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Matt Read for Jonathan Bernier

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Old
06-14-2013, 02:24 PM
  #301
PWJunior
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Originally Posted by Mats26 View Post
Ok your not getting it. Bernier will be told by his agent that LA will match under 3.36 because DL will not let him go for a second round pick. So his agent will try to get the offer over the 3.36 mark so now we have a first and third in play. If you want Bernier is will cost u a 3.37+ offer and 2014 1st and 3rd.


BTW Read for Bernier was rejected by the Kings during the season.
Oh really? Do you a credible source for your claim? I'd really love to see that myself because I have interest in Bernier as an Isles fan. I have yet to hear anything like that ever come out.

Maybe you and Mr. Death Touch are failing to realize that this whole situation is not all in the hands of the Kings. There are other factors in play that are being ignored. Do whatever number crunching you want, the salary cap does come into play here. Also, Bernier and his future are also in play and he's not 100% at the mercy of Lombardi.

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06-14-2013, 02:31 PM
  #302
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Originally Posted by PWJunior View Post
Oh really? Do you a credible source for your claim? I'd really love to see that myself because I have interest in Bernier as an Isles fan. I have yet to hear anything like that ever come out.

Maybe you and Mr. Death Touch are failing to realize that this whole situation is not all in the hands of the Kings. There are other factors in play that are being ignored. Do whatever number crunching you want, the salary cap does come into play here. Also, Bernier and his future are also in play and he's not 100% at the mercy of Lombardi.
The Kings can afford 3.3M. If there is one thing I'm not worried about with Dean Lombardi in charge, it's the cap.

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06-14-2013, 02:36 PM
  #303
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Originally Posted by PWJunior View Post
Why is it smart for him to not sign a 2nd round compensation offer sheet? I am having a hard time seeing him and his agent justifying a salary higher than $3.3M with his body of work and in this goalie market. Plus, what does it matter for him what he signs for? Is the future of the Kings #1 on his priority list? I don't think so. He wants to play and not sit on his ass.
He is on a team that just won a cup a season ago and made it to the WCF's this past one. Everyone knows not only that he wants to be a starter but also (from DL down) that he is ready to do so. That said JB is among other things smart enough to know that a deal will come along that will both give him his shot at becoming a starter but also put him on a team that will be willing to pay him at least the minimal amount of $3.134.088 that would net the Kings a 1st and a 3rd pick in 14 (or whenever he is dealt).

Remember anything less would be terrible for the Kings. By signing JB to match ANY offer sheet below that $3.134.088 amount the Kings retain JB which continues giving them the best tandem in nets in the game. Ask any Kings fan if they would be seriously nervous if Quick was out of the line up for 20 games and you will see why JB is so important to us.

To most of us JB may play a completely different style to JQ but he gives us close to the same chance of winning to where if we had to rely on him we wouldn't be concerned.

His value as a player to the Kings is something that has to be considered when you are talking about the potential of him moving. The King are a team built from the net out so having a highly talented young JB as our backup is a great thing.

Now that isn't saying that JB doesn't have to be moved or that the Kings aren't trying to do so, they are but they aren't going to give him away either.

If JB isn't happy with his situation you won't see it on the ice ever because he is smart enough to know that the better he plays the greater the chance that he will be dealt and given his chance to become a starter.

So as an RFA the Kings hold his rights and are happy about it until they get the kind of offer that they want in return. A 1st and a 3rd would be a steal for a team like Isles.

They just made the playoffs with their young team and with JB they will be better positioned to do so again next season. They have a deep system so losing a 1st and a 3rd wouldn't do much damage if any to their overall depth and having a great young netminder signed on the cheap for a couple of years would do allot to help them.

They would lose a mid (or later) 1st and 3rd for solving their starting goaltending for the next decade. Pretty fair deal. (the isles or any team in a similar position)


Last edited by etherialone: 06-14-2013 at 02:51 PM.
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06-14-2013, 02:40 PM
  #304
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Quote:
Originally Posted by PWJunior View Post
Oh really? Do you a credible source for your claim? I'd really love to see that myself because I have interest in Bernier as an Isles fan. I have yet to hear anything like that ever come out.

