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Chi-Phi trade involving Esche

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05-25-2005, 08:28 PM
  #1
Gardebut30
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Chi-Phi trade involving Esche

Interested to hear Philly fans, and whoever, comment on where the goaltending situation is going in Philadelphia. Is Nittymaki going to back up Esche next year? Possibly take over the reigns? I know it would probably be risky to move a good goalie before seeing what Nittymaki can do in the NHL, but he is tearing up the AHL - regular season and playoffs. Maybe a Kiprusoff clone or better, who knows.

Anyway, I'm tired of Thibault. He's a great guy, but I feel he wears down too easily, maybe cuz our D suck. Mercury, the poster, was trying to deal Handzus to us on the Hawk board, so I thought I'd try to deal Daze to you. He said you needed LWs.

PHI: Daze, pick(s), goalie prospect, Anderson or Leighton

CHI: Esche

I'm taking into consideration here contract costs for the goalies, not length. Not sure if either run past this year.

Just wondering.

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05-25-2005, 08:35 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by gardebut30
Interested to hear Philly fans, and whoever, comment on where the goaltending situation is going in Philadelphia. Is Nittymaki going to back up Esche next year? Possibly take over the reigns? I know it would probably be risky to move a good goalie before seeing what Nittymaki can do in the NHL, but he is tearing up the AHL - regular season and playoffs. Maybe a Kiprusoff clone or better, who knows.

Anyway, I'm tired of Thibault. He's a great guy, but I feel he wears down too easily, maybe cuz our D suck. Mercury, the poster, was trying to deal Handzus to us on the Hawk board, so I thought I'd try to deal Daze to you. He said you needed LWs.

PHI: Daze, pick(s), goalie prospect, Anderson or Leighton

CHI: Esche

I'm taking into consideration here contract costs for the goalies, not length. Not sure if either run past this year.

Just wondering.
didn't Daze have 2 back surgeries just last season?He's going to have to play and show he's put the injuries behind him,before anyone will offer up something of value for him.

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05-25-2005, 08:52 PM
  #3
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If we were to even think about trading Esche (which we're not) I would want something like this:


To Chi:
Esche
low draft pick


to Phi:
Steve McCarthy
Michael Leighton



I would like to see how exactly you would get rid of Jocelyn Thibault (if he isn't a UFA).

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05-25-2005, 09:03 PM
  #4
Gardebut30
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Quote:
Originally Posted by go kim johnsson
If we were to even think about trading Esche (which we're not) I would want something like this:


To Chi:
Esche
low draft pick


to Phi:
Steve McCarthy
Michael Leighton



I would like to see how exactly you would get rid of Jocelyn Thibault (if he isn't a UFA).
I don't know how we would get rid of Thibault, considering I said I don't know his contract situation, plus, what the new CBA will bring with UFA ages and salary caps. Just speculating.

I like McCarthy, but I would do that deal.

I was proposing this because I wanted to see what you thought of your goaltending situation and where it would be once play started again.

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05-25-2005, 10:12 PM
  #5
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I'd make the deal for Leights and Stevey in a second. I'd even be comfortable with sending a pick back and taking yours out.

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Old
05-25-2005, 10:26 PM
  #6
sensens
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Quote:
Originally Posted by gardebut30
I don't know how we would get rid of Thibault, considering I said I don't know his contract situation, plus, what the new CBA will bring with UFA ages and salary caps. Just speculating.
If you got someone like Esche, I'm pretty sure Muckler would be interested in Thibault.

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05-25-2005, 10:28 PM
  #7
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If NHL GMs were replaced by HF posters, my Isles might actually have a chance to win the Cup next year.

Why?

Because HF posters put soooo much undeserved stock in prospects. And it sometimes seems like no one cares much about winning the Cup. A bonafide Cup contender like the Flyers is NOT going to base their chances next season on the TOTALLY UNPROVEN Nittymaki.

Nittymaki could be Kiprusoff...Esche is a solid NHL goalie.

The Flyers chances to capture the Cup is respectable with Esche in net. With a rookie it is demonstrably less.

