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Trading Up Part II: The Midnight Barkov

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06-20-2013, 06:39 PM
  #876
ZZamboni
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Originally Posted by Afinogretzky View Post
Yup. Even guys with 400-500 NHL games can go through the motions on a bad team, turn it up in a contract year, and then go back to playing the guitar.
That is pure opinion.

Here is fact. If a player, plays one NHL game, they technically have contributed to the contest. Therefore, every player was a contributing player on an NHL team. From one shift all the way to 1,000 games and beyond.

So stop the drama. Be factually correct. And like another poster said, quit moving the goalposts. Think it thru before burning up your keyboard responding.

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06-20-2013, 06:41 PM
  #877
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As long as no other team moves up to 4 or #1 for a reasonable package then I'm fine. If someone does THEN ill be furious. Until then I will believe my GM that the cost is too much or e pick is simple not available. It's as simple as that, even if disappointing.

Dream is we grab #5 and nich is taken top 4 and we land barkov. Dream, I know..

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06-20-2013, 06:47 PM
  #878
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Originally Posted by Afinogretzky View Post
7 contributing NHLers

who?

if you're counting paille that's ridiculous. noronen, kalinin, and stafford all played NHL games, rather poorly.

so in the players worth a damn category we have ennis, and myers 25% of the time.

everyone else under 20 years old shouldn't shift any sort of narrative.
Yeah guys if you count an elite 2 way bottom 6 forward with a game winning ot Stanley Cup final goal that's ridiculous . Paille was a good pick. Do you want your 1st round pick to be a top 6 player? Of course. But I'd rather have a good solid guy like Paille then a bust.

Stafford averages 22 goals and 50+ points a season but that's "poorly" Actually it's more like very good 2nd line player. Darcy has had one top 5 pick since 1997. This is the 2nd time he is picking in the top 10. Oh and his 2nd first rounder at #16 is only the 9th time in 16 years he has had a pick so high. You can draft several all stars outside the top 5. Outside the top 15 is even harder and more then half of Darcy's 1sts were either 16th or later. I dislike Darcy too, but saying you can't draft high end talent outside the top 5 because Darcy never could is false. He hasn't drafted much high end talent because he usually has a mid to late 1st round pick. I would rather stay at #8 and #16 and get a 1st line forward and top pairing dman prospects out of it. This is the best draft since 2008, which was the best draft since 2003. The 8 and 16 could be our Carter/Richards or Perry/Getzlaf.

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06-20-2013, 06:54 PM
  #879
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Originally Posted by Awwufelloff View Post
Patriots haven't drafted top 20 in 10 years, same for Detriot Red Wings. You don't have to SUCK to be GOOD. I guess it just makes it easier. But who knows, the Oilers might not make the playoffs for another few years. Who the hell wants to go through a 10 year rebuild? Psh...Not me.
Doesn't matter how you do it, you need elite players. Its that simple. Drafted high, drafted low, sign, or trade. You need an elite player.

We were a couple games from a cup because of one reason, we had the greatest player in the game in Hasek. When they were good after the lockout it was because Briere and Drury played out their minds. Darcy said it, we need to find a way to acquire elite players.

Unless you have one you might as well not even play a season.

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06-20-2013, 07:21 PM
  #880
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Originally Posted by Old Navy Goat View Post
Miller, Campbell, Pominville all have made All Star appearances after being drafted by Regier
Yup, same number I've got. In 17 years, I need to create a new word to accurately describe how bad that is.

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06-20-2013, 07:23 PM
  #881
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Originally Posted by Layne Staley View Post
Yeah guys if you count an elite 2 way bottom 6 forward with a game winning ot Stanley Cup final goal that's ridiculous . Paille was a good pick. Do you want your 1st round pick to be a top 6 player? Of course. But I'd rather have a good solid guy like Paille then a bust.