Maybe you and Mr. Death Touch are failing to realize that this whole situation is not all in the hands of the Kings. There are other factors in play that are being ignored. Do whatever number crunching you want, the salary cap does come into play here. Also, Bernier and his future are also in play and he's not 100% at the mercy of Lombardi.
TSN MacK reported the rumour and he mentioned it was offered and rejected during the season.

My whole process is to trade Bernier, but we will match any compensation for a second rounder, 100% sure of this. We did not spend money to draft, develop for just a second. I think Bernier in a package to get us a top 6 could be worked out but philly needs to clear cap. Is Hartnel availabale?

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06-14-2013, 02:40 PM
  #305
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Originally Posted by PWJunior View Post
Oh really? Do you a credible source for your claim? I'd really love to see that myself because I have interest in Bernier as an Isles fan. I have yet to hear anything like that ever come out. Maybe you and Mr. Death Touch are failing to realize that this whole situation is not all in the hands of the Kings. There are other factors in play that are being ignored. Do whatever number crunching you want, the salary cap does come into play here. Also, Bernier and his future are also in play and he's not 100% at the mercy of Lombardi.
You should not have interest in Bernier as an Isles fan.
From Staple interview:

Isles want to see what they've got with Nilson/Poulin in camp, before looking outside the organization for goaltending talent.
If Poulin doesn't impress in camp, he'll be gone (I think Poulin's no longer waiver eligible).

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06-14-2013, 04:58 PM
  #306
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Originally Posted by Mats26 View Post
Ok your not getting it. Bernier will be told by his agent that LA will match under 3.36 because DL will not let him go for a second round pick. So his agent will try to get the offer over the 3.36 mark so now we have a first and third in play. If you want Bernier is will cost u a 3.37+ offer and 2014 1st and 3rd.


BTW Read for Bernier was rejected by the Kings during the season.
Quote:
Originally Posted by PWJunior View Post
Oh really? Do you a credible source for your claim? I'd really love to see that myself because I have interest in Bernier as an Isles fan. I have yet to hear anything like that ever come out.

Maybe you and Mr. Death Touch are failing to realize that this whole situation is not all in the hands of the Kings. There are other factors in play that are being ignored. Do whatever number crunching you want, the salary cap does come into play here. Also, Bernier and his future are also in play and he's not 100% at the mercy of Lombardi.
Quote:
Originally Posted by DimMak View Post
The Kings can afford 3.3M. If there is one thing I'm not worried about with Dean Lombardi in charge, it's the cap.

That's not what he was questioning. In the first post the guy said that DL is going to talk to JK's agent and say "we'll match anything under 3.3 mil" and that JK's agent will ask for more than that in any offer sheet just so the Kings can get a 1st out of it. Two things are wrong with this assumption, the first is that this poster said that DL WILL talk to JK's agent about what the Kings will and won't match. There is no way he can possibly know this so he is doing nothing more than LYING. He's SPECULATING and SHOULD have said "I believe..." or "I have no doubt..." but to imply that he has forlorn knowledge that such a conversation is in the mix is a falsehood.

The second thing wrong in his assumptions is that he believes that JK would ask for more than 3.4 just so the Kings can make certain they get a 1st and 3rd or better to help the Kings out. He is AGAIN assuming he WANTS to help the Kings out and intentionally screw his new team over just to help out the dear old Kings. Sorry but again this is pure speculation at best on this guys part and an out and out lie at worst. It could very well be that the Kings are lowballing JB and he may very well sign a 3.3 mil offer sheet with another team knowing there is a 99% chance he's returning to LA when they match but he does it simply to get them to pay more than they were offering him on their own.

Nobody is disputing whether or not LA can afford JB at 3.3 mil or not (or at least me and other SMART posters aren't). However, making bold opinionated statements like this and trying to pass them off as FACTUAL IS being disputed.

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06-14-2013, 05:14 PM
  #307
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Originally Posted by phlocky View Post
That's not what he was questioning. In the first post the guy said that DL is going to talk to JK's agent and say "we'll match anything under 3.3 mil" and that JK's agent will ask for more than that in any offer sheet just so the Kings can get a 1st out of it. Two things are wrong with this assumption, the first is that this poster said that DL WILL talk to JK's agent about what the Kings will and won't match. There is no way he can possibly know this so he is doing nothing more than LYING. He's SPECULATING and SHOULD have said "I believe..." or "I have no doubt..." but to imply that he has forlorn knowledge that such a conversation is in the mix is a falsehood.

