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What Do You Think That MacT Can Get In Return For Hemsky And Horcoff?

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06-08-2013, 04:06 AM
  #1
Bryanbryoil
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What Do You Think That MacT Can Get In Return For Hemsky And Horcoff?

Since it seems like both have played their last games as Oilers, it's time to make your opinion of their value made so that when the time comes we can grade MacT according to what we as individual posters feel like he can get in return for these two.

I'll start:

Horcoff-Any positive asset (pick/prospect that is more prospect than suspect/useful NHL player) would be considered a win given his cap hit for the two years and his actual salary next season. If we retain salary then I'd both be pissed and expect something tangible in return.

Hemsky-IMO this is the player that holds more value in spite of his injury woes. He can create offense on his own and could help a team that needs some offensive creativity in their lineup. Here's the kicker though, his actual salary next season will be $5.5 million, I have no idea why we would've structured the deal to pay more in the 2nd year if we were planning on moving him. That reeks of poor asset management and/or an owner that is trying to pass the buck to the next team IMO. IMO we will likely have to eat some of his salary to maximize his value which IMO would make sense in this situation. Teams that just missed out on being in the conference finals could be looking for a player like Hemsky to put them over the top especially if they don't like this years FA crop. IMO salary as is I'd hope for a 2nd rounder and a B prospect for him, any better and MacT does well for himself. If we eat some salary then I'd expect a fair bit more than that. A team like Ottawa could easily absorb Hemsky's cap hit and salary, so perhaps that would be his best fit? The Sens seem to churn out quality prospect after quality prospect so perhaps they'd be a favorable trading partner for us?

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06-08-2013, 04:15 AM
  #2
Kid Dynamite
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I would be all for trading Hemsky for a Malone or a Booth. A player of similar durability that can be more physical when healthy.

Horcoff on the other hand I just don't see us getting enough value to warrant trading him. He isn't a bad option on the third line, the only problem is his salary. I would rather just keep him as a third line C and strip him of his captaincy than move him for a late pick or a player of similar salary that is less valuable. I don't know why we would move him just for the sake of moving him. If we could move him at full cap hit and then sign someone like Bozak at somewhat less I would be all over that though.

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06-08-2013, 04:51 AM
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Going to be hard to gauge on this board because I think fans here will be polarized in either overrating (affinity after ~10yrs each of service) or underrating both (frustration with the last 5 years or so with both).

Main board thread has a lot more to offer IMO:

http://hfboards.hockeysfuture.com/sh....php?t=1442587

Look for ideas there.

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06-08-2013, 06:34 AM
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Horcoff - nothing. No one is going to take that contract, not even minimum cap teams. He's a buyout all the way and one of the reasons there are amnesty buyouts in the first place.

Hemsky - His value is unfortunately a lot lower than it would have been a few years ago, but if Mact is any kind of salesman, he should still be able to get a late first/early 2nds at the draft, or maybe a mid range(2nd pairing/3rd line) player while retaining some salary, it'll be a tough sell nonetheless.

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06-08-2013, 06:57 AM
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Bank Shot
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I will be pissed if the return on these two players is picks and prospects.

Its already 7 years out of the playoffs. Return for two NHL players needs to be 2+ other NHL players.

I'm sick of watching picks, prospects, and reclamation projects fail season after season after seaon after season.

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06-08-2013, 07:24 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bank Shot View Post
I will be pissed if the return on these two players is picks and prospects.

Its already 7 years out of the playoffs. Return for two NHL players needs to be 2+ other NHL players.

I'm sick of watching picks, prospects, and reclamation projects fail season after season after seaon after season.
That's what happens when you wait until ill-fitting assets completely bottom out in value, teams simply aren't going to give up NHL caliber players for them.

They keep running out unbalanced rosters with little regard to team makeup, throwing players into the grinder with little support, and are forced to toss the worthless asset they get on the other side right into the scrapheap - been at it since 2005 too.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kid Dynamite View Post
Horcoff on the other hand I just don't see us getting enough value to warrant trading him. He isn't a bad option on the third line, the only problem is his salary. I would rather just keep him as a third line C and strip him of his captaincy than move him for a late pick or a player of similar salary that is less valuable. I don't know why we would move him just for the sake of moving him. If we could move him at full cap hit and then sign someone like Bozak at somewhat less I would be all over that though.
He's not coming back.

Apparently already has his house up for sale, not to mention Mact pretty much implied that both players asked to be moved on.

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06-08-2013, 08:28 AM
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Well, not that a trade forum on HF where fans make suggestions is any indication at to how an actual GM would think, but I made a pitch that had positive feedback from PHX fans that involved Horcoff.