Tell Roenick, LeClair and the rest of vets that the team is moving its #1 netminder and pinning its championship hopes on the 100 year-old Burke (if re-signed), and two newbies in net (Nittymaki and whoever they get from Chicago)...Then see their reaction.


Last edited by Trottier: 05-25-2005 at 10:33 PM.
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Old
05-25-2005, 10:40 PM
  #8
salty justice
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I wouldnt want to make a move for a better goaltender for atleast a couple of years. Although, Mac and Leights would be a deal that I would do.

I think we should just stick with Thibault for one more season, hope that Leighton or Anderson show they are ready for the number one spot and just play our future #1, Crawford, in Norfolk until he is ready (1 or 2 years).

That way we could deal Thibault at the deadline to a contender, and maybe deal Leighton or Anderson as well shortly after and not get a goaltender in return. Id rather make trades to give us more offense over the next couple of years than get a slight upgrade in goal that could maybe squeeze us into an 8th seed.

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Old
05-25-2005, 10:52 PM
  #9
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The deal makes no sense for both teams and the original poster didn't even offer near enough for possibly the cheapest starting goaltender in the league in a salary cap enviroment. Esche is young and proven now so I can't see why we'd even consider dealing him. Oh yeah, I think Niittymaki is gonna give him a run for his money in the 05-06 season but Esche will start in the playoffs.

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05-26-2005, 12:12 AM
  #10
Gardebut30
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Quote:
Originally Posted by easton122
The deal makes no sense for both teams and the original poster didn't even offer near enough for possibly the cheapest starting goaltender in the league in a salary cap enviroment. Esche is young and proven now so I can't see why we'd even consider dealing him. Oh yeah, I think Niittymaki is gonna give him a run for his money in the 05-06 season but Esche will start in the playoffs.
Why do you think I posted this? Because he is young and cheap, like you say. Thibault is like 3.1 MIL a year. I think Nittymaki is cheap too, below a MIL.

If the deal makes no sense, tell me why. I'm not saying what Chicago offers is completely fair, but please elaborate.

Of course I didn't offer near as much. When you sit down to bargain, do you lay out your ace(s) first? No! It's not like what we say here actually takes place, so calm down and answer the question.

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05-26-2005, 12:20 AM
  #11
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!

Quote:
Originally Posted by Trottier
If NHL GMs were replaced by HF posters, my Isles might actually have a chance to win the Cup next year.

Why?

Because HF posters put soooo much undeserved stock in prospects. And it sometimes seems like no one cares much about winning the Cup. A bonafide Cup contender like the Flyers is NOT going to base their chances next season on the TOTALLY UNPROVEN Nittymaki.

Nittymaki could be Kiprusoff...Esche is a solid NHL goalie.

The Flyers chances to capture the Cup is respectable with Esche in net. With a rookie it is demonstrably less.

Tell Roenick, LeClair and the rest of vets that the team is moving its #1 netminder and pinning its championship hopes on the 100 year-old Burke (if re-signed), and two newbies in net (Nittymaki and whoever they get from Chicago)...Then see their reaction.
please, CALM DOWN!

I was asking. Was Esche a big time vet before last year's playoffs? Was Kiprusoff? My my...

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Old
05-26-2005, 12:26 AM
  #12
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Trottier
If NHL GMs were replaced by HF posters, my Isles might actually have a chance to win the Cup next year.

Why?

Because HF posters put soooo much undeserved stock in prospects. And it sometimes seems like no one cares much about winning the Cup. A bonafide Cup contender like the Flyers is NOT going to base their chances next season on the TOTALLY UNPROVEN Nittymaki.

Nittymaki could be Kiprusoff...Esche is a solid NHL goalie.

The Flyers chances to capture the Cup is respectable with Esche in net. With a rookie it is demonstrably less.

Tell Roenick, LeClair and the rest of vets that the team is moving its #1 netminder and pinning its championship hopes on the 100 year-old Burke (if re-signed), and two newbies in net (Nittymaki and whoever they get from Chicago)...Then see their reaction.
sticky time!

