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Chi-Phi trade involving Esche

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Old
05-26-2005, 05:54 PM
  #26
easton122
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Quote:
Originally Posted by gardebut30
Why do you think I posted this? Because he is young and cheap, like you say. Thibault is like 3.1 MIL a year. I think Nittymaki is cheap too, below a MIL.

If the deal makes no sense, tell me why. I'm not saying what Chicago offers is completely fair, but please elaborate.

Of course I didn't offer near as much. When you sit down to bargain, do you lay out your ace(s) first? No! It's not like what we say here actually takes place, so calm down and answer the question.
I have no idea why you posted this because since he is young and cheap the Flyers wouldn't think about dealing him because he fills the goalie spot perfectly. The Flyers have to worry about a salary cap as of right now the Hawks don't.

Eric Daze is worth a draft choice. He has serious back problems and hasn't played good hockey in years. The Flyers already have John LeClair who is big, less injury prone, and more reliable besides having a huge contract that is hopefully reworked or he'll just get bought out. No way we buyout LeClair and deal for Daze though.

LOL... lay out your aces? You're not negotiating an actual trade here buddy. You're suggesting a possible deal. If you want to be taken serious put a little more thought into a serious offer that the Flyers would possibly consider. They're are tons of better options in net for Chicago all around the league. You may have picked the worst.

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Old
05-26-2005, 06:16 PM
  #27
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I still think LeClair's production vs. his contract is probably not as good as Daze's performance vs. his contract, but I guess it's a lateral move. LeClair's back is worrisome, too.

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05-26-2005, 06:37 PM
  #28
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mercury
I still think LeClair's production vs. his contract is probably not as good as Daze's performance vs. his contract, but I guess it's a lateral move. LeClair's back is worrisome, too.
LeClair is able to play though. I don't think he has missed a game due to his back since 01-02 actually. 02-03 he dislocated his shoulder and 03-04 he broke his foot for a few games. He is having a surgery to actually improve the strength in his back (not because he needs it). Hopefully that helps him regain his shot and improves his current slap shot.

Daze's production with his contract might be better but why trade for someone like him when you already have LeClair, even if Daze is better.

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05-26-2005, 06:47 PM
  #29
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Quote:
Originally Posted by easton122
LeClair is able to play though. I don't think he has missed a game due to his back since 01-02 actually. 02-03 he dislocated his shoulder and 03-04 he broke his foot for a few games.
To add to that, one of those, if not both, were on blatant penalties. I recall his shoulder dislocation being a cheap play (against either Tampa or Pittsburgh if memory serves me correctly). I don't remember how he broke his foot, because IIRC someone else also broke their foot that season (Kapanen?), one of them by a puck in practice, the other I believe in another cheap play. Not to make excuses for LeClair though... he's playing with a fork in his back and is deadweight.

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Old
05-26-2005, 07:20 PM
  #30
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Quote:
Originally Posted by pavel datsyuk
Just keep in mind that Clarke said Nitty would be the #1 when the NHL came back, because he's in game shape.
I doubt that has much validity anymore unless next season starts late. If the season starts on time, Esche will hopefully at least get to go through camp, so any conditioning advantage Niitty had will be pretty unnoticeable.

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Old
05-26-2005, 08:28 PM
  #31
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dr Love
To add to that, one of those, if not both, were on blatant penalties. I recall his shoulder dislocation being a cheap play (against either Tampa or Pittsburgh if memory serves me correctly). I don't remember how he broke his foot, because IIRC someone else also broke their foot that season (Kapanen?), one of them by a puck in practice, the other I believe in another cheap play. Not to make excuses for LeClair though... he's playing with a fork in his back and is deadweight.
He dislocated his shoulder in a cheap play when he was pushed into the boards against Pittsburgh. He broke his foot blocking a shot in preseason last year.

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05-26-2005, 08:34 PM
  #32
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Thibault never gets enough credit for being as good as he is. If given a merely adequate defence and a backup goalie, he would be considered a damn fine tender.