The second thing wrong in his assumptions is that he believes that JK would ask for more than 3.4 just so the Kings can make certain they get a 1st and 3rd or better to help the Kings out. He is AGAIN assuming he WANTS to help the Kings out and intentionally screw his new team over just to help out the dear old Kings. Sorry but again this is pure speculation at best on this guys part and an out and out lie at worst. It could very well be that the Kings are lowballing JB and he may very well sign a 3.3 mil offer sheet with another team knowing there is a 99% chance he's returning to LA when they match but he does it simply to get them to pay more than they were offering him on their own.

Nobody is disputing whether or not LA can afford JB at 3.3 mil or not (or at least me and other SMART posters aren't). However, making bold opinionated statements like this and trying to pass them off as FACTUAL IS being disputed.
Help me out here. I don't see the first poster LYING at all because I believe he is simply stating what he thinks or believes will happen. I agree that JB's agent will either already know or be made aware that of the fact that the Kings will match any offer under the $3.134.088 that it would take to get the minimal return of a 2014 1st and 3rd pick.

I think when you are saying that Mats26 is that it is merely him stating his belief of how things will work.

So I see what you are saying but am curious if there is more to what Mats26 has said that makes you think he is lying because to me it looks like he is just stating what he believes will happen and in truth, it is something that is either known or will be made known in my opinion prior to JB signing any offer sheet(s) presented.

It seems like semantics to me or I must be missing something.

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06-14-2013, 05:18 PM
  #308
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Originally Posted by phlocky View Post
That's not what he was questioning. In the first post the guy said that DL is going to talk to JK's agent and say "we'll match anything under 3.3 mil" and that JK's agent will ask for more than that in any offer sheet just so the Kings can get a 1st out of it. Two things are wrong with this assumption, the first is that this poster said that DL WILL talk to JK's agent about what the Kings will and won't match. There is no way he can possibly know this so he is doing nothing more than LYING. He's SPECULATING and SHOULD have said "I believe..." or "I have no doubt..." but to imply that he has forlorn knowledge that such a conversation is in the mix is a falsehood.

The second thing wrong in his assumptions is that he believes that JK would ask for more than 3.4 just so the Kings can make certain they get a 1st and 3rd or better to help the Kings out. He is AGAIN assuming he WANTS to help the Kings out and intentionally screw his new team over just to help out the dear old Kings. Sorry but again this is pure speculation at best on this guys part and an out and out lie at worst. It could very well be that the Kings are lowballing JB and he may very well sign a 3.3 mil offer sheet with another team knowing there is a 99% chance he's returning to LA when they match but he does it simply to get them to pay more than they were offering him on their own.

Nobody is disputing whether or not LA can afford JB at 3.3 mil or not (or at least me and other SMART posters aren't). However, making bold opinionated statements like this and trying to pass them off as FACTUAL IS being disputed.
Nobody is assuming Bernier wants to help out the Kings. It would be in his own best interests to sign an offer sheet that returns more than a 2nd round pick BECAUSE THAT'S THE ONLY WAY THE KINGS WILL LET HIM GO. It has nothing to do with "helping out the dear old Kings". If he wants to be a starter, signing an offer sheet for which the compensation is a 2nd rounder is not the way to do it. I guess it's possible he just wants the extra money and has no problem being a highly paid backup, but I wouldn't bet on it.

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06-14-2013, 05:20 PM
  #309
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So much for DLs winning culture. "We won't let bernier play unless someone signs him for more than 3.3 and gives up a 1st. ". BS. Just trade him a prospect and move on. This is turning into another Luongo fiasco.

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06-14-2013, 05:22 PM
  #310
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Originally Posted by Hitman47 View Post
So much for DLs winning culture. "We won't let bernier play unless someone signs him for more than 3.3 and gives up a 1st. ". BS. Just trade him a prospect and move on. This is turning into another Luongo fiasco.
Or if someone offers something similar in a trade. If you want to get him via offer sheet, you need to be giving up a 1st and 3rd.

