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06-12-2013, 09:13 AM
  #126
Howard Chuck
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Originally Posted by allan5oh View Post
The thing is, if we were to truly be a contender, I think Buff would get himself in better shape. I also think he'd get himself in better shape being traded to a better team.
I believe the same thing. Some people need more motivation than others and Buff rests on his natural gifts until something really moves him to push himself.

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06-12-2013, 09:21 AM
  #127
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Here's the thing with Byfuglien that really irked me. When Noel moved him to forward, he seemed to dog it. Everyone knows he is and wants to be a defenseman, but I didn't like what appeared to be his lack of effort. It's a team game, and sometimes you gotta play a role that maybe you're not very fond of, but the coaching staff believes it can be beneficial to the team.

In my opinion, he dogged it so he could revert back to defence, he moped about it and it showed on the ice in my opinion. I didn't like that. Personally, if you want my honest opinion, I think that was (perhaps is) what may be his ticket out of Winnipeg. I have an inkling of a feeling that really didn't sit well with management.

Maybe I am completely wrong, but it's my hunch. As a fan, that was the time when I turned 100% ok with dealing Dustin Byfuglien out of Winnipeg. At a time when the team was fighting tooth and nail for a playoff spot as the season was coming to an end, he really didn't devote himself to a team game, instead it was a selfish act. Again, in my opinion, of course.

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06-12-2013, 09:36 AM
  #128
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Originally Posted by Guerzy View Post
Here's the thing with Byfuglien that really irked me. When Noel moved him to forward, he seemed to dog it. Everyone knows he is and wants to be a defenseman, but I didn't like what appeared to be his lack of effort. It's a team game, and sometimes you gotta play a role that maybe you're not very fond of, but the coaching staff believes it can be beneficial to the team.

In my opinion, he dogged it so he could revert back to defence, he moped about it and it showed on the ice in my opinion. I didn't like that. Personally, if you want my honest opinion, I think that was (perhaps is) what may be his ticket out of Winnipeg. I have an inkling of a feeling that really didn't sit well with management.

Maybe I am completely wrong, but it's my hunch. As a fan, that was the time when I turned 100% ok with dealing Dustin Byfuglien out of Winnipeg. At a time when the team was fighting tooth and nail for a playoff spot as the season was coming to an end, he really didn't devote himself to a team game, instead it was a selfish act. Again, in my opinion, of course.
I didn't think Buff was dogging it at RW. I thought he was lost and rightfully so.

Moving him to RW was stupid.

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06-12-2013, 09:40 AM
  #129
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Originally Posted by Guerzy View Post
Here's the thing with Byfuglien that really irked me. When Noel moved him to forward, he seemed to dog it. Everyone knows he is and wants to be a defenseman, but I didn't like what appeared to be his lack of effort. It's a team game, and sometimes you gotta play a role that maybe you're not very fond of, but the coaching staff believes it can be beneficial to the team.

In my opinion, he dogged it so he could revert back to defence, he moped about it and it showed on the ice in my opinion. I didn't like that. Personally, if you want my honest opinion, I think that was (perhaps is) what may be his ticket out of Winnipeg. I have an inkling of a feeling that really didn't sit well with management.

Maybe I am completely wrong, but it's my hunch. As a fan, that was the time when I turned 100% ok with dealing Dustin Byfuglien out of Winnipeg. At a time when the team was fighting tooth and nail for a playoff spot as the season was coming to an end, he really didn't devote himself to a team game, instead it was a selfish act. Again, in my opinion, of course.
I felt the same way. That was the turning point for me regarding Buff's commitment to the team. I don't agree that he was simply lost out there, he's a very accomplished player and he was certainly moping imo.

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06-12-2013, 10:00 AM
  #130
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Originally Posted by truck View Post
I didn't think Buff was dogging it at RW. I thought he was lost and rightfully so.

Moving him to RW was stupid.
Perhaps a bit of that. But I thought he just didn't apply himself and give the effort that the coaching staff was looking for, he looked disinterested and not at all engaged in the play. I also remember during those games seeing Byfuglien quit skating or just downright make a lazy play. Pretty sure whoever was broadcasting the game that night made an example of it too. Going back and reading the GDT and PGT, it's pretty clear I'm not the only one who noticed Byfuglien's disappearing act when moved to forward. As someone stated in the PGT, with his total lack of effort, you can't even judge if he was good or bad because by all indications he didn't even give it a chance.

