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Old
06-12-2013, 06:12 PM
  #51
biturbo19
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Proto View Post
Lots of interesting stuff here, but Goc is the only of those three good enough to be a third line center, in my opinion. The other two are 4th line centers.

People dramatically overstate the importance of faceoffs.

I guess I'd say that I think you've found good 4th line centers and leave it at that. A guy like Gordon just can't replicate the offense Malhotra could counter punch with -- he only produces about 60% of Malhotra's typical offense.

I'd want a young kid like Couturier who could play tough minutes and still have room to grow into a 2nd line role if I had my wish. It's going to be a hard spot to fill, which is why you hear rumblings the Canucks hope Gaunce can fill the role.
The bolded is pretty much my reaction to the results here.

Most of the guys examined are what i would call '4th liners'. Though some of the guys added are more in the vein of what i'd call a '3rd liner' as we're looking for. But the fact guys like Stoll, Kelly, Bolland, etc. don't seem to check out as 'fits' based on the criteria used, i think the criteria or weighting, etc is a bit flawed. Price of acquisition being prohibitive or guys simply not being on the table i understand, but to say someone like Stoll wouldn't be a 100% ideal fit in terms of what he brings to the table, is kind of peculiar to me.

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Originally Posted by Dissonance View Post
A guy like Boyd Gordon who can chip in 20 points, chew up 15 minutes a game, and pitch in on the penalty kill seems like a near-ideal 3C target. Especially if we're trying to get another scoring-line winger and need the extra cash. And he'd certainly be an upgrade on Schroeder.

I'd also vote to stick with Lapierre for the 4th line. Hard to think we'll find anything better on the UFA market or on the farm. I'm not sold on Lain, etc., but guys like that will likely get their chance when injuries strike.
I take issue with this idea that an adequate or better '3rd line center' for us would be someone who is only chipping in 20pts and is out there to 'chew up' some minutes, rather than truly contribute with that TOI. For me, that's a description of a really good 4th liner. That's nearly a description of Lapierre. Not the sort of high end 3rd line Center this team should be looking at imo.

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Originally Posted by Proto View Post
You guys are seriously overrating Boyd Gordon. The only thing he has in common with Malhotra is that he's good at faceoffs, which was certainly useful, but nowhere near the top of the list when it comes to Malhotra's qualities as a player.

Boyd Gordon is okay. He's good on faceoffs, and can handle difficult minutes if he doesn't play too much, but he's only going to give you about 20 points/82 games. Frankly, that's dreadful for a third line center, and I don't think the Canucks can afford to have an absolute black hole offensively for a third line centre.

If I recall, Gordon was also shredded this year when he had to move up the line-up due to injuries in Phoenix, something that would never happen to Malhotra. Malhotra might not generate a lot of offense (more than Gordon, for sure), but he was capable of sawing off match-ups and depressing shot totals in both directions when he was on the ice against just about anyone.

You build an elite shutdown line for your third line when you have elite shutdown players to do so. You can't shoehorn players into the role, in my opinion. Gordon would be an upgrade on Lapierre on the 4th line, but he'll probably get paid too much for it to make sense for the Canucks.
Yep. I don't dislike Gordon as a player, but i think the runaway hype train with his name on it has come completely off the rails in terms of what he offers vs what he's be built up as.

He's a great 4th line Center, who can move up to the 3rd line in a pinch here and there. He'd be a useful contributor on the PK and would eat up 4th line minutes for breakfast behind a strong team. But to ask him to anchor an elite 'shutdown line' is asking far too much, and i think it's also asking too much of Higgins/Hansen to play that same shutdown role with an offensive black hole like Gordon between them...and still expect any real offensive production out of them. We need more depth of scoring, not less.

Gordon while a solid Faceoff option, is however...also a RH shot. Like Lapierre, that would likely limit his utility in a zone-deployment scheme like we've seen...as what we're really after is a LH faceoff ace to pair with Kesler on the RH draws. I also don't think it's all that safe to assume whoever our new coach is, will be as keen on the same level of extreme Zone Deployment strategy application as AV was recently.

Boyd Gordon to me, is far closer to what Lapierre offers (minus the yapping, but also minus the size), than he is to what Malhotra offered (pre-injury).

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06-12-2013, 07:31 PM
  #52
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Bolland is a guy I'd look at if Chicago wants to get out from under his contract.

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06-12-2013, 08:55 PM
  #53
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Originally Posted by Proto View Post
Bolland is a guy I'd look at if Chicago wants to get out from under his contract.
They do. Supposedly, he was awful this season and most fans are willing to jettison him for a second, some a third, just to clear the salary. My concern with Bolland exclusing performance is his cap hit makes it difficult for us to address scoring needs. Granted, it seems as though Booth/Kesler/Burrows will happen.