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Old
05-26-2005, 12:48 AM
  #13
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Quote:
Originally Posted by gardebut30
If the deal makes no sense, tell me why. I'm not saying what Chicago offers is completely fair, but please elaborate.
While I'm sure the poster can speak for himself, I was going to say, as well, that the deal makes no sense for the Flyers.

Right now, the Flyers are in a contending mode, not rebuilding mode. While Esche hasn't been a mainstay starter for many years, he showed last season that he was able to handle the #1 job. Nittymaki has only played 3 NHL games.

Before a contending team relies on a rookie to carry them to a cup, they have to be sure the rookie can at least handle the workload. Esche would certainly help Chicago, but Philadelphia would be shooting themselves in the foot if they dealt him that soon.

When a contender trades with a rebuilder, the rebuilder usually deals the more bonafide players and the contender deals the picks.

If Chicago wants to get a goalie, they should either try to yank away a contender's unproven or backup goalie (like Calgary from San Jose or LA from Montreal) or try to deal one asset to another rebuilding team for their goalie.

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Old
05-26-2005, 01:14 AM
  #14
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Trottier
If NHL GMs were replaced by HF posters, my Isles might actually have a chance to win the Cup next year.

Why?

Because HF posters put soooo much undeserved stock in prospects. And it sometimes seems like no one cares much about winning the Cup. A bonafide Cup contender like the Flyers is NOT going to base their chances next season on the TOTALLY UNPROVEN Nittymaki.

Nittymaki could be Kiprusoff...Esche is a solid NHL goalie.

The Flyers chances to capture the Cup is respectable with Esche in net. With a rookie it is demonstrably less.

Tell Roenick, LeClair and the rest of vets that the team is moving its #1 netminder and pinning its championship hopes on the 100 year-old Burke (if re-signed), and two newbies in net (Nittymaki and whoever they get from Chicago)...Then see their reaction.
I don't necesssarily disagree with what you are saying, but I think the inclination to make this deal from Philadelphia's end is if they don't feel a "solid" goalie is going to cut it any more, and are hoping Nittymaki is something more than that. I think they would be better off keeping Esche, and then if Nittymaki looks like the real deal and they are confident in him, shipping Esche off at the trading deadline to load up for the playoffs.

And I also think they can do better than guys like Daze or McCarthy.

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Old
05-26-2005, 01:16 AM
  #15
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Epsilon
I don't necesssarily disagree with what you are saying, but I think the inclination to make this deal from Philadelphia's end is if they don't feel a "solid" goalie is going to cut it any more, and are hoping Nittymaki is something more than that. I think they would be better off keeping Esche, and then if Nittymaki looks like the real deal and they are confident in him, shipping Esche off at the trading deadline to load up for the playoffs.

And I also think they can do better than guys like Daze or McCarthy.
The way Esche came up huge in the World Cup and the playoffs, he is more than "solid."

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Old
05-26-2005, 01:18 AM
  #16
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Muckler

Quote:
Originally Posted by sensens
If you got someone like Esche, I'm pretty sure Muckler would be interested in Thibault.
Muckler would not have any interest in Thibault. The Sens need a top goaltender, and as far as I'm concerned Lalime was better than Thibault nearly every season, and certainly in the playoffs. Thibault hasn't proven that he's a good goaltender for a contender, only that he's an above average goaltender for a non-contender.

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05-26-2005, 06:58 AM
  #17
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Esche is an underrated goaltender, I think, at least among fans. I doubt Philly has any intention of dealing him whatsoever, and if they did, the return would be much higher than that in the original poster's proposal. They are likely happy with the progress of their goalie prospect, but that is a far cry from saying he will take over anytime soon. Esche is their #1, now and for the next couple of years at least.

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05-26-2005, 07:26 AM
  #18
Dr Love
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Trottier
Tell Roenick, LeClair and the rest of vets that the team is moving its #1 netminder and pinning its championship hopes on the 100 year-old Burke (if re-signed), and two newbies in net (Nittymaki and whoever they get from Chicago)...Then see their reaction.
Tell LeClair whatever you want, he's going to be bought out, along with Burke.