Stafford averages 22 goals and 50+ points a season but that's "poorly" Actually it's more like very good 2nd line player. Darcy has had one top 5 pick since 1997. This is the 2nd time he is picking in the top 10. Oh and his 2nd first rounder at #16 is only the 9th time in 16 years he has had a pick so high. You can draft several all stars outside the top 5. Outside the top 15 is even harder and more then half of Darcy's 1sts were either 16th or later. I dislike Darcy too, but saying you can't draft high end talent outside the top 5 because Darcy never could is false. He hasn't drafted much high end talent because he usually has a mid to late 1st round pick. I would rather stay at #8 and #16 and get a 1st line forward and top pairing dman prospects out of it. This is the best draft since 2008, which was the best draft since 2003. The 8 and 16 could be our Carter/Richards or Perry/Getzlaf.
A. Missing the point about Paille - completely. He's clearly a contributing player now, but wasn't when Darcy shipped him off for a 3rd round pick. So either he was a good pick that we traded away too soon, or he was a bad pick. Which one is it? Either way, Darcy screwed up.

B. If Drew Stafford is a very good 2nd liner then I'm the ****ing pope.

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06-20-2013, 07:26 PM
  #882
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Originally Posted by ZZamboni View Post
That is pure opinion.

Here is fact. If a player, plays one NHL game, they technically have contributed to the contest. Therefore, every player was a contributing player on an NHL team. From one shift all the way to 1,000 games and beyond.

So stop the drama. Be factually correct. And like another poster said, quit moving the goalposts. Think it thru before burning up your keyboard responding.
C'mon dude. You can't be serious with that crap. 1 game is a contribution? So Novotny was a worthy pick because he made a "contribution"? There's no way you believe what you just wrote, no way.

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06-20-2013, 07:27 PM
  #883
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This has gotten so ridiculous. Apparently now it'd be a problem to draft Monahan, Lindholm, Ristolainen, etc because Devine said that the players at 8 and 16 are top 6/top 4 players.

Maybe he should have said "THESE GUYS ARE DEFINITE #1 CENTERS ON ANY TEAM IN HISTORY BECAUSE I AM THE DIVINE DEVINE, MASTER PROGNOSTICATOR OF THE UNIVERSE AND WEARER OF SPARKLY HIGH HEELS"

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06-20-2013, 07:32 PM
  #884
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Afinogretzky View Post
7 contributing NHLers

who?

if you're counting paille that's ridiculous. noronen, kalinin, and stafford all played NHL games, rather poorly.

so in the players worth a damn category we have ennis, and myers 25% of the time.

everyone else under 20 years old shouldn't shift any sort of narrative.
If you didn't claim they were not "contributors" to an NHL team, I wouldn't have commented. Factually, they were/are. Think about it. Oh wait, you did, and still don't get it

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06-20-2013, 07:39 PM
  #885
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Originally Posted by ZZamboni View Post
If you didn't claim they were not "contributors" to an NHL team, I wouldn't have commented. Factually, they were/are. Think about it. Oh wait, you did, and still don't get it
Oh, I get it now. You're arguing semantics. Just the mere fact they have greater than 0 games played makes them a contributor. Got it.

They're place holders IMO. None of them are/were really worth a damn. If you don't see the difference between players who impact a franchise and players that don't, then I can't really help you.

Brad Richards and Rob Ray have both "contributed" 900 career NHL games. You gunna tell me they're worth the same?

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06-20-2013, 07:44 PM
  #886
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So, essentially three pages of temper tantrum because Devine didn't phrase a statement to one poster's liking.

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06-20-2013, 07:47 PM
  #887
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Originally Posted by Afinogretzky View Post
Oh, I get it now. You're arguing semantics. Just the mere fact they have greater than 0 games played makes them a contributor. Got it.

They're place holders IMO. None of them are/were really worth a damn. If you don't see the difference between players who impact a franchise and players that don't, then I can't really help you.

