHD spots this fall.

If you're talking MDZ and Mac for Burmi and the 11th, I still don't see the point. MDZ to Burmistrov is a downgrade unless he takes a giant leap in his development, and why give up McIlrath, who is progressing well, for another kid who is likely 3 years away from being an NHLer?
Agreed.

I'd want Burmistrov+ for MDZ.

I get that some folks are less than pleased with Del Zotto, but for a player that had as poor a season as he had, on a team that struggled to score goals, he was on pace for a 38 point season.

That would have been 3 35+ point seasons in his first 4 years in the NHL.

He's worth alot more than Burmistrov.

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06-12-2013, 12:04 PM
  #932
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Originally Posted by offdacrossbar View Post
hes a creater and a passer first. he works well down low for a guy whos not "big". he works well in close spaces.
I think this is as big a need for our club going forward, than a "goalscorer".

One of our biggest problems was generating scoring chances. A finisher on this team won't have as big an impact as a playmaker. Especially one that can play in all three zones.

Stepan, Brassard, Burmistrov. Three centers who all have different abilities, but all can carry the puck and ultimately distribute it.

I'm on board. I just wouldn't part with MDZ unless it was Burmi+ something significant.

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06-12-2013, 12:11 PM
  #933
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Originally Posted by pld459666 View Post
Someone help me out here.

What are some of you seeing from Burmistrov offensively that I'm not seeing?

He was 5th on the team in TOI during a full season in 2011-12 and produced 28 point in 76 games.

He took a major step back this year while only losing a minute a game off his TOI from the previous season.

I don't see a dangerous offensive player and I do not see a player with much vision.

Decent defensively, but I wouldn't expect to see more than 35 points out of him on an average basis...if that
to date, he hasnt been the most productive player offensively. he over handles the puck and turns it over too much. hes not without his flaws but those type of issues can be taught out of him. he may have been /probably was rushed into the league as well. he probably should have had a year in the a.

he and noel had issues last 2 years. stuff happens.

having said that, his multi dimensional game makes him at worst a very good 3rd line centerman/pk guy and so hes a fairly safe bet to play top 9 minutes in this league for 10 years even if he "busts" and never develops the ability to create offense with top line minutes. i doubt that happens though. too much upside here.

his boom side is a top 6 centerman who can play all 3 zones.

he may never be a feature player but his skills are pretty solid and hes a safe bet to play a smart 2 way game and probably peak as a 17/45 guy with a solid +/-

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06-12-2013, 12:17 PM
  #934
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Originally Posted by Boom Boom Geoffrion View Post
Ryan McDonagh. RFA. Part of the core. He's going nowhere. Ever.

Marc Staal. 2 years remaining. Eye injury, concussions, real threat to flee to Carolina to play with his brothers. He would be crazy not too, imo.

MDZ. 22 years old. RFA after next year.

Moore. Love what I've seen from him, but only has 99 games experience.

Girardi. UFA after next season. Under 30. RHD that can log over 25min a night. Girardi is going to get stupid money next summer. I love him, but I'm not comfortable paying him 5.5M per year for the next 5-6 years.

Stralman. UFA next year as well. RHD. Under 30. Another strong year from him should land him 4M per year in the open market next summer.

Eminger is a #7. Gilroy is a #8. McIlrath doesn't look NHL ready, and if he does crack our roster he's going to get sheltered minutes.

I don't see how we can afford to move MDZ for a forward. After next season, we could see some serious turnover on our blue line.
The team needs more talent in greater numbers.
You can't assume some crazy return, like Staal for a 5 overall or MDZ for a 7 overall will still be an option next year.

Ergo, you make the best trade you can now, with anyone, no sacred cows, while demand is highest. Put the additional assets/improvement into the balance/depth you seek after the fact.

You guys should have listened to me and traded Girardi when he was top top dollar.

He still has real value, but it's a lot less.


Last edited by bernmeister: 06-12-2013 at 02:57 PM. Reason: typo
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06-12-2013, 12:25 PM
  #935
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Originally Posted by bernmeister View Post
The team needs more talent in greater numbers.
You can't assume some crazy return, like Staal for a 5 overall or MDZ for a 7 overall will still be an option next year.

Ego, you make the best trade you can now, with anyone, no sacred cows, while demand is highest. Put the additional assets/improvement into the balance/depth you seek after the fact.

