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Trading Up Part II: The Midnight Barkov

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06-12-2013, 08:51 PM
  #226
Paxon
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jame View Post
One might argue that if we dumped a ton of assets into trading up for Mackinnon, we might then lose our way to a couple more elite prospects (ekblad, macdavid)
That's possible, but it depends which assets. That's also achievable in separate deals, whether or not we trade for MacKinnon, by moving Vanek, Miller, etc to places where they probably carry more value than Colorado. In other words, it's not really part of the compensation in drastically overpaying for MacKinnon since we could move them for more fair return and achieve the same affect.

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06-12-2013, 08:51 PM
  #227
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Originally Posted by Bucky Gleason View Post
I wonder how well Pittsburgh would have done if they'd traded Malkin Staal Fleury and Whitney for the Crosby pick

E: Chicago with toews and Kane, Washington with backstrom and ov, etc
nice try... but those top tier picks (1-3), are not the same as 8th, 16th, 12th, 26th, etc

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06-12-2013, 08:55 PM
  #228
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Originally Posted by Rob Paxon View Post
That's possible, but it depends which assets. That's also achievable in separate deals, whether or not we trade for MacKinnon, by moving Vanek, Miller, etc to places where they probably carry more value than Colorado.
Agreed.

if we put 4 major pieces into a deal for Mackinnon, we still have plenty of cupboard, and plenty of assets to continue to restock the cupboard, and a few years of misery to restock the cupboard

Going with one of the trendy offers: 8th, 16th, Myers, Grigorenko for Mackinnon

we still have: Hodgson, Ennis, Armia, Girgensons, Larsson, Foligno, McCabe, Pysyk, McNabb, Enroth, Hackett

we still have trade returns on : Vanek, Miller, Stafford

we still have VERY high 2014 and 2015 1sts
we still have 6 second rounders in 2013-2015

and an Owner willing to spend like a mad man to put talent around the team as it grows (think of the Tavares Isles... with money to spend)

OH GOD WE TRADED 4 YOUNG PLAYERS FOR A SUPER STAR.... WE'RE SCREWED!!!!


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06-12-2013, 08:56 PM
  #229
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jame View Post
nice try... but those top tier picks (1-3), are not the same as 8th, 16th, 12th, 26th, etc
Yea, but MacKinnon ain't Crosby, either. I agree that it wasn't a fair analogy on his part but I'm not really seeing reasonable analogies anywhere in this thread.

If we really want to use history in some reasonably applicable way, let's look at actual trades into the top #2 picks and how those turned out.

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06-12-2013, 09:01 PM
  #230
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jame View Post
Agreed.

if we put 4 major pieces into a deal for Mackinnon, we still have plenty of cupboard, and plenty of assets to continue to restock the cupboard, and a few years of misery to restock the cupboard

Going with one of the trendy offers: 8th, 16th, Myers, Grigorenko for Mackinnon

we still have: Hodgson, Ennis, Armia, Girgensons, Larsson, Foligno, McCabe, Pysyk, McNabb, Enroth, Hackett

we still have trade returns on : Vanek, Miller, Stafford

we still have VERY high 2014 and 2015 1sts
we still have 6 second rounders in 2013-2015

and an Owner willing to spend like a mad man to put talent around the team as it grows (think of the Tavares Isles... with money to spend)

OH GOD WE TRADED 4 YOUNG PLAYERS FOR A SUPER STAR.... WE'RE SCREWED!!!!

If the deal is 8, 16, Grigorenko and Myers for #1 that's doable.

If the deal is Vanek, Miller, Myers, Grigorenko, 8, 16, and 52 that's not doable.

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06-12-2013, 09:03 PM
  #231
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You're safe from that deal. Colorado couldn't possibly take that much salary.