Brad Richards and Rob Ray have both "contributed" 900 career NHL games. You gunna tell me they're worth the same?
Classic. The guy who has spent three pages whining about one sentence complains about semantics. That's rich.

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06-20-2013, 07:51 PM
  #888
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Originally Posted by Zip15 View Post
So, essentially three pages of temper tantrum because Devine didn't phrase a statement to one poster's liking.
Whatever dude. If you're cool with Darcy continually pissing on our feet and calling it rain, then ignore every point I made about his poor draft record and his unwillingness to take a shot.

This was supposed to be an era where we "leave no stone unturned". Instead Darcy has already backed out so he can tell us how "impossible" and "difficult" everything is.

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06-20-2013, 07:54 PM
  #889
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Originally Posted by Zip15 View Post
Classic. The guy who has spent three pages whining about one sentence complains about semantics. That's rich.
haha you know what's funny? When you click on your name it shows that avatar that says "2 top 20 centers". You know EXACTLY what I'm talking about. Our franchise is run by a clown and no one wants to admit it.


Last edited by Brian Boyle: 06-20-2013 at 08:04 PM.
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Old
06-20-2013, 07:55 PM
  #890
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Originally Posted by Rob Paxon View Post
This has gotten so ridiculous. Apparently now it'd be a problem to draft Monahan, Lindholm, Ristolainen, etc because Devine said that the players at 8 and 16 are top 6/top 4 players.

Maybe he should have said "THESE GUYS ARE DEFINITE #1 CENTERS ON ANY TEAM IN HISTORY BECAUSE I AM THE DIVINE DEVINE, MASTER PROGNOSTICATOR OF THE UNIVERSE AND WEARER OF SPARKLY HIGH HEELS"
My fear is Monahan/Lindholm won't be in play. It'll be either Nurse or Ristolainen. That gives us a solid blue-chip defense prospect. Starting off the 'rebuild' with a bang. Adding an elite-caliber young guy to a core including girgensons and larsson is a true bang and, I think, the foundation for a championship-minded rebuild.

Drafting 8 and 16 is stocking the cupboards, which is stacked already with young guys, and attempting to tread water until they either find a franchise guy that'll agree to come to us in free agency (unlikely) or hope we suck for a high pick (unlikely). That's why some of these 'absurd' proposals aren't so absurd. We're going to be bad next year, I'll rather be a little worse and have a mackinnon or a barkov then be the usual 9th-12th place with ristolainen/nurse and whoever's at 16.

Also, if they're pushing this hard to keep Miller and Vanek then they either aren't rebuilding or building around two guys who have yet to commit to the organization past 2014. Of course, if they're just saying this out of a feeling of having to knowing they're likely trading them, the above can be rescinded.


Note too that Darcy still said 'try'. If I'm him, I throw a bomb on Colorado on draft day. A two firsts,myers,plus bomb.

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06-20-2013, 07:55 PM
  #891
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Originally Posted by Afinogretzky View Post
Whatever dude. If you're cool with Darcy continually pissing on our feet and calling it rain, then ignore every point I made about his poor draft record and his unwillingness to take a shot.

This was supposed to be an era where we "leave no stone unturned". Instead Darcy has already backed out so he can tell us how "impossible" and "difficult" everything is.
The funny thing is that, of all the things you could've complained about, and Regier has given us many, you chose to complain about his non-top-5 1st round pick history, which is actually pretty good. You've lost your mind over one sentence that Devine likely gave little thought to. You act as if they're maliciously angling to pick a 2nd line/pairing player.

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06-20-2013, 07:57 PM
  #892
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Originally Posted by Afinogretzky View Post
Mac,

I understand Colorado not moving the 1st pick. Fine.

Barkov at 4, or Lindholm at 6 should be the targets. Maybe they still will be. But if I know Darcy, that tone he used today was one of "hey fans, we're picking at 8 even though I said we wouldn't." And his rationale was awful.