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05-26-2005, 10:50 PM
  #33
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Quote:
Originally Posted by cleduc
I'm not sure how much better Esche is than Thibault. Esche did pretty well last season but didn't knock anyone's socks off before that. He also did pretty well in the playoffs but still had some not so great games. I guess it depends where one projects him. Is he going to get better ? I'm not sure. He seems like a nice enough guy and a great price performance. I'd say that he's around top 20 for me among NHL goalies. And I'd guess Thibault's somewhere around there too.
Colour me surprised that you aren't impressed by yet another Philly player, that you aren't sure he's going to get any better and that you rank him around top 20 despite being a final 4 goalie in the most recent season and beating out 2 goalies who I'm sure you rate much higher than that. Yep, I'm completely surprised by ALL of that.

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05-26-2005, 11:21 PM
  #34
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Quote:
Originally Posted by easton122
I have no idea why you posted this because since he is young and cheap the Flyers wouldn't think about dealing him because he fills the goalie spot perfectly. The Flyers have to worry about a salary cap as of right now the Hawks don't.

Eric Daze is worth a draft choice. He has serious back problems and hasn't played good hockey in years. The Flyers already have John LeClair who is big, less injury prone, and more reliable besides having a huge contract that is hopefully reworked or he'll just get bought out. No way we buyout LeClair and deal for Daze though.

LOL... lay out your aces? You're not negotiating an actual trade here buddy. You're suggesting a possible deal. If you want to be taken serious put a little more thought into a serious offer that the Flyers would possibly consider. They're are tons of better options in net for Chicago all around the league. You may have picked the worst.
I said that because when deals or proposals on here are suggested, posters tend to negotiate deals to try to even it out. No **** I'm not making an actual deal here. Read my posts. I was wondering about how Philly fans felt about their goaltending situation. A few nice Philly fans, and non-Philly fans, posted intelligently. You border on insult. But that's OK. Be an ass.

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Old
05-26-2005, 11:25 PM
  #35
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Quote:
Originally Posted by salzy
Colour me surprised that you aren't impressed by yet another Philly player, that you aren't sure he's going to get any better and that you rank him around top 20 despite being a final 4 goalie in the most recent season and beating out 2 goalies who I'm sure you rate much higher than that. Yep, I'm completely surprised by ALL of that.
I do like the guy as a personality. And I defended him last season when Hackett was brought on the scene to be given a chance that I think he deserved. To his credit, he did pretty well with that chance but when I checked the boxscores or watched the games, it said Flyers vs Other Team. Your buddy, Juicer ripped him pretty good during the playoffs.

We've seen several NHL goalies have a good season or two and taper off. Esche is 27 and finally had a decent NHL season after many not so good ones. I think it is reasonable to take the position of "will he get to the next level (which he needs to), stay the same or fall back ?". I cannot rank him ahead of many more established/proven goalies just because he had one decent season behind a good team. I've seen too many of them fall back (ie Cechmanek in the playoffs who you touted as a good pressure goalie or JS Giguere's drop or Garth Snow or Byron Dafoe, etc)

Here's the '97 list for top goalies in save%
1. Dominik Hasek Buf .937 (1758/1877)
2. Byron Dafoe Bos .926 (1667/1800)
3. Ron Tugnutt Ott .925 (930/1005)
4. Arturs Irbe Car .923 (1618/1753)
5. Nikolai Khabibulin Pho .923 (1551/1681)
6. Guy Hebert Anh .922 (1949/2114)
7. Steve Shields SJ .921 (931/1011)
8. Patrick Roy Col .917 (1534/1673)
9. Jamie Storr LA .916 (663/724)
10. Ed Belfour Dal .915 (1256/1373)
11. Fred Brathwaite Cgy .915 (728/796)
12. Stephane Fiset LA .915 (1113/1217)
13. Mike Vernon SJ .911 (1093/1200)
14. Mike Richter NYR .910 (1728/1898)
15. Curtis Joseph Tor .910 (1732/1903)
16. Chris Osgood Det .910 (1505/1654)
17. Mike Dunham Nsh .908 (1260/1387)
18. Tomas Vokoun Nsh .908 (945/1041)

A few of them suffered a fall in their stock since their great/decent season and it wasn't merely due to age for several of them.

I'm not saying Esche can't improve. I am saying there's enough of a past on short windows of good goaltending that I would be cautious before assuming that he'll get better. The best I can say is he might. I could also say that he might not or he might fall back to a backup. I think that is a fair assessment.

