based on what? Sundin may be a have a little more finesse, but points per game go to Sittler. Who, by the way, had even less to play with than Mats did.
PPG goes to Sittler marginally compared to the difference in scoring eras. It was considerably easier to pick up a point during Sittler's era. Having seen both, I think Mats is more skilled in that area. I'm not sure if Mats has had more to play with either though I'd have look more closely at that.
based on what? Sundin may be a have a little more finesse, but points per game go to Sittler. Who, by the way, had even less to play with than Mats did.
Lanny Mcdonald? Borje Salming? Ian Turnbull?
I would take that threesome over any three players Sundin has had over a long period of time. Although I must say I thoroughly enjoyed watching Mogilny and Sundin work together when they had the chance.
I would take that threesome over any three players Sundin has had over a long period of time. Although I must say I thoroughly enjoyed watching Mogilny and Sundin work together when they had the chance.
Yes, but that's pretty much it. Lanny for 6 years, and Vaive for less than 2. That's it for forwards as far as quality go. You don't think the Leaf teams of the past few years are better, and had more quality players, than the Leafs of the 70's? That must be why in the 70's they had all those winning years. They won 20 games the year Sittler left. The current day Leafs have won more than twice that 5 of the last 6 years, and had 37 the one year they didn't have more than double that total.
Its hard to agrue who is a better player (because of style of play, time they played in, etc) but it isn't too hard for me to see who has played with the better team.
PPG goes to Sittler marginally compared to the difference in scoring eras. It was considerably easier to pick up a point during Sittler's era. Having seen both, I think Mats is more skilled in that area. I'm not sure if Mats has had more to play with either though I'd have look more closely at that.
I would probably also give the edge to Sundin as far as pure talent goes, but its hard to say Sittler wasn't an offensively gifted played when you look at his numbers.
Yes, but that's pretty much it. Lanny for 6 years, and Vaive for less than 2. That's it for forwards as far as quality go. You don't think the Leaf teams of the past few years are better, and had more quality players, than the Leafs of the 70's? That must be why in the 70's they had all those winning years. They won 20 games the year Sittler left. The current day Leafs have won more than twice that 5 of the last 6 years, and had 37 the one year they didn't have more than double that total.
Its hard to agrue who is a better player (because of style of play, time they played in, etc) but it isn't too hard for me to see who has played with the better team.
The Leafs had +500 seasons 7 times in the 70s. That ratio is identical to the Sundin years.
Granted, the good years of the Sundin era have been better than the best years of the Sittler era.
However, when you say Sundin had better players, I am thinking more about his linemates. With the exception of Mogilny, with whom he has had limited time, Sundin has not benefitted from having a stellar linemate a la McDonald. Also, Salming/Turnbull was a big boost to the Leafs power play. Sundin has not consistently had anything that good on the point of the pp.
Ultimately I agree that its difficult to say which player is better, and that the Leafs of the past five years have been our best teams of the modern era (despite naysayers on these boards). But that is a question of team depth and goaltending.
I contend that Sundin, personally, has mostly had to accept 2nd rate linemates and power play partners (I mention Leetch as an exception, although his stay has been brief. But I think he added a tremendous dimension to our pp).
The Leafs didn't give Sundin any elite help up front until Mogilny got here. And he only played half a season last year. Nolan has been too hurt to contribute.
We need to get Allison in here and sign one of the elite wingers to replace Mogilny. Buy out Nolan if you have to.
The Leafs didn't give Sundin any elite help up front until Mogilny got here. And he only played half a season last year. Nolan has been too hurt to contribute.
We need to get Allison in here and sign one of the elite wingers to replace Mogilny. Buy out Nolan if you have to.
Uh, maybe you haven't been paying attention, but short of the first 15 games after the trade, he hasn't played like one, and has been a no-show for 2 straight playoffs.
Is that really a guy you want to spend 6.5 million on this season?
What if he's on the shelf again at playoff time? His "elite" status won't help then, just like it hasn't so far.
The Leafs didn't give Sundin any elite help up front until Mogilny got here. And he only played half a season last year. Nolan has been too hurt to contribute.
We need to get Allison in here and sign one of the elite wingers to replace Mogilny. Buy out Nolan if you have to.
I agree here .. Fergy's creativity at GM will come from IMO what he can do with McCabe and Nolan ..
If you buyout Nolan (and it doesn't count towards a Cap) then spitting that between Lindros and Allison for example ..
Also Pronger may not want to play in Nashville but you can trade McCabe ($4.5) to Nashville to free up Cap room for Pronger, Foote, retain Leetch etc.