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06-14-2013, 05:29 PM
  #311
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He is on a team that just won a cup a season ago and made it to the WCF's this past one. Everyone knows not only that he wants to be a starter but also (from DL down) that he is ready to do so. That said JB is among other things smart enough to know that a deal will come along that will both give him his shot at becoming a starter but also put him on a team that will be willing to pay him at least the minimal amount of $3.134.088 that would net the Kings a 1st and a 3rd pick in 14 (or whenever he is dealt).

Remember anything less would be terrible for the Kings. By signing JB to match ANY offer sheet below that $3.134.088 amount the Kings retain JB which continues giving them the best tandem in nets in the game. Ask any Kings fan if they would be seriously nervous if Quick was out of the line up for 20 games and you will see why JB is so important to us.

To most of us JB may play a completely different style to JQ but he gives us close to the same chance of winning to where if we had to rely on him we wouldn't be concerned.

His value as a player to the Kings is something that has to be considered when you are talking about the potential of him moving. The King are a team built from the net out so having a highly talented young JB as our backup is a great thing.

Now that isn't saying that JB doesn't have to be moved or that the Kings aren't trying to do so, they are but they aren't going to give him away either.

If JB isn't happy with his situation you won't see it on the ice ever because he is smart enough to know that the better he plays the greater the chance that he will be dealt and given his chance to become a starter.

So as an RFA the Kings hold his rights and are happy about it until they get the kind of offer that they want in return. A 1st and a 3rd would be a steal for a team like Isles.

They just made the playoffs with their young team and with JB they will be better positioned to do so again next season. They have a deep system so losing a 1st and a 3rd wouldn't do much damage if any to their overall depth and having a great young netminder signed on the cheap for a couple of years would do allot to help them.

They would lose a mid (or later) 1st and 3rd for solving their starting goaltending for the next decade. Pretty fair deal. (the isles or any team in a similar position)
JBs value to the kings means nothing to other teams. Other teams want a starter not someone who could step in for 20 games. I think this entire concept is reverberated by most who goes on this site.

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06-14-2013, 05:32 PM
  #312
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Originally Posted by Tonellisghost View Post
Help me out here. I don't see the first poster LYING at all because I believe he is simply stating what he thinks or believes will happen. I agree that JB's agent will either already know or be made aware that of the fact that the Kings will match any offer under the $3.134.088 that it would take to get the minimal return of a 2014 1st and 3rd pick.

I think when you are saying that Mats26 is that it is merely him stating his belief of how things will work.

So I see what you are saying but am curious if there is more to what Mats26 has said that makes you think he is lying because to me it looks like he is just stating what he believes will happen and in truth, it is something that is either known or will be made known in my opinion prior to JB signing any offer sheet(s) presented.

It seems like semantics to me or I must be missing something.

He never said that HE THINKS or BELIEVES, he stated and I quote "Bernier will be told by his agent...". He is stating this as fact, not his "opinion". This is what PWJunior was questioning and rightfully so.

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06-14-2013, 05:35 PM
  #313
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Originally Posted by Hitman47 View Post
So much for DLs winning culture. "We won't let bernier play unless someone signs him for more than 3.3 and gives up a 1st. ". BS. Just trade him a prospect and move on. This is turning into another Luongo fiasco.
I don't see how this does anything to knock our winning culture. Keeping JB only helps ensure that we continue to remain at the top of our game by maintaining the best goaltending tandem in the NHL. It has to be good for the team first and then the player. That is how it is with every team in every sport, isn't it?

As to this becoming a Luongo type fiasco I disagree entirely. JB is an RFA a highly talented top young player who is ready to become a starting goalie in the NHL. The RFA status is in the contract of young players so that their teams can be assured to have a solid return on their investments.

The Kings have spent a fortune developing JB into the player that he is today. His RFA status give both parties the ability to maximize the value of a player for both the team and the player in that order.

It is why the Kings should do all that they can to get the best possible return for JB and why JB should only leave for the best possible offer. Why leave to go be the starter of a team that is struggling or for a team that thinks so little of your abilities that they are only willing to pay you so little?