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05-26-2005, 11:35 PM
  #36
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If Philly fans think the proposal is insane, fine. Daze could slip on a banana peel tomorrow and hurt his back. Who knows. Also, Esche, though I love him, had one good season, playoffs, and World Cup. Does that spell for sure success? No. But that does take his stock up. Is he your goalie of the future? That's what I want to know.

Jim Carey for the Caps seemed promising. What happened to him? Just wondering if you might want to trade a valuable asset while you have it.

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05-26-2005, 11:36 PM
  #37
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I think we are gonna ride Esche out. And if he crashes at some point, Nitty should pick up the slack.

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05-26-2005, 11:47 PM
  #38
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Quote:
Originally Posted by gardebut30
I said that because when deals or proposals on here are suggested, posters tend to negotiate deals to try to even it out. No **** I'm not making an actual deal here. Read my posts. I was wondering about how Philly fans felt about their goaltending situation. A few nice Philly fans, and non-Philly fans, posted intelligently. You border on insult. But that's OK. Be an ass.
You're the one getting too defensive other the fact you made a bad proposal. If you want to post on the boards be ready to take criticism. If you think I'm an ass for telling you how it is.... so be it.

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Old
05-27-2005, 12:00 AM
  #39
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Quote:
Originally Posted by gardebut30
If Philly fans think the proposal is insane, fine. Daze could slip on a banana peel tomorrow and hurt his back. Who knows. Also, Esche, though I love him, had one good season, playoffs, and World Cup. Does that spell for sure success? No. But that does take his stock up. Is he your goalie of the future? That's what I want to know.

Jim Carey for the Caps seemed promising. What happened to him? Just wondering if you might want to trade a valuable asset while you have it.

Yeah but you're offering possibly damaged goods for that valuable trade asset.

Daze played in 19 games in 2003-04,had a couple of back surgeries.You're posting as if only a freak injury would take him out of the lineup.

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05-27-2005, 12:03 AM
  #40
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Quote:
Originally Posted by cleduc
he did pretty well with that chance but when I checked the boxscores or watched the games, it said Flyers vs Other Team.


Quote:
Originally Posted by cleduc
Your buddy, Juicer ripped him pretty good during the playoffs.
Juicer doesn't have a historically proven agenda of bashing all thing Flyer, now does he?

Quote:
Originally Posted by cleduc
(ie Cechmanek in the playoffs who you touted as a good pressure goalie
What a farce.

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Old
05-27-2005, 12:09 AM
  #41
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CREW99AW
Yeah but you're offering possibly damaged goods for that valuable trade asset.

Daze played in 19 games in 2003-04,had a couple of back surgeries.You're posting as if only a freak injury would take him out of the lineup.
What I am trying to ***** is what you said. A "valuable trade asset". I wanted to know what he's worth to Philly (Esche).

As a Hawk fan I know Daze's back is a pretzel, read my first post, mercury-the poster-asked about him. That's why I offered. I don't care if you chew me apart for this deal. Sometimes you offer a deal to ***** the value of someone. Is that too strange?

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05-27-2005, 12:13 AM
  #42
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Originally Posted by CREW99AW
You're posting as if only a freak injury would take him out of the lineup.
I usually read posts instead of post, so I'm sorry if I'm so academic here. But that statement is stupid. Tell me where I came close to suggesting that?

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05-27-2005, 12:27 AM
  #43
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This is for the remark about Silent Bob's numbers. He hasn't posted fantastic numbers in the past, that is true. This has to do with the caliber of player he is (duh), if he's with a shoddy team he doesn't have the raw talent to completely dominate it like Brodeur or Hasek used to. His stats can be influenced by whatever team he was on, additionally he was almost always the back up. This year he had a good team infront of him and had a chance to become the number one so he took it. He's not the best goalie but he's a number one that can stay healthy when it counts *cough* Cloutier.

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05-27-2005, 08:03 AM
  #44
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Originally Posted by easton122
He dislocated his shoulder in a cheap play when he was pushed into the boards against Pittsburgh. He broke his foot blocking a shot in preseason last year.
Woo hoo, my memory has not failed me completely!

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05-27-2005, 08:48 AM
  #45
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Quote:
Originally Posted by salzy
Juicer doesn't have a historically proven agenda of bashing all thing Flyer, now does he?