__________________ Noah Cross: 'Course I'm respectable. I'm old. Politicians, ugly buildings, and whores all get respectable if they last long enough. Timothy Fenwick Jr: Do you ever get the feeling that there's something going on that we don't know about? Boogie: If you don't have good dreams, Bagel, you got nightmares.
Uh, maybe you haven't been paying attention, but short of the first 15 games after the trade, he hasn't played like one, and has been a no-show for 2 straight playoffs.
Is that really a guy you want to spend 6.5 million on this season?
What if he's on the shelf again at playoff time? His "elite" status won't help then, just like it hasn't so far.
Unfortunately, injuries happen in hockey especially among players that play physically like Nolan does. That shouldn't take away from the fact that he is a top winger in the league, he could avoid physical contact and stay healthier but he wouldn't be the same player.
At his best he's an elite winger. He has suffered through some rough times health-wise, and we have only see flashes.
I am one of the few (apparently) who still believe Nolan can be a big part of the post-CBA Leafs.
I agree. I still think Nolan has a lot to contribute to this team. Last year he got hit in the eye with a stick. That's just bad luck and it could have happened to anyone. Can't blame Nolan for that.
The same could probably be said for his knee injury as well. It was a very innocent play and ACL and MCL injuries can happen to anybody. They're not really indicitive of having poor knees. In fact, post surgery the knee is often stronger than it was before the injury.
Nolan is a guy who throughout his career has shown that he can consistently play 70++ games every year. And he would have again last year if it weren't for his eye injury.
When we were on our winning streak last season, he was an elite player without question. I think he still has a lot to contribute.
I agree here .. Fergy's creativity at GM will come from IMO what he can do with McCabe and Nolan ..
If you buyout Nolan (and it doesn't count towards a Cap) then spitting that between Lindros and Allison for example ..
Also Pronger may not want to play in Nashville but you can trade McCabe ($4.5) to Nashville to free up Cap room for Pronger, Foote, retain Leetch etc.
Exactly. Although if I'm Adam Foote, I don't see much reason to switch from the Avs to the current Leafs. What for? With Forsberg coming back they are still a better team than Toronto.
We'll have no problem moving two big contracts in this particular offseason. There will be tons of teams who need players that the big-time UFA aren't interested in because all they have to offer is cap space. Those teams will get whatever the rich teams don't want, same as always. Teams like Detroit, Toronto, Philly, etc. will always get the pick of the crop when players make their own choice.
We may not even have to move any players. If it's some kind of team-by-team linkage our payroll needn't dip into the 30s. Bettman has admitted they can all afford 40, so IMO it will be at least that much. Like I've said before, it may be advisable to trade McCabe anyway, but likely renegotiating with Sundin and doing something with Nolan's deal is all they have to do to make room.
If, as you say, Ferguson can get really creative, we could build a hell of a team for next year.
Ummmm a minute ago you were asking peoples opinions of Sittler and said you were 6 when he played?
I know you don't have alot of credibility on the boards...but don't wreck the little you have.
Sittler was a top 5 center in his day. Nothing more, nothing less. He lead his team to the semi finals once (and this was in a much smaller NHL) He had the one incredible night, and that what he will be remembered for. The best comparison would be a "poor mans" Bobby Clarke and for recent players I would say a Mike Modano would be comparable. A little playmaking, a little toughness and a decent leader made him into the player he was.
As for comparisons to Sundin, Sittler < Sundin The Leaf teams of the late 70's were stacked and we had no first place finishes, 1 semi final appearence and Sittlers end came when the Leafs were a bottom 5 team in the NHL. Sundin is the most consistant Toronto Maple Leaf ever and will go down as a top 5 Leaf at the end of his career. Sitler was NOT a top 10 Leaf
based on what? Sundin may be a have a little more finesse, but points per game go to Sittler. Who, by the way, had even less to play with than Mats did.
Yes Errol Thompson Wilf Paiment and Lanny McDonald were just horrid players. Hogland and Renberg just blow them away
If, as you say, Ferguson can get really creative, we could build a hell of a team for next year.
In my eyes Fergy's young and creative thinking will help him, and no bias to stock on vets as Quinn did can open doors ..
I will be watching Fergy closely to from an opinion of his ability to build a competitive team and compete in the UFA world under the rules of the new CBA ..
He will however not just be able to sign, and now he will have to use all sorts of CBA tools , buyouts, trades, restructuring, injure reserve, qualifying offers in cap manipulation techniques. If he is a good GM that will show in his actions .. If he simply promotes 1/2 last years AHL team to fill the roster or sits on his hands during UFA season then he really lacks any sense of creativity IMO ..
Why not renegotiate with Nolan (assuming he's willing) rather than buying him out? Turn it in to a two year deal with less money for each season.
Well its an option and a good question all right ..