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06-12-2013, 09:05 PM
  #232
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jame View Post
nice try... but those top tier picks (1-3), are not the same as 8th, 16th, 12th, 26th, etc
I'm not sure you understood my point

Though you might have and instead shifted the goalposts


In selecting those difference makers at the top iof the draft none of those teams had to drastically sacrifice high en assets. As such, the success of those top five players is inexorably linked to a supporting cast that wasn't gouged in pursuit of their services

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06-12-2013, 09:09 PM
  #233
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bucky Gleason View Post
I'm not sure you understood my point

Though you might have and instead shifted the goalposts


In selecting those difference makers at the top iof the draft none of those teams had to drastically sacrifice high en assets. As such, the success of those top five players is inexorably linked to a supporting cast that wasn't gouged in pursuit of their services
Yep.

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06-12-2013, 09:10 PM
  #234
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Originally Posted by DYaeger89 View Post
You're safe from that deal. Colorado couldn't possibly take that much salary.
The deal involved using our picks and players to work our way up the first round, but the end result was #1

And I'm not anti trading for #1, but I am anti vast overpayment because, while its nice to have a cornerstone franchise player it's just as difficult to surround him with the right team to win.

That said, I'd prefer to get a franchise player organically by earning a top pick. This trading the moon to take a shortcut seems like the kind of thing that will backfire for us.

Darcy is running the whole thing so I have little faith in what's going on to begin with, but that's another thread.

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06-12-2013, 09:14 PM
  #235
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bucky Gleason View Post
I'm not sure you understood my point

Though you might have and instead shifted the goalposts


In selecting those difference makers at the top iof the draft none of those teams had to drastically sacrifice high en assets. As such, the success of those top five players is inexorably linked to a supporting cast that wasn't gouged in pursuit of their services
if that's the case, I'm sure Pittsburgh would've done just fine trading Fleury #1 2003, Stone #32 2003 , Whitney #5 2002, Nemec #35 2002
for
#1 Malkin 2004

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06-12-2013, 09:16 PM
  #236
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jame View Post
Agreed.

if we put 4 major pieces into a deal for Mackinnon, we still have plenty of cupboard, and plenty of assets to continue to restock the cupboard, and a few years of misery to restock the cupboard

Going with one of the trendy offers: 8th, 16th, Myers, Grigorenko for Mackinnon

we still have: Hodgson, Ennis, Armia, Girgensons, Larsson, Foligno, McCabe, Pysyk, McNabb, Enroth, Hackett

we still have trade returns on : Vanek, Miller, Stafford

we still have VERY high 2014 and 2015 1sts
we still have 6 second rounders in 2013-2015

and an Owner willing to spend like a mad man to put talent around the team as it grows (think of the Tavares Isles... with money to spend)

OH GOD WE TRADED 4 YOUNG PLAYERS FOR A SUPER STAR.... WE'RE SCREWED!!!!

how do i become colorado's gm for a day to approve this deal?

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06-12-2013, 09:17 PM
  #237
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Karate Johnson View Post
The deal involved using our picks and players to work our way up the first round, but the end result was #1

And I'm not anti trading for #1, but I am anti vast overpayment because, while its nice to have a cornerstone franchise player it's just as difficult to surround him with the right team to win.
most teams get the franchise player by being horrible... which means they have YEARS to surround that player with the right team. Buffalo is PLENTIFUL in talent in the 19 - 24 yr age bracket... we can afford to overpay because our prospect/youth talent pool is DEEP.... AND we have a YEARS to build around the 17 year franchise center.

Quote:
That said, I'd prefer to get a franchise player organically by earning a top pick. This trading the moon to take a shortcut seems like the kind of thing that will backfire for us.
How are we going to get the pick organically, when you place so much value on all these young players we have... if they are so valuable, isn't being bad enough to finish dead last out of the question?

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06-12-2013, 09:21 PM
  #238
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jame View Post
if that's the case, I'm sure Pittsburgh would've done just fine trading Fleury #1 2003, Stone #32 2003 , Whitney #5 2002, Nemec #35 2002
for
#1 Malkin 2004
They don't make it to the finals in 08 and probably don't have enough secondary offense in 09

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06-12-2013, 09:22 PM
  #239
Paxon
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jame View Post
How are we going to get the pick organically, when you place so much value on all these young players we have... if they are so valuable, isn't being bad enough to finish dead last out of the question?
Pretty disingenuous point. One needn't think that players are collectively good enough to make the team not suck next year to think they're important pieces going forward.