To PHX: Horcoff, 7th overall

To EDM: Vermette, 12th overall

Both are signed for 2 more years, Horc with a 5.5 hit, Vermette with a 3.75 hit, but Horcoff will actually be paid 500k less over that term. The only hang up seemed to be who is on the board at the time. I personally believe if Monahan is still there, we don't do it. If Nichushkin is there, they don't do it. If Lindholm is there, we have our perfect storm. Another variation suggested by PHX poster rt was us gaining a FLA 3rd rd pick and picking up 25% of Horcoffs salary. Again, I'd be OK with that. Vermette is a considerable upgrade on Horc as he's more productive offensively, just as good defensively (maybe better), one of the best face off men in the game and plays way more physical than Horcoff.

As for Hemsky, I've heard some Detroit fans say they would take him full price for a 2 nd rder. I'd be OK with that too. People need to sever memories of the near ppg dangling magician Hemsky if they expect more from him. He is an excellent PP guy, but at even strength he gives up as much as he creates (if not more) with turnovers at the opposition's blue line.

So basically if these deals took place we'd have a better 3rd line C, be on the hook for 1.375 of Horcs hit, and be picking at 12, 37, 48, 56, 61. 12 could be anyone of Horvat, Lazar, Nurse, Zadorov, Ristolainen or Pulock, all prospects I am fine with. What I do like is that with 4 picks from 37-61 we have the flexibility to trade up into the back end of the 1st but still have picks there to take a guy like Jarry.

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06-08-2013, 09:02 AM
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I think the best we can hope for is some bottom six players. With Mac T going public about Hemsky and Horcoff, their value is now pennies on the dollar. No way that either of these guys will want to come back after that. Horcoff will be a buyout and Hemsky will get 2 bottom six guys.

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06-08-2013, 09:10 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bank Shot View Post
I will be pissed if the return on these two players is picks and prospects.

Its already 7 years out of the playoffs. Return for two NHL players needs to be 2+ other NHL players.

I'm sick of watching picks, prospects, and reclamation projects fail season after season after seaon after season.
Exactly. For me to be happy with either trade, we would need to get:

Hemsky: Plain and simple, a third line center. A replacement for Horcoff. Who isn't old as dirt, and who can win faceoffs. Someone gritty and with size would be ideal, but as long as its a guy who we have for a few years and who can win some faceoffs, I'll be satisfied.

Horcoff: Pretty much any useful bottom six forward who can play every night without being a liability.

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06-08-2013, 09:15 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by shogun99 View Post
I think the best we can hope for is some bottom six players. With Mac T going public about Hemsky and Horcoff, their value is now pennies on the dollar. No way that either of these guys will want to come back after that. Horcoff will be a buyout and Hemsky will get 2 bottom six guys.
Can you explain why? I don't agree, everyone already knew both were going to be available this summer, including any General Manager who is doing their job. The media and fans now knowing won't have changed the need for a creative, speedy playmaking winger or experienced third line pk'ing center. I think we'll be a bit surprised at how well MacT does in moving them. Especially now that we could hold back salary if we wanted.

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06-08-2013, 09:53 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bank Shot View Post
I will be pissed if the return on these two players is picks and prospects.

Its already 7 years out of the playoffs. Return for two NHL players needs to be 2+ other NHL players.

I'm sick of watching picks, prospects, and reclamation projects fail season after season after seaon after season.
I think horcoff will be bought out.
i believe he has little to no trade value, especially with the cap hit for what you're getting.
if the oilers got a pick or prospect for horcoff, without paying part of his salary, I'd be elated.

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06-08-2013, 09:55 AM
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Hemsky will get us a gritty player of some kind, and i don't believe any GM out there is dumb enough to take on Horcoff's contract.

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06-08-2013, 09:57 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Chooch View Post
Hemsky will get us a gritty player of some kind, and i don't believe any GM out there is dumb enough to take on Horcoff's contract.
If you're a cap Floor team, paying Horcoff less then his cap hit isn't a horrible option for them.

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06-08-2013, 10:32 AM
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Hemsky will get something.

Horcoff will get nothing. He will likely get bought out.

Then he will sign with another team for dirt cheap, be a regular healthy scratch, and all his admirers will say, "but, but, he's serviceable...."

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06-08-2013, 10:48 AM
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I don't agree with the logic here. Horcoff is simply addition by subtraction. If the team rids themselves of his contract, they can probably sign two better bottom six players with the money saved. Same goes for Hemsky. The team mishandled him so poorly it was laughable. 2010 trade deadline he should have been moved for a an A prospect and a pick. If Penner returned a B prospect and a pick, Hemsky surely would have too. Now we've held on to him and allowed his value to reach an all time low so lets not make it worse. If they keep him for the next year and let him walk as a free agent, that will be a colossal failure. Anything at this point would suffice. It's time to move on.