Couldn't agree more though.

Niitymaki is defineately going to be given opportunity to show what he can do. Earlier in the year, Clarke stated that if there was a shortened season that Esche would probably not be the starter right away, because he wasn't playing and Frank was. But that also speaks to the confidence they have in Niitymaki. But Esche is proven, Frank isn't.

Not only that, but Esche doesn't make much, which could be important for next season.

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05-26-2005, 09:17 AM
  #19
sensens
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sens4Cup
Muckler would not have any interest in Thibault. The Sens need a top goaltender, and as far as I'm concerned Lalime was better than Thibault nearly every season, and certainly in the playoffs. Thibault hasn't proven that he's a good goaltender for a contender, only that he's an above average goaltender for a non-contender.
Don't confuse what you think Ottawa needs with what Muckler might be interested in. I didn't say that he'd necessarily be our best option, or that Muckler would sell the Earth to get him, but I think there would certainly be interest. And that business about being a good goaltender for a contender, I don't even know what the means anymore. The number of quality goaltenders that are excluded in that statement makes it a pretty suspect qualifier on who might be an option as a #1 in Ottawa.

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05-26-2005, 12:45 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dr Love
Tell LeClair whatever you want, he's going to be bought out, along with Burke.

Couldn't agree more though.

Niitymaki is defineately going to be given opportunity to show what he can do. Earlier in the year, Clarke stated that if there was a shortened season that Esche would probably not be the starter right away, because he wasn't playing and Frank was. But that also speaks to the confidence they have in Niitymaki. But Esche is proven, Frank isn't.

Not only that, but Esche doesn't make much, which could be important for next season.
Esche is an RFA, so that has to be worked out. He is due for a substantial pay increase, how much depends on how they structure the new CBA, but dont expect he will be making anything close to the 500K or so he made last season.

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05-26-2005, 02:33 PM
  #21
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Just keep in mind that Clarke said Nitty would be the #1 when the NHL came back, because he's in game shape.

I do however highly doubt that Philly would trade Esche after the clinic he put on last year in the playoffs. He's the reason they got past the 1st round.


And another thing, i think he would garner a lot more.

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05-26-2005, 04:05 PM
  #22
Trottier
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Quote:
Originally Posted by gardebut30
please, CALM DOWN!

I was asking. Was Esche a big time vet before last year's playoffs? Was Kiprusoff? My my...
Hey, nothing personal, and it makes sense from Chicago's POV.

Was simply suggesting that even if the "talent exchange" seems relatively even, there is no rationale for Philly, assuming they have their sights set on winning (in the present tense).

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dr Love
Tell LeClair whatever you want, he's going to be bought out, along with Burke.

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05-26-2005, 04:27 PM
  #23
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MojoJojo
Esche is an RFA, so that has to be worked out. He is due for a substantial pay increase, how much depends on how they structure the new CBA, but dont expect he will be making anything close to the 500K or so he made last season.
True. But, I doubt he'll get a boatload in arbitration, so he'll still be on the cheap compared to his peers.

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Old
05-26-2005, 04:34 PM
  #24
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I think I was at John LeClair's last great performance, a 4-goal explosion at the Centre Bell in October 2002. Hooray for John LeClair until 2002-03!

P.S. That was the infamous game during which my friends and I held up signs saying "54-40 OR FIGHT!" snd "MOM AND DAD - SEND MONEY!" Perhaps the wildest trip to a foreign land I've had, which is saying a lot.

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05-26-2005, 04:52 PM
  #25
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I'm not sure how much better Esche is than Thibault. Esche did pretty well last season but didn't knock anyone's socks off before that. He also did pretty well in the playoffs but still had some not so great games. I guess it depends where one projects him. Is he going to get better ? I'm not sure. He seems like a nice enough guy and a great price performance. I'd say that he's around top 20 for me among NHL goalies. And I'd guess Thibault's somewhere around there too.

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