As you said the first problem it is a players option to restructure . and it will all depend on the player, buyout is in Owners control.
Option 1 (No restructing and UFA year 2)
If Nolan feels he can get $3.0 mil in the new NHL once his contract expires then you have;
$6.5 mil Now (year 1) + $ 3.0 mil (year 2) as a UFA = $9.5 mil total to Nolan based on expectations over next 2 years.
Option 2 (resructure over 2 years with Leafs)
If Nolan regotiates and agrees to a restructuring then in his mind to break even to option #1
$9.5 / 2 = $4.75 mil /year 1 & year 2 for Nolan new restructure contract.
Dif $6.5 mil current - $ 4.75 mil restructure = $ 1.75 mil savings to Leafs via Cap room/ year ..
Option 3 (buyout)
Current buyout rates 2/3 rds of contract .. $ 6.5 Mil times 2/3 = $ 4.33 mil buyout cost ..
Conclusion :
So Leafs take a one time hit of $ 4.33 mil free up a roster spot and clear $6.5 mil from the cap room to spend in both years 1 and 2 on players
Or they restructure ..
So the Leafs agree to pay Nolan $9.5 mil over two years, do not free up a roster spot and add $ 1.75 mil of cap room in either year to spend.
So based on the player and expected contribution on the ice to the team you have to weigh the options.
My personal choice would be buyout .. because
Worst case even if the buyout counts to the Salary Cap in the year it occurs, then with a buyout Leafs get Year 1 ($6.5 mil Sal - $4.33 BO) = $2.17 Cap room + Year 2 ($6.5 mil full amount) = $8.67 mil free cap space over 2 years ..
Best Case scenario in restructuring = Year 1 + Year 2 @ $1.75 cap room = $ 3.5 mil total free cap space over 2 years . .
You will notice that a BO frees up $2.17 mil and restructuring saves $1.75 mil year one alone..
If your GOAL is a player like Pronger , then the BO option frees up $8.67 mil (which topped up a little to say $9 mil (or $4.5 year) could go to cover his contract in the new NHL while the restrusturing option only frees up $3.5 mil total over 2 years, and that will not even get his agent to pick up the phone and you would have to make lots of other moves to find lots more space and money to fit him under the same cap figure in both examples.
Well its an option and a good question all right ..
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Good post. I think you make your points well. I'll just add one other thought- one other positive about restructuring vs. buyout is that we get to have Nolan on the team.
If not Nolan, then we will have to sign some other winger which will eat up some of that cap room- so your numbers are a bit deceptive.
Finally just pointing out that that technically there are no "current" rules. In this scenario we're assuming the old rules will be reinstated.
I think Mats is a star player in this league. Though I find it hard to place him in that super star mentality. I don't think he is a great leader *good yes but not great. I also find it hard to watch him play sometimes when you know he is not giving him all. Especially when we need him to be. It's to hard to compare players from different eras not only because of the difference in style of game the league is playing at that time but the different styles on coaching the player is under and what kind of roll the coach has that player playing. IMO Sittler was the better player this is not based on 1st hand knowledge because I don't really remember seeing him play on a regular basis only what I have seen from some videos... etc.
It's different when you have guys like Sittler and Gilmour playing for a team they idolised growing up. I mean when you consider everything they have done to try and win for the leafs and fans of Toronto IMO Sundin does not even come close because his heart is not there. At least not like Sittler and Gilmours was. Maybe he played like he does when he is representing his country my feelings would be different but there is more to greatness then just putting up the numbers its when you see the love the players have not only for the game but the love they have for the team, the city and the fans when there out there on the ice. And thats why I am choosing Sittler over Sundin easily. People also refer to Sundin as a great leader but I don't think people realise that since Garry Roberts arrived on the scene IMO the players have been looking to him as the captain because even though I am not a huge fan of his skill any more I think Garry is the guy who gets the leafs fired up on a nightly basis when he plays... Especially in the playoffs. Even though it may look like I am bashin Sundin I really aint. I do like him I just don't see him as being that dominate type player that Gilmour and Sittler were. Not even close maybe it's the way he's being used maybe it's not I donno.. I just don't even think it's that tough a decision.
As for comparisons to Sundin, Sittler < Sundin The Leaf teams of the late 70's were stacked and we had no first place finishes, 1 semi final appearence and Sittlers end came when the Leafs were a bottom 5 team in the NHL. Sundin is the most consistant Toronto Maple Leaf ever and will go down as a top 5 Leaf at the end of his career. Sitler was NOT a top 10 Leaf
Good post. I think you make your points well. I'll just add one other thought- one other positive about restructuring vs. buyout is that we get to have Nolan on the team.
