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05-29-2005, 02:17 PM
  #51
timlap
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Originally Posted by Recidivist
Lord, here comes the Sundin lacks heart nonsense again. Mats is not perfect by any means but his heart should no longer be an issue after ten years of superb leadership by example. Gilmour was also a great leader but just because Mats doesn't sweat as much does not make him a lesser leader. You say you aren't bashing Mats but a careful look at your post proves otherwise, although your post is far from the most ignorant on this topic.

In my role as grand panjandrum I forbid all future posts questioning Mats's heart.
Thank you grand panjandrum.

. . . although, it is difficult to argue with the sweatiness of Doug Gilmour. It was awfully leaderish of him to sweat so profusely. No one can deny that Mats is much less of a sweater.

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05-29-2005, 02:25 PM
  #52
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Originally Posted by The Messenger
. . .
So my future Leafs team had me weighing what was better FOR THE SAME MONEY... keeping Nolan and McCabe or switching them for Jason Allison, Eric Lindros and Chris Pronger + (see below for McCabe return) which I felt was realistic as all three have expressed an interest to play in Toronto and to make it all happen all it would take is finding a home for McCabe, and a BO of Nolan he can't avoid.
. . .
It's certainly a compelling idea. I confess to being rather fond of McCabe, and still cling to a belief that he could be great (despite a messy seaon this year). But your scenario is intriguing.

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05-29-2005, 03:25 PM
  #53
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Recidivist
Lord, here comes the Sundin lacks heart nonsense again. Mats is not perfect by any means but his heart should no longer be an issue after ten years of superb leadership by example. Gilmour was also a great leader but just because Mats doesn't sweat as much does not make him a lesser leader. You say you aren't bashing Mats but a careful look at your post proves otherwise, although your post is far from the most ignorant on this topic.

In my role as grand panjandrum I forbid all future posts questioning Mats's heart.
My point is like I said not to knock Sundin but when was the last time you saw this guy put this team on his back and carry them like Gilmour and Sittler? Since I can remember more often then not it's been either Curtis Joseph or Ed Belfour that has had to carry most of the load for this team over the past number of seasons. Don't get me wrong because I am not bashing the guy I do like him I just dont think hes the same star quality as a Gilmour or a Sittler. If and I really hate to say this but if Sundin had the drive that little rat Daniel Alfredsson has he would be the dominate center in the league imo.

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05-29-2005, 03:29 PM
  #54
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Quote:
Originally Posted by timlap
It's certainly a compelling idea. I confess to being rather fond of McCabe, and still cling to a belief that he could be great (despite a messy season this year). But your scenario is intriguing.
It would be nice if some how we could keep McCabe because like timlap said I think he could be great. Though if it came down to choosing between Pronger and McCabe well I would regretably have to say odious amigo and welcome Pronger with open arms.

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05-29-2005, 08:48 PM
  #55
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mats heart is great but its a mechanical heart

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05-30-2005, 12:17 AM
  #56
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Originally Posted by Joey24
My point is like I said not to knock Sundin but when was the last time you saw this guy put this team on his back and carry them like Gilmour and Sittler? Since I can remember more often then not it's been either Curtis Joseph or Ed Belfour that has had to carry most of the load for this team over the past number of seasons. Don't get me wrong because I am not bashing the guy I do like him I just dont think hes the same star quality as a Gilmour or a Sittler. If and I really hate to say this but if Sundin had the drive that little rat Daniel Alfredsson has he would be the dominate center in the league imo.
When did Sittler or Gilmour "Carry the team on their backs"?

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Old
05-30-2005, 11:38 AM
  #57
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Sittler is not comparable to anyone

What seperates sittler from sundin was grit and determination.He was a class act and a very subtle offensive force,done mostly with smarts.Sundin is by far more physically gifted but sittler would have matched his offense.Sittler was probably gilmours idol along with bobby clark.Sittler was a captain,sundin is a star someone made captain by default.If they were on the same team even sundin would vote for sittler as captain.Yzerman and sakic are flashier than sittler but he still got the job done.If sittler was 6'4 220 he would have dominated,but he wasnt.He was defintely an impact player but you would have noticed him for hustle and determination he truly bled blue and white.