Better opportunities and offers will come along. He has shown nothing but professionalism and patience so far and I can't see any reason why he would stop doing so now.

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06-14-2013, 05:38 PM
  #314
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Originally Posted by DimMak View Post
Nobody is assuming Bernier wants to help out the Kings. It would be in his own best interests to sign an offer sheet that returns more than a 2nd round pick BECAUSE THAT'S THE ONLY WAY THE KINGS WILL LET HIM GO. It has nothing to do with "helping out the dear old Kings". If he wants to be a starter, signing an offer sheet for which the compensation is a 2nd rounder is not the way to do it. I guess it's possible he just wants the extra money and has no problem being a highly paid backup, but I wouldn't bet on it.

Do you really think that if the Kings only offer him 2.5 mil and the best offer sheet he gets is for 3.3 mil that he WON'T sign the offer sheet because he knows the Kings will match and he'll be a backup anyways???

The point is that including JB in this process of "We'll match ..." is pointless. If JB gets an offer sheet and he WANTS to go to that team he's going to sign it regardless of whether he believes the Kings are going to match it or not.

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06-14-2013, 05:40 PM
  #315
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Originally Posted by DimMak View Post
Or if someone offers something similar in a trade. If you want to get him via offer sheet, you need to be giving up a 1st and 3rd.
And THAT may very well be true.

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06-14-2013, 05:41 PM
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i think Philly will add. Lombardi never seems to always get people to overpay...

and more amazing is why Philly thinks Bernier will be any better than Bryz

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06-14-2013, 05:42 PM
  #317
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Originally Posted by phlocky View Post
He never said that HE THINKS or BELIEVES, he stated and I quote "Bernier will be told by his agent...". He is stating this as fact, not his "opinion". This is what PWJunior was questioning and rightfully so.
But isn't it somewhat implied? I mean it seems like it is to me. Mats couldn't possibly be expected to know with certainty that Lombardi is about to call Bernier's agent to have such a conversation, can he?

Also I believe that he is correct in his assumption that such a conversation would most certainly either take place or be understood. Calling someone a liar is a pretty big thing imo and I don't agree that Mats26 is trying to deceive anyone at all. Merely stating his position. He could have used a qualifier for certain but I don't think he was intentionally lying to anyone and accusing him of it seems to be a stretch.

In the end what he is saying is clearly possibly true or certainly a version of how things must work in some way so I don't see where he is lying.

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06-14-2013, 05:43 PM
  #318
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Originally Posted by Tonellisghost View Post
I don't see how this does anything to knock our winning culture. Keeping JB only helps ensure that we continue to remain at the top of our game by maintaining the best goaltending tandem in the NHL. It has to be good for the team first and then the player. That is how it is with every team in every sport, isn't it?

As to this becoming a Luongo type fiasco I disagree entirely. JB is an RFA a highly talented top young player who is ready to become a starting goalie in the NHL. The RFA status is in the contract of young players so that their teams can be assured to have a solid return on their investments.

The Kings have spent a fortune developing JB into the player that he is today. His RFA status give both parties the ability to maximize the value of a player for both the team and the player in that order.

It is why the Kings should do all that they can to get the best possible return for JB and why JB should only leave for the best possible offer. Why leave to go be the starter of a team that is struggling or for a team that thinks so little of your abilities that they are only willing to pay you so little?

Better opportunities and offers will come along. He has shown nothing but professionalism and patience so far and I can't see any reason why he would stop doing so now.
I agree with everything in this post except for the bolded part. I highly doubt a player would take the attitude of "Well, they wouldn't give up a 1st rnd pick for me so **** them, I have no desire to play well for those bozos".

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06-14-2013, 05:46 PM
  #319
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Originally Posted by Tonellisghost View Post
But isn't it somewhat implied? I mean it seems like it is to me. Mats couldn't possibly be expected to know with certainty that Lombardi is about to call Bernier's agent to have such a conversation, can he?

Also I believe that he is correct in his assumption that such a conversation would most certainly either take place or be understood. Calling someone a liar is a pretty big thing imo and I don't agree that Mats26 is trying to deceive anyone at all. Merely stating his position. He could have used a qualifier for certain but I don't think he was intentionally lying to anyone and accusing him of it seems to be a stretch.