Which is all the more relevant to his criticism of Esche, isn't it. May 13th/04:
Quote:
Originally Posted by juicer
I thought Burke should have been our starter going into the playoffs, and I thought I was mistaken when Esche got hot, but I think he was hot, and now has fallen back down to Earth. I hope I am wrong and he can bounce back, but this has not been one bad game, he has not looked good in any game in this series.
Sort of strange remarks to read about a top goalie in the league, aren't they (in a thread calling for Esche to be replaced) ? And I agree with Juicer: Esche was erratic, then hot for some of the playoffs and then erratic again.

Quote:
Originally Posted by salzy
What a farce.
No farce. Search TMLfans for posts by Salzy with "Cechmanek". There's plenty of golden quotes by you there on what a great goalie he is to rebutt others expressing concerns over his choking under pressure before he choked under pressure again and got shipped out of Philly.


Last edited by cleduc: 05-27-2005 at 12:26 PM.
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Old
05-27-2005, 01:43 PM
  #46
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Quote:
Originally Posted by gardebut30
If Philly fans think the proposal is insane, fine. Daze could slip on a banana peel tomorrow and hurt his back. Who knows. Also, Esche, though I love him, had one good season, playoffs, and World Cup. Does that spell for sure success? No. But that does take his stock up. Is he your goalie of the future? That's what I want to know.

Jim Carey for the Caps seemed promising. What happened to him? Just wondering if you might want to trade a valuable asset while you have it.
I'm not a Flyer fan, so I can't speak on how Flyer fans feel...

But the deal, at THIS point in time, doesn't make sense. Philly is a contender for the cup, and it's irresponsible management to trade the goalie who took them far into the playoffs for a backup and an injury prone veteran.

Add that he's one of the cheapest starting goalies amidst a salary cap discussion, and a team that already has several million dedicated to a select few players; Esche is one of the last players they'd want to move at this time. And if they were to move him, it would have to be a deal that would significantly increase their chances of winning the cup.

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05-27-2005, 03:16 PM
  #47
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Quote:
Originally Posted by gardebut30
I usually read posts instead of post, so I'm sorry if I'm so academic here. But that statement is stupid. Tell me where I came close to suggesting that?

You posted that Daze could slip on a banana and hurt his back.As far as I can see, his back is already banged up,a big question mark after those 2 surgeries.

Would you really be surprised,if Daze went out of the lineup for another extended period because of his back?I wouldn't.

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05-27-2005, 03:23 PM
  #48
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Quote:
Originally Posted by gardebut30
What I am trying to ***** is what you said. A "valuable trade asset". I wanted to know what he's worth to Philly (Esche).

As a Hawk fan I know Daze's back is a pretzel, read my first post, mercury-the poster-asked about him. That's why I offered. I don't care if you chew me apart for this deal. Sometimes you offer a deal to ***** the value of someone. Is that too strange?

I'm not trying to rag on you.I'm pointing out that Daze is coming off an injury filled season that saw him have back surgeries.His value has to be at the lowest point it's been in yrs.He has to prove he's fully over the back problems before anyone will offer up something valuable.

Especially Philly,which saw what LeClair's back surgeries did to his game.

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05-27-2005, 10:50 PM
  #49
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Quote:
Originally Posted by cleduc
Which is all the more relevant to his criticism of Esche, isn't it.
All it means is that is if he says that, it's how he truly feels. Since he doesn't have a proven track record of blindly bashing I believe he really feels that way and he's not just saying it because of a predisposition to do so like some people I know.

Quote:
Originally Posted by cleduc
No farce. Search TMLfans for posts by Salzy with "Cechmanek". There's plenty of golden quotes by you there on what a great goalie he is to rebutt others expressing concerns over his choking under pressure before he choked under pressure again and got shipped out of Philly.
WOW! Could you be any more vague? You make a claim like that, you best back it up. Obviously, you aren't going to do that because you know it's complete tripe. Of course, as is so often the case with you, you disguise it with another Flyer insult with no truth to it.

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05-27-2005, 11:38 PM
  #50
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Quote:
Originally Posted by cleduc
And I agree with Juicer: Esche was erratic, then hot for some of the playoffs and then erratic again.
What a suprise, you agree with me when I am hard on a Flyer player, but totally disagree when I give them credit for anything.

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