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05-31-2005, 12:22 AM
  #58
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Quote:
Originally Posted by timlap
When did Sittler or Gilmour "Carry the team on their backs"?
Every time they were on the ice. That a good enough answer for ya?

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05-31-2005, 07:27 AM
  #59
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Sittler and Sundin played similar and yet different styles.

They also played in completely different era's.

Sundin could have been the best player in the league in Sittler's era.

I think if you took Sundin and Tucker put them in a blender, you'd come up with Sittler.

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05-31-2005, 09:24 AM
  #60
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Originally Posted by Joey24
Every time they were on the ice. That a good enough answer for ya?
Not really, except that it confirms my suspicion that this is more of a personal bias than serious analysis- which is fine, as long as we know what we're talking about.

The problem with phrases like, "carry the team on his shoulders" and, "heart" is that they are excessively vague and I suspect people use them when they don't want to bother coming up with any concrete arguments.

Its easy to give way to nostalgia when thinking about Leafs of the past, and only remember a few of their good moments, extending those to represent their entire career. You say they carried the team "every time they were on the ice". The fact is, both Sittler and Gilmour had off nights when they accomplished little and were probably accused of not having "heart," by the not-yet nostalgic fans and journalists of the time.

This could be an intersting discussion, comparing Leafs captains, if you can define a little more precisely what is meant by "carrying the team on their shoulders." That's what I was trying to get you to do with my question.

If, otoh, you are simply saying that you liked Sittler and Gilmour better, that's fine, then. Personally, I like Sundin a lot.

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Old
06-01-2005, 02:22 AM
  #61
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Quote:
Originally Posted by timlap
Not really, except that it confirms my suspicion that this is more of a personal bias than serious analysis- which is fine, as long as we know what we're talking about.

The problem with phrases like, "carry the team on his shoulders" and, "heart" is that they are excessively vague and I suspect people use them when they don't want to bother coming up with any concrete arguments.

Its easy to give way to nostalgia when thinking about Leafs of the past, and only remember a few of their good moments, extending those to represent their entire career. You say they carried the team "every time they were on the ice". The fact is, both Sittler and Gilmour had off nights when they accomplished little and were probably accused of not having "heart," by the not-yet nostalgic fans and journalists of the time.

This could be an intersting discussion, comparing Leafs captains, if you can define a little more precisely what is meant by "carrying the team on their shoulders." That's what I was trying to get you to do with my question.

If, otoh, you are simply saying that you liked Sittler and Gilmour better, that's fine, then. Personally, I like Sundin a lot.
Hrmmm okay let me put it to you like this. Sittler and Gilmour both got the most out of there linemates it seemed like they could click with anyone that was put out on a line with them and make it work. Sundin what can we say about Sundin? Maybe I am being hard on the guy but he just can't spark the team or the offence the same way those guys could.

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Old
06-01-2005, 02:51 AM
  #62
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making sittlers threa about sundin is kind of disrespectful

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Old
06-01-2005, 08:28 AM
  #63
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Joey24
Hrmmm okay let me put it to you like this. Sittler and Gilmour both got the most out of there linemates it seemed like they could click with anyone that was put out on a line with them and make it work. Sundin what can we say about Sundin? Maybe I am being hard on the guy but he just can't spark the team or the offence the same way those guys could.
Well we can't really say Sittler made Lanny, but we do know that any success Hoggie had was due to Sundin's efforts.

Gilmour had Andreychuk who had a before and after career, Hoggie's career started and ended when he was first put on Sundin's line and then taken off Sundin's line.

It would have been nice to see Nolan and Sundin both in their primes like we saw Sittler and McDonald as mates.

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Old
06-01-2005, 12:05 PM
  #64
timlap
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Originally Posted by ULF_55
Well we can't really say Sittler made Lanny, but we do know that any success Hoggie had was due to Sundin's efforts.

Gilmour had Andreychuk who had a before and after career, Hoggie's career started and ended when he was first put on Sundin's line and then taken off Sundin's line.

It would have been nice to see Nolan and Sundin both in their primes like we saw Sittler and McDonald as mates.
Well said.

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