In the end what he is saying is clearly possibly true or certainly a version of how things must work in some way so I don't see where he is lying.
Okay, I agree that saying he was bold face lying was too strong but he was certainly implying it more as fact than opinion considering his verbiage.

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06-14-2013, 05:47 PM
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Do you really think that if the Kings only offer him 2.5 mil and the best offer sheet he gets is for 3.3 mil that he WON'T sign the offer sheet because he knows the Kings will match and he'll be a backup anyways???

The point is that including JB in this process of "We'll match ..." is pointless. If JB gets an offer sheet and he WANTS to go to that team he's going to sign it regardless of whether he believes the Kings are going to match it or not.
I agree with you here.

I do believe that JB's agent will go back to the Kings with any offer that he receives simply because it removes one of the hassles that will certainly pop up. (or visa versa)

IF JB signs an offersheet I think it will be once everyone has talked about it and that it will be with the teams blessing but who knows. I could see him signing an offer and waiting to see how the Kings respond.

I stand by what I have heard and been saying since the GM meetings and that is that the Kings received an offer for JB that they wouldn't discuss until the season was over but that they liked an awful lot.

A deal is likely right there but we will see what happens. No harm in hanging on to JB until the draft and driving up his price (potentially)

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06-14-2013, 05:48 PM
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Okay, I agree that saying he was bold face lying was too strong but he was certainly implying it more as fact than opinion considering his verbiage.
Fair enough.

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06-14-2013, 05:52 PM
  #322
Rorschach
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Read is 5'10"/5'11"

There is no place for him on the Kings as long as Darryl Sutter is coach. He let the large-sized liability players in King and Muzzin play in the playoffs even though they were beyond awful, even when smaller but better players were available options. What makes any Kings fan think Read would get ice time? He would be like the next Richardson, and only for a year?

Read would just be a body who took up another 800k in cap and a valuable roster spot. If anything, a young up and coming team should try to get Read, a team that needs talent and isn't size-obsessed.

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06-14-2013, 06:00 PM
  #323
etherialone
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Quote:
Originally Posted by phlocky View Post
I agree with everything in this post except for the bolded part. I highly doubt a player would take the attitude of "Well, they wouldn't give up a 1st rnd pick for me so **** them, I have no desire to play well for those bozos".
I should have explained myself better. I was referring to the idea that if a team was only offering less than $3.2 per season it might be worth his while to wait for a better offer. That sort of thing. I do believe that he will somewhat have the Kings interest in mind but will ultimately do what is best for him and his career in so much that he can as an RFA.

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06-14-2013, 06:03 PM
  #324
etherialone
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Rorschach View Post
Read is 5'10"/5'11"

There is no place for him on the Kings as long as Darryl Sutter is coach. He let the large-sized liability players in King and Muzzin play in the playoffs even though they were beyond awful, even when smaller but better players were available options. What makes any Kings fan think Read would get ice time? He would be like the next Richardson, and only for a year?

Read would just be a body who took up another 800k in cap and a valuable roster spot. If anything, a young up and coming team should try to get Read, a team that needs talent and isn't size-obsessed.
He is the same height as Richards (1/4" shorter according to his last team measurement). He is a little taller than Toffoli too and he looks to be making the team. I think that if you have game which Read easily does then he can and will make exceptions but I do agree with you that DS favors big players without a doubt.

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06-14-2013, 06:11 PM
  #325
phlocky
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Originally Posted by Tonellisghost View Post
I should have explained myself better. I was referring to the idea that if a team was only offering less than $3.2 per season it might be worth his while to wait for a better offer. That sort of thing. I do believe that he will somewhat have the Kings interest in mind but will ultimately do what is best for him and his career in so much that he can as an RFA.
Oh I HIGHLY doubt that he signs the first offer sheet placed in front of him before seeing if any others are interested. He'd be a fool to do so. If he gets to free agency (RFA that is) I think he'll get offers from half a dozen teams or more. He might not sign the one with the highest dollar offer as he'll look at many other factors too. The point is that I think he'll have his choices of offers to choose from (and I agree, if they aren't above 3.3 mil I think the Kings match it).

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