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What does Kadri have to do to be considered this team's #1C moving forward?

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06-04-2013, 10:10 AM
  #1
Lebanese Leaf
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What does Kadri have to do to be considered this team's #1C moving forward?

In most roster discussions I've seen, most posters still don't think Kadri can be a #1C going forward. They still list #1C as this team's biggest need, and point to the need for trading for one instead of penciling in Kadri. His offensive outbreak this year was undeniable, putting up 44 points in 48 games with very little PP time. His defensive game came a long way as well, and he was even used on the PK on some occasions. His physical game was very impressive, finishing with 62 hits this season, good for 6th among Leaf forwards, while having some highlight reel hits in there too.

His faceoffs do need a lot of work, but so did Malkin's when he first broke into the league, so it's not unfathomable to think he could improve in that area in the off-season. Strength will also improve more with physical maturity.

IMO he is not getting enough credit for his breakout season among most posters around here. I think we have to give him a chance to slot into the #1 C position next year next to Lupul and Kessel, because he could very well be the answer to our biggest problem since Sundin left.

Thoughts?

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06-04-2013, 10:15 AM
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Probably repeat what he just did

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06-04-2013, 10:15 AM
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I do agree that he doesn't get nearly enough credit in his breakout season, even if he did disappear a bit towards the end of the year and during the playoffs. Whether he ran out of gas or just had a hot streak is what we will find out next season.

I think he's definitely a good/great 2nd line center. With experience and more consistency, we'll find out if he really is a 1st line center.

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06-04-2013, 10:21 AM
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To be a legitimate #1 centre? Or to be OUR #1 centre. There's a pretty big gap between those two things.

To be OUR #1 centre, he really only needs to get to about ~55 points and be so-so defensively.

To be a legitimate #1 Centre though (which I don't think he ever will be), he would either have to start putting up 60+ points while playing Selke calibre defensively (which he's never shown the potential for), or if he's only going to be average to slightly below average defensively, then he needs to put up closer to ~75 points (which I'd be very surprised to see).

I think Kadri will end up being a solid 2nd line C or 1B guy. Hopefully I'm wrong though, because this team could desperately use a legitimate #1 guy.

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06-04-2013, 10:23 AM
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Consistency, ability to handle a bigger workload, and discipline.

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06-04-2013, 10:25 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 416Leafer View Post
To be a legitimate #1 centre? Or to be OUR #1 centre. There's a pretty big gap between those two things.

To be OUR #1 centre, he really only needs to get to about ~55 points and be so-so defensively.

To be a legitimate #1 Centre though (which I don't think he ever will be), he would either have to start putting up 60+ points while playing Selke calibre defensively (which he's never shown the potential for), or if he's only going to be average to slightly below average defensively, then he needs to put up closer to ~75 points (which I'd be very surprised to see).

I think Kadri will end up being a solid 2nd line C or 1B guy. Hopefully I'm wrong though, because this team could desperately use a legitimate #1 guy.
He was on a 75 point pace this season in his first full year in the NHL. Why would you be surprised to see him repeat or even improve on that?

Also, by your definition, there would only be about 10 #1Cs in the entire league.

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06-04-2013, 10:25 AM
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Time and experience...and improved faceoffs. Consitentcy will be key. He pretty much disappeared after his hat trick against Ottawa and getting the Gilmour treatment from Don.

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06-04-2013, 10:27 AM
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More time..and not to fold like he did in the playoffs he needs to have a big physical winger ala Clarkson so he can play his game..

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06-04-2013, 10:29 AM
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Consistency, he needs to bring it every night.

He may get there, this will be a telling season for him.

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06-04-2013, 10:31 AM
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If he improves his faceoffs to 48%+ and puts up 65 pts while still playing good D I will be a happy camper!

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06-04-2013, 10:32 AM
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Definitely consistency. His amazing start and crazy points came from early in the year when he was playing sheltered 3rd line minutes against poorer competition. When we moved him up towards the end of the year his point contribution dropped drastically.

That and Face-Offs, but a lot of new centers have this problem.

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06-04-2013, 10:34 AM
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If he keeps up the success he had (~70+ point pace, above average defence).

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06-04-2013, 10:41 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Lebanese Leaf View Post
In most roster discussions I've seen, most posters still don't think Kadri can be a #1C going forward. They still list #1C as this team's biggest need, and point to the need for trading for one instead of penciling in Kadri. His offensive outbreak this year was undeniable, putting up 44 points in 48 games with very little PP time. His defensive game came a long way as well, and he was even used on the PK on some occasions. His physical game was very impressive, finishing with 62 hits this season, good for 6th among Leaf forwards, while having some highlight reel hits in there too.

His faceoffs do need a lot of work, but so did Malkin's when he first broke into the league, so it's not unfathomable to think he could improve in that area in the off-season. Strength will also improve more with physical maturity.