You guys should have listened to me and traded Girardi when he was top top dollar.

He still has real value, but it's a lot less.
I don't think anyone here can trade Girardi even if they wanted to.

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06-12-2013, 12:35 PM
  #936
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Just a note for people who take trades talks from these threads over to the trade forum. Don't feel bad when you get shot down. Rarely do fans have any real understanding of value when it comes to draft picks. People drink the Koolaid when it comes to potential and a draft eligible player with 'upside' is worth the moon while established NHL talent is just filler.

MDZ+ to get the chance to draft a player who could very well amount to nothing. Yeah, sign me up for that one.

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06-12-2013, 12:36 PM
  #937
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I still think trading any of the current defensemen is a risky move.

There should be quality offensive players on the market after the buy-out period. I'd be more inclined to explore that then to mess with what I'd consider shaky depth on defense.

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06-12-2013, 12:39 PM
  #938
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Thats the problem with trading MDZ for Brumistrov. Its the unknown. Just last year we were all penciling Kreider for 20-25 goals, playing top line minutes. How did that work out. Now im reading he's a borderline 2-3 line player that will put in 15-20 goals a season. I wouldn't want to trade any of our established players for risks like him. Yes it could work out, but the probability of it happening aren't as high as some posters are making it out to be.

If you want someone like Brumistrov, you trade someone like Miller, Fasth, or Lindberg. MDZ is a year older but has a higher PPG than him. I think we can do better in terms of bringing in a better polished asset on offense with DZ.

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06-12-2013, 12:39 PM
  #939
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to date, he hasnt been the most productive player offensively. he over handles the puck and turns it over too much. hes not without his flaws but those type of issues can be taught out of him. he may have been /probably was rushed into the league as well. he probably should have had a year in the a.

he and noel had issues last 2 years. stuff happens.

having said that, his multi dimensional game makes him at worst a very good 3rd line centerman/pk guy and so hes a fairly safe bet to play top 9 minutes in this league for 10 years even if he "busts" and never develops the ability to create offense with top line minutes. i doubt that happens though. too much upside here.

his boom side is a top 6 centerman who can play all 3 zones.

he may never be a feature player but his skills are pretty solid and hes a safe bet to play a smart 2 way game and probably peak as a 17/45 guy with a solid +/-

Looking to have a good discussion here so dont' take this the wrong way.

I guess I can see the issues with the coach as he is giving this youngster top 2 line minutes and getting bottom 2 line production.

Burmistrov gets a minute to a minute and a half of PP time the last 2 years running. He's one of the top 4 forwards on the PK every game. He's being relied upon to play important minutes and roles and the numbers have not been there.

Based on what you described, I'm not seeing the justification in moving a 35+ point 2nd pairing defenceman for what would be our 3rd line center and one half of our 2nd/3rd pair of forwards on the PK.

I think that's poor asset management.

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06-12-2013, 12:41 PM
  #940
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You guys should have listened to me and traded Girardi when he was top top dollar.

He still has real value, but it's a lot less.
We can't trade Girardi. We're not Glen Sather.

And even if we could, Stralman isn't a 1st pairing dmen. Regardless of how twisted a world you live in.

Bern every few weeks your opinion about what this team needs just flops all over the place. One minute you want Hall. Malkin. Stamkos.

Join the club. So do we. Difference is we're not going to gut the team in half to make that happen.

You want to fill one hole and open up 7 more. How can anyone take your opinion seriously when you post foolish things like, Kreider is more valuable than Stepan.

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I don't think anyone here can trade Girardi even if they wanted to.
Bern would trade Girardi, Staal, MDZ, and roll with:

McDonagh-Stralman
Moore-Eminger
Skjei-McIlrath

No sacred cows. No sacred cows. Except Chris Kreider.

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06-12-2013, 12:46 PM
  #941
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Not interested in dealing that package. Why waste an asset like McIlrath? I know you don't like the kid, but I think your love of Burmistrov is clouding your judgement here. Plus I don't see why they'd be interested in McIlrath when they have Byfuglien, Bogosian and Trouba all likely taking up RHD spots this fall.