If not Nolan, then we will have to sign some other winger which will eat up some of that cap room- so your numbers are a bit deceptive.
Finally just pointing out that that technically there are no "current" rules. In this scenario we're assuming the old rules will be reinstated.
Very True ..
You could substitute Palffy, Kovalev, Kariya or any other big name forward instead of spending the money on Pronger if you want to keep Defense and Forwards separate in the thinking process ..
If you will notice my original post that you first asked the question on and see my idea was Nolan bought out and Lindros and Allison brought in for the same money (6.5 mil).. 2 for 1 deal if you prefer .. Then even if you lose one to injury you have sheltered yourself a little by spreading out offensive production among more then 1 guy Nolan .. He gets hurt and you're SOL .. Also with Mogilny and Roberts both likely gone, then Allison and Lindros on either side of Mats make as darn good #1 unit IMO .. Or even if you throw Lindros down to the 2nd line to complete the new SKY LINE replacing Newy.. Then you have a good 1 - 2 punch at center, with Allson's offensive contribution possibly equal to Nolan, who can only strengthen any one line at a time he is on. You also address the 2nd line centre position as Lindros and Allison are both natural centers and if Leafs lose Newy then Stajan or Antropov or untested Wellwood is your 2nd line centre choices presently.
The second part of my original post was in conjunction with trading McCabe .. McCabe makes $4.5 next season and you will notice my little story had Pronger making 4.5 per year.. (or $9 mil over 2) ...
So my future Leafs team had me weighing what was better FOR THE SAME MONEY... keeping Nolan and McCabe or switching them for Jason Allison, Eric Lindros and Chris Pronger + (see below for McCabe return) which I felt was realistic as all three have expressed an interest to play in Toronto and to make it all happen all it would take is finding a home for McCabe, and a BO of Nolan he can't avoid ..
What ever the return you got for a 2nd team All-star Dman like McCabe would be more gravy to my side of the equation overall for a future Leafs team.. What if that was a high draft pick or young player/prospect from a smaller market team that has no chance of convincing Pronger to sign so for their money McCabe might do just fine. McCabe to Buffalo replacing the departed Zhitnik for one of Buffalo's 3 young Goalies Biron, Norranen or Ryan Miller (although he is the one I would expect they keep), comes to immediate mind as well as they can't protect all 3 in the waiver draft. (Not a bad insurance plan for an aging Belfour and very Cap friendly in the future once Eddie is gone..
Yes speculative based on lots of unknowns at the moment, but it is based on the concept of Cap manipulation no less which is new school rather then old and the only real issue is the NEW buyout rate if there is one. It really was to show CBA tools available to a clever GM, that even in a Hard Cap world with a team near the Cap limit, significant changes can occur as long as the GM is willing to part with the past in hopes of a brighter future..
I think Mats is a star player in this league. Though I find it hard to place him in that super star mentality. I don't think he is a great leader *good yes but not great. I also find it hard to watch him play sometimes when you know he is not giving him all. Especially when we need him to be. It's to hard to compare players from different eras not only because of the difference in style of game the league is playing at that time but the different styles on coaching the player is under and what kind of roll the coach has that player playing. IMO Sittler was the better player this is not based on 1st hand knowledge because I don't really remember seeing him play on a regular basis only what I have seen from some videos... etc.
It's different when you have guys like Sittler and Gilmour playing for a team they idolised growing up. I mean when you consider everything they have done to try and win for the leafs and fans of Toronto IMO Sundin does not even come close because his heart is not there. At least not like Sittler and Gilmours was. Maybe he played like he does when he is representing his country my feelings would be different but there is more to greatness then just putting up the numbers its when you see the love the players have not only for the game but the love they have for the team, the city and the fans when there out there on the ice. And thats why I am choosing Sittler over Sundin easily. People also refer to Sundin as a great leader but I don't think people realise that since Garry Roberts arrived on the scene IMO the players have been looking to him as the captain because even though I am not a huge fan of his skill any more I think Garry is the guy who gets the leafs fired up on a nightly basis when he plays... Especially in the playoffs. Even though it may look like I am bashin Sundin I really aint. I do like him I just don't see him as being that dominate type player that Gilmour and Sittler were. Not even close maybe it's the way he's being used maybe it's not I donno.. I just don't even think it's that tough a decision.
Lord, here comes the Sundin lacks heart nonsense again. Mats is not perfect by any means but his heart should no longer be an issue after ten years of superb leadership by example. Gilmour was also a great leader but just because Mats doesn't sweat as much does not make him a lesser leader. You say you aren't bashing Mats but a careful look at your post proves otherwise, although your post is far from the most ignorant on this topic.
In my role as grand panjandrum I forbid all future posts questioning Mats's heart.