IMO he is not getting enough credit for his breakout season among most posters around here. I think we have to give him a chance to slot into the #1 C position next year next to Lupul and Kessel, because he could very well be the answer to our biggest problem since Sundin left.

Thoughts?
Kadri's success was due in part to sheltered 3rd line minutes matched up against other teams depth opposition on a nightly basis.

This put Kads in a position to be successful. When Grabovski moved down and Kadri up he wasn't statistically as effective anymore as he was in the past.

Going head to head against Bergeron and against Chara will have a different effect that we do not know how well that will work out.. The face-off dot going against top opposition is also an area of concern as a #1 C.

You don't know until you try, however its a gamble that might cost the Leafs a playoff spot if Kadri can't fill the role.

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06-04-2013, 10:42 AM
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Kadri showed this past season what he is cabable of, if his play improves this coming season, he has a shot at #1 C. He definately needs more consistancy.

IMO he gets more than enough credit from posters.

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06-04-2013, 10:46 AM
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In my opinion, Kadri needs to do two things to be considered our number one centre going forward:

1. Have another productive year statistically ( at least 65 points over an 82 game season)

2. Drastically improve in the face-off circle. We saw with the absence of Bozak what can happen to a team if they are below average at the faceoff dot. It was downright ugly.

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06-04-2013, 10:48 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tbone87 View Post
In my opinion, Kadri needs to do two things to be considered our number one centre going forward:

1. Have another productive year statistically ( at least 65 points over an 82 game season)

2. Drastically improve in the face-off circle. We saw with the absence of Bozak what can happen to a team if they are below average at the faceoff dot. It was downright ugly.
I agree with this post. This is what I would want to see.

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06-04-2013, 10:49 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tbone87 View Post
In my opinion, Kadri needs to do two things to be considered our number one centre going forward:

1. Have another productive year statistically ( at least 65 points over an 82 game season)

2. Drastically improve in the face-off circle. We saw with the absence of Bozak what can happen to a team if they are below average at the faceoff dot. It was downright ugly.
Bozak was getting shredded in the faceoffdot too.

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06-04-2013, 10:52 AM
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Bozak firstly needs to leave in order for kadri to attain that #1C spot, as long as Bozo bozak is here kadri will nvr get a shot

Secondly, his producion decreased during the 2nd half of the season but i would contribute that to him playing with awful wingers (komarov/macarthur and post-injury frattin and orr).

Slot kadri inbetween jvr and kessel he will produce alot more.

And hes gotta improve faceoffs

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06-04-2013, 10:53 AM
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Bozak was getting shredded in the faceoffdot too.
Which is where the need for a proven #1 Center comes from, because internally Leafs don't have what it takes.

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06-04-2013, 11:03 AM
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He was on a 75 point pace this season in his first full year in the NHL. Why would you be surprised to see him repeat or even improve on that?

Also, by your definition, there would only be about 10 #1Cs in the entire league.
How so?

By the ~75 points criteria: Crosby, Toews, Malkin, Stamkos, Spezza, Tavares, Staal, Getzlaf, Datsyuk, Thornton, Backstrom, Giroux (he's mostly playing wing now thouhg I think), Sedin, all regularly put up around ~75 points. Sometimes 5-10 points higher, sometimes 5-10 points lower. But their average is closer to 75 as opposed to their maximum being close to 75.

Then guys like Bergeron, Backes, Koivu, Kesler, Couture, etc all put up 60+ points and close to Selke (or actual Selke) calibre defensive play. Their average point totals are above 60, with maximums closer to 75.

Looks like that's at least 18 names off the top of my head that fit that description.

As for Kadri and why I'm not absolutely convinced he'll be able to average ~75 points in this league? He was playing sheltered minutes and it was a small sample size. Ribeiro put up 49 points, Voracek 46, Ladd 46, Stepan 44, etc. So they were all on pace for 75+ points... do you think it's reasonable to expect that all four of those guys will average 75 points over an 82 game season?

I see Kadri as possibly having the same offence as guys like Bergeron/Backes, but not close to the same level of two-way play. Until he shows over an 82 game season, I'm not just going to assume that he's going to be a regular PPG threat against the oppositions best defencemen/shutdown units.

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06-04-2013, 11:04 AM
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Originally Posted by Mess View Post
Kadri's success was due in part to sheltered 3rd line minutes matched up against other teams depth opposition on a nightly basis.

This put Kads in a position to be successful. When Grabovski moved down and Kadri up he wasn't statistically as effective anymore as he was in the past.

Going head to head against Bergeron and against Chara will have a different effect that we do not know how well that will work out.. The face-off dot going against top opposition is also an area of concern as a #1 C.

You don't know until you try, however its a gamble that might cost the Leafs a playoff spot if Kadri can't fill the role.
But keep in mind he was getting very little PP time and little ice-time playing on the 3rd line. He was putting up points against the odds, and if given more ice-time, more PP time, and better line-mates, he will improve IMO.