If you're talking MDZ and Mac for Burmi and the 11th, I still don't see the point. MDZ to Burmistrov is a downgrade unless he takes a giant leap in his development, and why give up McIlrath, who is progressing well, for another kid who is likely 3 years away from being an NHLer?
if they are shopping big buff like im hearing, then mac becomes more relevant.

if i can do mdz and mac for burmistrov and this years 11th pick i do that without hesitation. i guess it comes down to what role and how much of a contribution you feel dylan mcilrath will make for this team in the next 3 years. you know my feelings there.

this organization wont do that deal because that would be a fold on mac, but i would do it.

there are some very good players who will be there at 11. if wer talking dman, would absolutely love the big kid outa london nikita zadarov. for 6'5 hes got amazing wheels.

hes gonna be a bigtime player. trust me on this one. and a way more complete player than dylan mcilrath will ever be.

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06-12-2013, 12:48 PM
  #942
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I still think trading any of the current defensemen is a risky move.
.
Scares the crap out of me. Although I think Sather went a little bat **** crazy with the amount of dmen he's drafted over the years, look at what's happened.

Sauer might not play again. Sanguinetti flopped. Staal could be on his way out. McIlrath might never be more than a 6th dmen. Skjei isn't even close to being NHL ready.

Move MDZ for a player who will produce less than him. Staal flees to Carolina. Girardi and Stralman get ridiculous offers as UFA. Now we're in a position where we have to overpay for blue-liners, or trade for them.

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06-12-2013, 01:04 PM
  #943
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Looking to have a good discussion here so dont' take this the wrong way.

I guess I can see the issues with the coach as he is giving this youngster top 2 line minutes and getting bottom 2 line production.

Burmistrov gets a minute to a minute and a half of PP time the last 2 years running. He's one of the top 4 forwards on the PK every game. He's being relied upon to play important minutes and roles and the numbers have not been there.

Based on what you described, I'm not seeing the justification in moving a 35+ point 2nd pairing defenceman for what would be our 3rd line center and one half of our 2nd/3rd pair of forwards on the PK.

I think that's poor asset management.
fair enough. burmis best season was his first. score sheet wise, hes regressed since then. hes definitely not just a 3c project. he has 2c skills without question.

when you look at del zottos skating and his decision making and his overall defensive play, i guess its a half full/half empty deal depending on who you are. thats what makes this an intriguing deal potentially.

for a guy whos primarily an offensive dman, his skating is subpar and his hockey sense isnt much better. im not as sold on him getting a whole lot more productive.

burmistrov has the edge skill wise and i will take the better skater everytime.

you make fair points about the production being weak the last 2 years, but i think we over value del zotto and saying hes a 2nd pair guy might be stretching it. i cringe at the thought of him matching up against top 6 forwards night in night out.

when you look at a healthy nyr d core of staal, mcd, girardi and stralzie, mdz is a 3rd pair guy for us next season.

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06-12-2013, 01:17 PM
  #944
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Where I find some value in Burmistrov is in that he was rushed into the NHL, but is still young. Sometimes, a player like that will regress or stunt on the team that drafted them and the only hope they have of developing near their draft potential is to be traded. A few years later, the player is ruined.

That'd be the only upside to acquiring Burmistrov. Otherwise, no thanks.

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06-12-2013, 01:25 PM
  #945
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Originally Posted by offdacrossbar View Post
if they are shopping big buff like im hearing, then mac becomes more relevant.

if i can do mdz and mac for burmistrov and this years 11th pick i do that without hesitation. i guess it comes down to what role and how much of a contribution you feel dylan mcilrath will make for this team in the next 3 years. you know my feelings there.

this organization wont do that deal because that would be a fold on mac, but i would do it.

there are some very good players who will be there at 11. if wer talking dman, would absolutely love the big kid outa london nikita zadarov. for 6'5 hes got amazing wheels.

hes gonna be a bigtime player. trust me on this one. and a way more complete player than dylan mcilrath will ever be.
Regardless, it's not a package I'd be interested in giving up for a couple of pieces of unrealized potential. The organization wouldn't do it because it's a major step backwards, not because it would be giving up on McIlrath.

I'd be especially pissed if we dealt McIlrath to take a similar player in Zadorov. Big, stay-at-home kid who can hit. Big shot that can be a weapon if he could learn to get it off quicker. Not that much of an upgrade over McIlrath, IMO. Would take Ristolainen ahead of him without hesitation.