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06-08-2013, 10:56 AM
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Originally Posted by Mr Forever View Post
I don't agree with the logic here. Horcoff is simply addition by subtraction. If the team rids themselves of his contract, they can probably sign two better bottom six players with the money saved. Same goes for Hemsky. The team mishandled him so poorly it was laughable. 2010 trade deadline he should have been moved for a an A prospect and a pick. If Penner returned a B prospect and a pick, Hemsky surely would have too. Now we've held on to him and allowed his value to reach an all time low so lets not make it worse. If they keep him for the next year and let him walk as a free agent, that will be a colossal failure. Anything at this point would suffice. It's time to move on.
No disrespect intended, but I don`t think you are on the mark at all. Having Horcoff`s cap hit is good, but he is a useful NHL player, and teams always need decent penalty killing forwards. Of course he is overpaid, but not to the extent that he has no value to other teams. He won`t be bought out, he will be moved for something, be it another team`s overpaid project player or a team`s 13th forward who may fit in better here.

As per Hemsky, if you recall, LA actually called about him, but we weren`t overly interested in trading him so the price was too high. Penner was a year away from being a UFA and not a part of the long term solution, so we moved him. Hemsky was viewed differently, and rightfully so. I`m also not sure that his value is actually at an all time low, I would guess that the season where he blew out his second shoulder was that point. Hemsky played pretty well until he busted his foot this year, and its a completely different injury to the ones he has had in the past, and one that any player can get at any time. He won`t bring us back a huge return either, not a first rounder, but I do believe that there will be enough interest in Hemsky for a few teams to want to take the risk and bring him in for the year, and will be willing to part with something we need going forward to do so. His combination of speed, puck carrying ability, and skill is rare, and will have some teams very interested.

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06-08-2013, 11:03 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Chooch View Post
Hemsky will get us a gritty player of some kind, and i don't believe any GM out there is dumb enough to take on Horcoff's contract.
Horcoff`s contract isn`t that bad. His actual salary is lower from his cap hit, and some teams could be all over that, especially if we take some salary back or eat some of Horc`s salary. Teams like Phoenix could be all over Horcoff. Just not for a huge return.

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06-08-2013, 11:04 AM
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Well I'm happy to be in the camp that doesn't think either has much value at all. If Hemsky gets us anything close to a 1st round pick, I'll be thrilled. If we can get anything at all for Horcoff, I will be shocked.

I think a lot of you are setting yourselves up for disappointment expecting solid returns for either of these guys (especially Horcoff who I think will be bought out). That being said, would be elated to eat crow on that.

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06-08-2013, 11:08 AM
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How about Horcoff, Hemsky for Brad Richards?

He's in the dog house in NYC, Rags pay up a bit initially but get depth and get rid of that contract.

I think Richards has wilted in NYC, needs a change of scenery now his coach is gone.

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06-08-2013, 11:10 AM
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To the people who think Horcoff will be bought out, can you explain why?

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06-08-2013, 11:12 AM
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Originally Posted by Meanashell11 View Post
How about Horcoff, Hemsky for Brad Richards?

He's in the dog house in NYC, Rags pay up a bit initially but get depth and get rid of that contract.

I think Richards has wilted in NYC, needs a change of scenery now his coach is gone.
This is dreaming I think. Richards had a bad year, but I don't see the Rangers moving him. Think about it...if he was a UFA, he'd still get a 4 million dollar deal, offered from multiple teams.

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06-08-2013, 11:18 AM
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This is dreaming I think. Richards had a bad year, but I don't see the Rangers moving him. Think about it...if he was a UFA, he'd still get a 4 million dollar deal, offered from multiple teams.
He was sat during the playoffs, the media was all over him and they were talking about buying him out here. I live in the NYC area, this guy was dragged into the mud. Then his coach got axed. There is a chance the Rags move him...

http://www.nytimes.com/2013/05/28/sp...exit.html?_r=0

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06-08-2013, 11:29 AM
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To the people who think Horcoff will be bought out, can you explain why?
He sucks? Paid like a 1st liner?

IMO, the only possible scenario I see a team giving up even the slightest value for him is budget teams that like the idea of a $4M "cap saving" over the next 2 years.

Who knows - maybe a change of scenery where he is just a bottom 6 plug will motivate him and he could re-find his game. That's likely the sell job from MacT I imagine.

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06-08-2013, 11:31 AM
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Originally Posted by Jimmi Jenkins View Post
If you're a cap Floor team, paying Horcoff less then his cap hit isn't a horrible option for them.
I keep hearing this... if you are a cap floor team you have an internal budget. If you have an internal budget you don't want to pay Shawn Horcoff 4 million dollars next year. Not even close to worth it. Much easier ways to get to the cap floor.

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06-08-2013, 11:39 AM
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Horcoff, I'd like whatever we could, I'd be fine with just amnestying him.

Hemsky, I'd look to trade for a similar priced dman or center (too bad we didn't trade for Martin last year!), however I think we could also explore trading him for prospects only IF we use the capspace to fill other holes.

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