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06-12-2013, 09:07 PM
  #54
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Quote:
Originally Posted by biturbo19 View Post
I take issue with this idea that an adequate or better '3rd line center' for us would be someone who is only chipping in 20pts and is out there to 'chew up' some minutes, rather than truly contribute with that TOI. For me, that's a description of a really good 4th liner. That's nearly a description of Lapierre. Not the sort of high end 3rd line Center this team should be looking at imo.
I don't disagree that an elite third-line center would be better than a mid-range third line center. Of course it would. It just depends what else we want to do.

If we want someone like Kelly or Stoll or Peverly or Bolland, we're looking at spending around $3 million to $3.5 million. If we do that--and assuming we can buy out Ballard and ditch Luongo--then that's pretty much it for changes to the roster, seeing as how Tanev needs a raise and we still need a #6 defenseman, which will likely cost around $1-$1.4 million.

FORWARDS
Daniel Sedin ($6.100m) / Henrik Sedin ($6.100m) / Alexandre Burrows ($4.500m)
David Booth ($4.250m) / Ryan Kesler ($5.000m) / Chris Higgins ($2.500m)
Jannik Hansen ($1.350m) / Jarrett Stoll ($3.250m) / Zack Kassian ($0.870m)
Tom Sestito ($0.750m) / Maxim Lapierre ($1.000m) / Dale Weise ($0.677m)
Darren Archibald ($0.660m)
DEFENSEMEN
Alexander Edler ($5.000m) / Kevin Bieksa ($4.600m)
Jason Garrison ($4.600m) / Dan Hamhuis ($4.500m)
Chris Tanev ($1.800m) / ?????
Frank Corrado ($0.599m)
GOALTENDERS
Cory Schneider ($4.000m)
Eddie Lack ($0.750m)
OTHER
Buyout: Keith Ballard ($0.000m)
------
CAPGEEK.COM TOTALS (follow @capgeek on Twitter)
(these totals are compiled with the bonus cushion)
SALARY CAP: $64,300,000; CAP PAYROLL: $62,855,944; BONUSES: $0
CAP SPACE (21-man roster): $1,444,056

-----------

If that line-up seems reasonable, then fine. (I'd be okay with it--obviously the fourth liners are interchangeable.) But if you think we need another scoring winger instead, then we'll have to skimp on the 3C spot.

Unless, of course, we really shake things up and trade Burrows or Edler, which seems unlikely to me.

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06-12-2013, 09:32 PM
  #55
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bourne Endeavor View Post
They do. Supposedly, he was awful this season and most fans are willing to jettison him for a second, some a third, just to clear the salary. My concern with Bolland exclusing performance is his cap hit makes it difficult for us to address scoring needs. Granted, it seems as though Booth/Kesler/Burrows will happen.
He really didn't have a good season, but I'd be interested. You're right about the cap issues it would create for the Canucks, though...

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06-12-2013, 09:41 PM
  #56
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dissonance View Post
I don't disagree that an elite third-line center would be better than a mid-range third line center. Of course it would. It just depends what else we want to do.

If we want someone like Kelly or Stoll or Peverly or Bolland, we're looking at spending around $3 million to $3.5 million. If we do that--and assuming we can buy out Ballard and ditch Luongo--then that's pretty much it for changes to the roster, seeing as how Tanev needs a raise and we still need a #6 defenseman, which will likely cost around $1-$1.4 million.

FORWARDS
Daniel Sedin ($6.100m) / Henrik Sedin ($6.100m) / Alexandre Burrows ($4.500m)
David Booth ($4.250m) / Ryan Kesler ($5.000m) / Chris Higgins ($2.500m)
Jannik Hansen ($1.350m) / Jarrett Stoll ($3.250m) / Zack Kassian ($0.870m)
Tom Sestito ($0.750m) / Maxim Lapierre ($1.000m) / Dale Weise ($0.677m)
Darren Archibald ($0.660m)
DEFENSEMEN
Alexander Edler ($5.000m) / Kevin Bieksa ($4.600m)
Jason Garrison ($4.600m) / Dan Hamhuis ($4.500m)
Chris Tanev ($1.800m) / ?????
Frank Corrado ($0.599m)
GOALTENDERS
Cory Schneider ($4.000m)
Eddie Lack ($0.750m)
OTHER
Buyout: Keith Ballard ($0.000m)
------
CAPGEEK.COM TOTALS (follow @capgeek on Twitter)
(these totals are compiled with the bonus cushion)
SALARY CAP: $64,300,000; CAP PAYROLL: $62,855,944; BONUSES: $0
CAP SPACE (21-man roster): $1,444,056

-----------

If that line-up seems reasonable, then fine. (I'd be okay with it--obviously the fourth liners are interchangeable.) But if you think we need another scoring winger instead, then we'll have to skimp on the 3C spot.