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06-12-2013, 01:32 PM
  #946
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Regardless, it's not a package I'd be interested in giving up for a couple of pieces of unrealized potential. The organization wouldn't do it because it's a major step backwards, not because it would be giving up on McIlrath.

I'd be especially pissed if we dealt McIlrath to take a similar player in Zadorov. Big, stay-at-home kid who can hit. Big shot that can be a weapon if he could learn to get it off quicker. Not that much of an upgrade over McIlrath, IMO. Would take Ristolainen ahead of him without hesitation.
This organization hasn't had a player like McIlrath is years and now that he is close to making it the Rangers should think about moving him? No way, move one of the other redundant pieces.

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06-12-2013, 01:32 PM
  #947
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Big pass on burmistrov for me. That's a risk the rangers can't afford to take.

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06-12-2013, 01:37 PM
  #948
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Originally Posted by Trxjw View Post
Regardless, it's not a package I'd be interested in giving up for a couple of pieces of unrealized potential. The organization wouldn't do it because it's a major step backwards, not because it would be giving up on McIlrath.

I'd be especially pissed if we dealt McIlrath to take a similar player in Zadorov. Big, stay-at-home kid who can hit. Big shot that can be a weapon if he could learn to get it off quicker. Not that much of an upgrade over McIlrath, IMO. Would take Ristolainen ahead of him without hesitation.
um. have you watched zadarov skate ?

please stop saying that mcilrath and zadarov are comparable. they are not. i think mac projects as a 3rd pair guy who fights. zadarov has REAL top shutdown potential. dylan really doesnt.

i only mention zadarov as a guy whos probably available at 11 and who i think is a better overall prospect than mac. thats all.

and is there a player who would fit the " possible unrealized potential" label more than dylan mcilrath ?? i think not.

burmistrov and zadarov for del bozo and mcilrath ?? sign me up !!

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06-12-2013, 01:39 PM
  #949
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um. have you watched zadarov skate ?

please stop saying that mcilrath and zadarov are comparable. they are not. i think mac projects as a 3rd pair guy who fights. zadarov has REAL top shutdown potential. dylan really doesnt.

i only mention zadarov as a guy whos probably available at 11 and who i think is a better overall prospect than mac. thats all.

and is there a player who would fit the " possible unrealized potential" label more than dylan mcilrath ?? i think not.

burmistrov and zadarov for del bozo and mcilrath ?? sign me up !!
ODC, I think more people would be able to follow your thinking if you didn't come up with awful nicknames for players who you have a clear bias against.

I understand you don't like McIlrath. I do. I'll take McIlrath over Burmistrov RIGHT NOW and McIlrath hasn't played in the NHL yet. And the funny thing is, I would love to add Burmistrov.

McIlrath played top pairing in the AHL after missing half a season with a knee injury that saw him miss a lot of playing and training time. I think he is doing just fine.

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06-12-2013, 01:49 PM
  #950
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fair enough. burmis best season was his first. score sheet wise, hes regressed since then. hes definitely not just a 3c project. he has 2c skills without question.

when you look at del zottos skating and his decision making and his overall defensive play, i guess its a half full/half empty deal depending on who you are. thats what makes this an intriguing deal potentially.

for a guy whos primarily an offensive dman, his skating is subpar and his hockey sense isnt much better. im not as sold on him getting a whole lot more productive.

burmistrov has the edge skill wise and i will take the better skater everytime.

you make fair points about the production being weak the last 2 years, but i think we over value del zotto and saying hes a 2nd pair guy might be stretching it. i cringe at the thought of him matching up against top 6 forwards night in night out.

when you look at a healthy nyr d core of staal, mcd, girardi and stralzie, mdz is a 3rd pair guy for us next season.
I guess we are looking at each player and their flaws and not expecting much of an improvement from either one cause much like you with MDZ, I to do not see Burmistrov improving much. Where as I can see MDZ's numbers improving with a competent coach running somehwta functioning PP.

I look at the skating (can be worked on), decision making (gets better with age and maturity) and see things about MDZ's game that can be corrected. However, I do agree with you regarding his position on this Rangers team.

I would have Staal, McD, Girardi and Moore ahead of MDZ, Stralman would be my #6 guy (paired with MDZ) so to that point MDZ is the odd man out.

At the end of the discussion I believe we are going to differ on Burmistrov and MDZ's value to the point of not seeing eye to eye.

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