My biggest fear is getting stuck at 8 and picking from Risto, Nurse, and Shinkaruk. I confidently think Darcy will **** that up.
Then, if you've been paying attention, you'd know that Fla, TB, Nsh and Cal also aren't trading their pick, and you'd be fine with that too. So essentially (besides the tantrum that Zip mentioned) you haven't been paying attention to what other GMs are planning. The best chance Buffalo has at moving up is #5 and getting Monahan or Lindholm. Guess what??? Those two guys ARE NOT franchise changing players either. So right now you can give up on your misunderstood pipedream that you incorrectly thought Regier promised you. Nah...keep pounding on the keyboard, there is some amount of morbid entertainment value to your rants.

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06-20-2013, 08:01 PM
  #893
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Originally Posted by Zip15 View Post
The funny thing is that, of all the things you could've complained about, and Regier has given us many, you chose to complain about his non-top-5 1st round pick history, which is actually pretty good. You've lost your mind over one sentence that Devine likely gave little thought to. You act as if they're maliciously angling to pick a 2nd line/pairing player.
You seem like a smart guy with a billion posts on this board. So I have no ****ing idea who you're trying to fool with that comment. His 1st round drafting record is absolutely horrific. If anything, his late round pulls have been very good (Miller, Max, Campbell, etc). There isn't a single 1st line player or all-star amongst his 1st round selections.

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06-20-2013, 08:03 PM
  #894
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Don't worry about it guys, forget the draft, Darcy has something up his sleeve.....

My guess is that he is working Miller....

I keep saying it but Miller to Philly....

Courtier (or however you spell his name) for Miller are the principles....book it!!!!!!!

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06-20-2013, 08:08 PM
  #895
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Originally Posted by Afinogretzky View Post
You seem like a smart guy with a billion posts on this board. So I have no ****ing idea who you're trying to fool with that comment. His 1st round drafting record is absolutely horrific. If anything, his late round pulls have been very good (Miller, Max, Campbell, etc). There isn't a single 1st line player or all-star amongst his 1st round selections.
Because those guys are difficult to find outside the "non-softball" picks. Has Stan Bowman been a great drafter in the 1st round since he took over as GM? Has Shero been a great drafter when he doesn't have an elite pick?

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06-20-2013, 08:08 PM
  #896
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Originally Posted by Afinogretzky View Post
You seem like a smart guy with a billion posts on this board. So I have no ****ing idea who you're trying to fool with that comment. His 1st round drafting record is absolutely horrific. If anything, his late round pulls have been very good (Miller, Max, Campbell, etc). There isn't a single 1st line player or all-star amongst his 1st round selections.
Sorry people, nothing to see here...move along now...
Attached Images
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06-20-2013, 08:10 PM
  #897
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Because those guys are difficult to find outside the "non-softball" picks. Has Stan Bowman been a great drafter in the 1st round since he took over as GM? Has Shero been a great drafter when he doesn't have an elite pick?
They have superstars in place. What do we have?

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06-20-2013, 08:12 PM
  #898
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Because those guys are difficult to find outside the "non-softball" picks. Has Stan Bowman been a great drafter in the 1st round since he took over as GM? Has Shero been a great drafter when he doesn't have an elite pick?
One was hired in 2010. The other in 2006. They don't have almost 2 decades of sucking to their name.

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06-20-2013, 08:12 PM
  #899
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They have superstars in place. What do we have?
A red herring in the discussion of what those guys have done outside the top-5. According to that poster, a GM gets no credit for a top-5 "softball" pick that a "monkey" could make.

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06-20-2013, 08:12 PM
  #900
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If we won another game we would be picking #12 and everyone would be hoping to somehow move up to #8. Picking at 8/16/38/52/68 is going to be a very good thing for the future of this team. I am pleased with the cup board we are building. Maybe one of these guys emerges from the pack or we get a top pick next year. For how pessimistic things have been this teams future is better than it has been since 07. Adding a bluechip defensive prospect is something our prospect pool could use

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