Unless, of course, we really shake things up and trade Burrows or Edler, which seems unlikely to me.
I think that ultimately, if we're keeping Booth...you have to hope/assume/imagine that he comes back rejuvenated and healthy under a new coach and offseason in that case as the theoretical 'another scoring winger'. If he's not that 'additional top-6 winger' to be added...then you have to move him, which potentially frees up a bit of cap wiggle room to play with.

I mean, i'd rather have a $4.2M 2nd line winger (Booth) added + an elite 3rd line center, vs an extra 'top-6 winger' + $4.2M 3rd line winger (Booth) and a bottom-of-the-barrel bargain bin '3rd line Center'.

The 3rd line Center spot just isn't a place that seems wise to skimp on to me. Especially not to accommodate a player you're not sure is a '2nd line scorer'.

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Old
06-12-2013, 10:29 PM
  #57
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Quote:
Originally Posted by biturbo19 View Post
I mean, i'd rather have a $4.2M 2nd line winger (Booth) added + an elite 3rd line center, vs an extra 'top-6 winger' + $4.2M 3rd line winger (Booth) and a bottom-of-the-barrel bargain bin '3rd line Center'.

The 3rd line Center spot just isn't a place that seems wise to skimp on to me. Especially not to accommodate a player you're not sure is a '2nd line scorer'.
Those are all fair points and I think I'm coming around to your view. Though, again, this all comes back to the question of whether a high-end third-line center like Stoll is actually available/gettable for us.

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06-12-2013, 10:53 PM
  #58
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Originally Posted by Diamonddog01 View Post
I also like Brodziak a lot. He has way more offense than Gordon while still boasting good faceoff numbers.

Minny may be in a cap crunch this offseason with guys like PMB having to be re-signed, so there may be some deals there.

I'd offer Schroeder for cap relief and the fact he's a Minnesota boy and see if they bite.
Ya he's more offensive than Gordon, but not as good defensivly. So I guess it's a draw off.


I'm still wondering where Schroeder fits on this team, perhaps Minny would bite at a Schroeder - Brodziak trade? They're not in the Canucks division next yr right?

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06-13-2013, 12:12 AM
  #59
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somebody give this guy a medal

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06-13-2013, 01:38 PM
  #60
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Great OP.

I think if the team re-signs Schroeder with the intent of him seeing regular ice-time with top 9 guys (i.e. Higgins, Hansen, Burr) then the 'checking center' is the guy they will pursue. Ideally it's a combination of say Gordon and Winnick, who could skate with Weise to form a very strong tough minutes line.

Chipchura may be cheaper and a good option.

Weise-Chipchura-Winnick would essentially give you the type of 4th line that can play 12 mins a night, not get eaten alive by other teams top 9 guys, and provide PK ice time. Gaunce could get a look on a line like that as well and play some wing/softer C minutes.

If they don't put Schroeder in the top 9, the expectations for the third line C need to be higher. Into the Stoll/Brodziak/Cullen/Bolland/Kelly type of range. Pursuing a player like that means shedding some dollars, so I would think a guy like Higgins or Booth would need to be moved.

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06-17-2013, 01:48 AM
  #61
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So Corban Knight is set to become a FA Aug 15th (Link) He was a Fla Panthers prospect, ranked their 4th ebst prospect by Corey Pronman (Link)

He described as a grade A 2 way centre, more defensive than offensive. He did an interview w/Edm media (Link) where he describes himself as being a good 3C on an NHL team.

He's a Cdn boy (Alberta), a FA, young and has great 2 way abilities. I bet Gillis goes after him this summer. Hope Canucks don't come 2nd again

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06-17-2013, 02:02 AM
  #62
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I wonder how much Philly values Couturier now.

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06-17-2013, 02:15 AM
  #63
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Sounds like Knight has already decided on Edmonton. If we could sign him a Price for Knight swap might work.

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06-17-2013, 02:35 AM
  #64
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Originally Posted by me2 View Post
Sounds like Knight has already decided on Edmonton. If we could sign him a Price for Knight swap might work.
What made you think that?

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Old
06-17-2013, 03:39 AM
  #65
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dissonance View Post
I don't disagree that an elite third-line center would be better than a mid-range third line center. Of course it would. It just depends what else we want to do.

If we want someone like Kelly or Stoll or Peverly or Bolland, we're looking at spending around $3 million to $3.5 million. If we do that--and assuming we can buy out Ballard and ditch Luongo--then that's pretty much it for changes to the roster, seeing as how Tanev needs a raise and we still need a #6 defenseman, which will likely cost around $1-$1.4 million.