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06-12-2013, 09:24 PM
  #240
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Originally Posted by Jame View Post
How are we going to get the pick organically, when you place so much value on all these young players we have... if they are so valuable, isn't being bad enough to finish dead last out of the question?
Not at all... They are all still too young. Some are 2014 first rounders. And as I was reminded a few posts ago that Regier is running the show, and Rolston is the coach. We will be bad.

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06-12-2013, 09:25 PM
  #241
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Karate Johnson View Post
If the deal is 8, 16, Grigorenko and Myers for #1 that's doable.

If the deal is Vanek, Miller, Myers, Grigorenko, 8, 16, and 52 that's not doable.
I don't see the first as doable either. Maybe it's bc I value grigorenko a lot (and don't see any chance he's moved) or the fact I like having 2 1sts, but I'm only ok with moving 2 of the 3 if I'm giving up on Myers already.

More and more Im against this idea and rather just sit at 8 or make a smaller deal up to 4 or 5

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06-12-2013, 09:28 PM
  #242
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Originally Posted by Bucky Gleason View Post
They don't make it to the finals in 08 and probably don't have enough secondary offense in 09
nonsense

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06-12-2013, 09:29 PM
  #243
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Originally Posted by Rob Paxon View Post
Pretty disingenuous point. One needn't think that players are collectively good enough to make the team not suck next year to think they're important pieces going forward.
fair enough

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06-12-2013, 09:32 PM
  #244
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Originally Posted by Jame View Post
nonsense
Fine, MAF's apex and Kunitz' 15 points barely contributed in successive years. Don't be ridiculous

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06-12-2013, 09:36 PM
  #245
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Originally Posted by Bucky Gleason View Post
Fine, MAF's apex and Kunitz' 15 points barely contributed in successive years. Don't be ridiculous
Goalie behind Orpik, Gonchar, Scuderi, Gill, Letang is individually irrelevant...
Winger scoring on Crosby line... individually irrelevant

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06-12-2013, 09:39 PM
  #246
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Originally Posted by Jame View Post
Goalie behind Orpik, Gonchar, Scuderi, Gill, Letang is individually irrelevant...
Winger scoring on Crosby line... individually irrelevant
Normally MAF woul indeed be irrelevant, but his performance was .4 better than either of the surrounding years. He really was on point thy year. An Kunitz wasn't stapled to Crosby yet at that point, unless I'm much mistaken. There's a reason they acquired dupuis the previous year and then Kunitz. The front office determined Kunitz could be the difference and they were proven right.

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06-12-2013, 09:45 PM
  #247
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Originally Posted by Bucky Gleason View Post
Normally MAF woul indeed be irrelevant, but his performance was .4 better than either of the surrounding years. He really was on point thy year. An Kunitz wasn't stapled to Crosby yet at that point, unless I'm much mistaken. There's a reason they acquired dupuis the previous year and then Kunitz. The front office determined Kunitz could be the difference and they were proven right.
yea, i mean 1 whole goal in 24 games on the way to a cup is totally a difference maker...

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06-12-2013, 09:47 PM
  #248
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yea, i mean 1 whole goal in 24 games on the way to a cup is totally a difference maker...
Statisticians would later come to determine that players coul contribute beyond directly scoring goals. This conclusion is still met with controversy in current player analysis




I mean, seriously? That's all you've got?

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06-12-2013, 09:49 PM
  #249
Paxon
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Who cares, the players Jame listed aren't really an equivalent to what's being talked about as ridiculous proposals for MacKinnon and Pittsburgh's situation is completely different because we can say for certainty that they were able to draft Crosby, Malkin, and Staal in successive years without having to give up anything but their dignity.

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06-12-2013, 09:51 PM
  #250
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I'll give you 8, 16, 52 and Vanek for MacKinnon.

If that doesn't get it done, I can't see adding in pieces like Myers and Grigorenko. And I doubt Regier even offers as much as I would.

Maybe you get Rick Nash, or Ilya Kovalchuk, or Steven Stamkos, or Alex Ovechkin, but you have to build a team around those guys. And a lot of teams aren't able to do that.

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