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06-04-2013, 11:07 AM
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Originally Posted by 416Leafer View Post
How so?

By the ~75 points criteria: Crosby, Toews, Malkin, Stamkos, Spezza, Tavares, Staal, Getzlaf, Datsyuk, Thornton, Backstrom, Giroux (he's mostly playing wing now thouhg I think), Sedin, all regularly put up around ~75 points. Sometimes 5-10 points higher, sometimes 5-10 points lower. But their average is closer to 75 as opposed to their maximum being close to 75.

Then guys like Bergeron, Backes, Koivu, Kesler, Couture, etc all put up 60+ points and close to Selke (or actual Selke) calibre defensive play. Their average point totals are above 60, with maximums closer to 75.

Looks like that's at least 18 names off the top of my head that fit that description.

As for Kadri and why I'm not absolutely convinced he'll be able to average ~75 points in this league? He was playing sheltered minutes and it was a small sample size. Ribeiro put up 49 points, Voracek 46, Ladd 46, Stepan 44, etc. So they were all on pace for 75+ points... do you think it's reasonable to expect that all four of those guys will average 75 points over an 82 game season?

I see Kadri as possibly having the same offence as guys like Bergeron/Backes, but not close to the same level of two-way play. Until he shows over an 82 game season, I'm not just going to assume that he's going to be a regular PPG threat against the oppositions best defencemen/shutdown units.
None of those guys were playing in their first full season though. When a young player breaks out in his first full season, you generally view it as a positive sign of things to come, not a fluke year or anomaly. And like I said in my above post, Kadri was getting less ice-time and less PP time than anyone around him in the scoring standings.

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06-04-2013, 11:12 AM
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Originally Posted by 416Leafer View Post
How so?

By the ~75 points criteria: Crosby, Toews, Malkin, Stamkos, Spezza, Tavares, Staal, Getzlaf, Datsyuk, Thornton, Backstrom, Giroux (he's mostly playing wing now thouhg I think), Sedin, all regularly put up around ~75 points. Sometimes 5-10 points higher, sometimes 5-10 points lower. But their average is closer to 75 as opposed to their maximum being close to 75.

Then guys like Bergeron, Backes, Koivu, Kesler, Couture, etc all put up 60+ points and close to Selke (or actual Selke) calibre defensive play. Their average point totals are above 60, with maximums closer to 75.

Looks like that's at least 18 names off the top of my head that fit that description.

As for Kadri and why I'm not absolutely convinced he'll be able to average ~75 points in this league? He was playing sheltered minutes and it was a small sample size. Ribeiro put up 49 points, Voracek 46, Ladd 46, Stepan 44, etc. So they were all on pace for 75+ points... do you think it's reasonable to expect that all four of those guys will average 75 points over an 82 game season?

I see Kadri as possibly having the same offence as guys like Bergeron/Backes, but not close to the same level of two-way play. Until he shows over an 82 game season, I'm not just going to assume that he's going to be a regular PPG threat against the oppositions best defencemen/shutdown units.
So what do you recommend we do,

1) Blow up the team and trade away valuable players/prospects/picks for a #1C

2) Tank hardcore next season, get 1st overall and draft Connor Mcdavid

3) Let our young players develop and slowly mend Kadri into that #1C hole

In my opinion, its obvious what the best course of action is.

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06-04-2013, 11:14 AM
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Win more draws, play more minutes and continue the rest of his mid-season play last year.

He's actually close, he's reliable defensively, dynamic offensively, physical and energetic. If he's given the minutes and works to be about 50-55% on the draws, he's a #1C.

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06-04-2013, 11:19 AM
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Originally Posted by LeafsWantStanley View Post
So what do you recommend we do,

1) Blow up the team and trade away valuable players/prospects/picks for a #1C

2) Tank hardcore next season, get 1st overall and draft Connor Mcdavid

3) Let our young players develop and slowly mend Kadri into that #1C hole

In my opinion, its obvious what the best course of action is.
My opinion is to not blindly expect that Kadri is a franchise centre, as some people in this thread are suggesting. I think he can be a very integral piece to a winning team. But I still think longterm we'll have to find an upgrade over him for the #1 spot.

There's no easy answer. There's no expected help coming internally, unless you think Colborne/McKegg or someone else are legitimate franchise centre prospects.

Where we're drafting this year, it's highly highly unlikely that we get a PPG type of centre. But I DO think it's possible to grab an elite two-way centre, considering where guys like Kesler, Bergeron, Backes, etc have gone in the draft compared to the Crosbys/Malkins/Stamkos' of the world.

I think Horvat/Lazar have the most potential out of the second tier centres in the current draft. So if we could trade up to get one of them, I'd be pretty happy.

I do find it hilarious though that if someone points out that they don't think Kadri is a franchise centre, your response is to turn on them and say that it means they MUST want to blow the whole team up or try and tank. If I don't think Gardiner is the next Niedermayer (as many posters have suggested), does that mean I want to tank as well?

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