FORWARDS
Daniel Sedin ($6.100m) / Henrik Sedin ($6.100m) / Alexandre Burrows ($4.500m)
David Booth ($4.250m) / Ryan Kesler ($5.000m) / Chris Higgins ($2.500m)
Jannik Hansen ($1.350m) / Jarrett Stoll ($3.250m) / Zack Kassian ($0.870m)
Tom Sestito ($0.750m) / Maxim Lapierre ($1.000m) / Dale Weise ($0.677m)
Darren Archibald ($0.660m)
DEFENSEMEN
Alexander Edler ($5.000m) / Kevin Bieksa ($4.600m)
Jason Garrison ($4.600m) / Dan Hamhuis ($4.500m)
Chris Tanev ($1.800m) / ?????
Frank Corrado ($0.599m)
GOALTENDERS
Cory Schneider ($4.000m)
Eddie Lack ($0.750m)
OTHER
Buyout: Keith Ballard ($0.000m)
------
CAPGEEK.COM TOTALS (follow @capgeek on Twitter)
(these totals are compiled with the bonus cushion)
SALARY CAP: $64,300,000; CAP PAYROLL: $62,855,944; BONUSES: $0
CAP SPACE (21-man roster): $1,444,056

-----------

If that line-up seems reasonable, then fine. (I'd be okay with it--obviously the fourth liners are interchangeable.) But if you think we need another scoring winger instead, then we'll have to skimp on the 3C spot.

Unless, of course, we really shake things up and trade Burrows or Edler, which seems unlikely to me.
If that's how this team looks we're going nowhere once again. Higgins is one of the biggest playoff no shows in the league, he doesn't produce, Booth can't stay healthy, has no chemistry with anyone and we have no idea what he'll bring. Having those two in the top 6 is inexcusable.

The defence is still flawed and yeah wow, I have no interest in investing any emotion in that roster.

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06-17-2013, 03:42 AM
  #66
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Looks Corban Knight is BC boy (born in Oliver). Was a Canucks fan. Oh man, this situation is reminding me of another one not to long ago.

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06-17-2013, 05:00 AM
  #67
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Originally Posted by SunshineRays View Post
What made you think that?
Gushing about Eberle and training with them. Good chance for Edmonton kids to get at him and sell him on that age group they have there.


Last edited by me2: 06-17-2013 at 05:08 AM.
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06-17-2013, 05:12 AM
  #68
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Minnesota's roster is filled with a number of interesting players they are talking about moving and/or are making the market: UFA's Cullen and Bouchard, RFA Clutterbuck, Brodziak. I also see them eyeing options at goal, and about how to deal with cap issues. I wonder if Luongo, Schroeder and/or Ballard would be interesting enough for them to see these two teams as a good fit for a trade? Sadly adding all of the three doesn't appear to be an option due to cap reasons but individually they could all be considered filling a need.. (#1 goalie, Top4 D, cheap young 3C) while Brodziak/Cullen's rights and Clutterbuck are very interesting to me.. just makes me wonder.

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06-17-2013, 06:00 AM
  #69
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SunshineRays View Post
Looks Corban Knight is BC boy (born in Oliver). Was a Canucks fan. Oh man, this situation is reminding me of another one not to long ago.

Good find. This is the type of prospect/young player the Canucks should be targeting. He can play within the bottom6 right now, and offered the chance to sink or swim. I hope the Canucks pursue signing him.


Quote:
Originally Posted by me2 View Post
Gushing about Eberle and training with them. Good chance for Edmonton kids to get at him and sell him on that age group they have there.

Ahh that's too bad. I would imagine that the Oiler's group could better convince a player like him to sign with them. Hometown vs. best opportunity, again.

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06-17-2013, 09:00 AM
  #70
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Ahh that's too bad. I would imagine that the Oiler's group could better convince a player like him to sign with them. Hometown vs. best opportunity, again.
If you're a young forward, I'm not sure you look at the Oilers roster and think, "Oh, lots of opportunity there."

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06-17-2013, 09:31 AM
  #71
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If you're a young forward, I'm not sure you look at the Oilers roster and think, "Oh, lots of opportunity there."
Maybe the kid can play goal?

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06-17-2013, 09:36 AM
  #72
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If you're a young forward, I'm not sure you look at the Oilers roster and think, "Oh, lots of opportunity there."
You do if you think you're more suited to a bottom-6 role.

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06-17-2013, 09:38 AM
  #73
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The college loop hole really should've been closed with the new CBA. It really harms the less desirable teams.

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06-17-2013, 09:49 AM
  #74
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The college loop hole really should've been closed with the new CBA. It really harms the less desirable teams.
Are we (Vancouver) a "less desireable team"?

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06-17-2013, 10:08 AM
  #75
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Are we (Vancouver) a "less desireable team"?
Corban Knight was drafted by Florida. What does Vancouver have to do with any of this?

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