As a fan I just got the vibe that for Byfuglien it wasn't where he wanted to be, so he didn't quite give it the effort. I remember being fairly pissed off with him.

I don't think it was stupid at all, though, for Noel to try it. It was a coach trying to boost his team in an area in which was lacking (hint, hint, Chevy.. supply him the proper tools for next year). I won't ever fault a coach for trying, especially when we've seen Byfuglien be an impact player at forward once upon a time.


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06-12-2013, 10:45 AM
  #131
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Originally Posted by truck View Post
I didn't think Buff was dogging it at RW. I thought he was lost and rightfully so.

Moving him to RW was stupid.
agreed. moving buff to forward was a lose lose scenario. it looked desperate, and didn't give you any game plan going forward.

possible outcomes

1: you win. Great. Was playing buff at forward the cause? if so, why the hell didn't you try it before? you've been using this player wrong for two years.

2: you lose. Suprise suprise, your judgement so far has been right, so all you've done was make yourself look desperate.


i did not like the decision when it was made and i don't like it now.

I also did not think buff "dogged it".

The whole team was getting shut down for those two games. The game before everyone ragged on all of our players for dogging it. The next game "looked" the same, but only buff got the lightning rod of "dogging it". I personally think we're completely incapable of separating "effort" from being outplayed a lot of the time.

It's not surprising, we get very emotionally attached to the game, we overestimate our abilities, and simply we don't like the excuse of "getting beat by a better team" especially if the team is lower in the standings. We want an explanation that fits our narrative. The explanation that the players "didn't try" allows our team to still be great while giving us an explanation for the loss, it fits the narrative.

Sometimes even a team that's "worse" then you has the right types of players/strategies/etc to just be your "tonic" and shut you down.

I'm not going to crucify buff for not being able to get it going in a position he hadn't played in two years, the result of a very of obviously desperate decision by the coach, and in two games where no forward on the team was able to get anything going.


given the circumstances i'd say it'd be pretty damn hard to tell if buff "wasn't trying" with any sort of certainty.

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06-12-2013, 10:49 AM
  #132
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You make many valid points, in my opinion, Grind, but Byfuglien got benched in the game I am referring to. Pretty self explanatory and easy to pick out his **** poor play and nonchalant effort. It can be pretty easy in my opinion to separate the two of effort and being outplayed, imo.


And nobody was asking Byfuglien to be superman, but come on... watching plays unfold and not doing zip? not moving your legs? not tying up a guys stick... we're talking the bare basics here. Far from rocket science.

And of course other players do and did these same things, I won't deny that, either. Like I said though, this is my opinion and how I feel now and how I felt after watching him at forward.


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06-12-2013, 10:54 AM
  #133
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Grind View Post
I personally think we're completely incapable of separating "effort" from being outplayed a lot of the time.

It's not surprising, we get very emotionally attached to the game ....
I agree wholeheartedly and know I'm guilty of it all the time

I wish TSN Jets provided replays to offer up a sober second look for those of us without family/social lives or people who work evening shifts and can't catch the game live

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06-12-2013, 10:57 AM
  #134
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How do we assume a guy who has trained his entire life at the position of defense can just switch to a new position and play at an elite level? He isn't superman. The ridiculousness of of the expectations are ridiculous.

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06-12-2013, 11:13 AM
  #135
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Guerzy View Post
You make many valid points, in my opinion, Grind, but Byfuglien got benched in the game I am referring to. Pretty self explanatory and easy to pick out his **** poor play and nonchalant effort. It can be pretty easy in my opinion to separate the two of effort and being outplayed, imo.

Like I said though, this is my opinion and how I feel now and how I felt after watching him at forward.


And nobody was asking Byfuglien to be superman, but come on... watching plays unfold and not doing zip? not moving your legs? not tying up a guys stick... we're talking the bare basics here. Far from rocket science.
When Noel indicated he was going to do this, I said to a friend that this might work but Buff seems just the type of guy who will try to play his way out of it. And to a certain extent I believe that this is what happened. Yes playing at a position he hadn't been in for a couple of years would be difficult, and the results might reflect that. But moving your feet and being involved is a basic part of the game. I would've been ok with him being caught completely out of position a few times if it was due to confusion and effort. I'm not sure that is what I saw.

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06-12-2013, 11:14 AM
  #136
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Originally Posted by supahdupah View Post
How do we assume a guy who has trained his entire life at the position of defense can just switch to a new position and play at an elite level? He isn't superman. The ridiculousness of of the expectations are ridiculous.
No one was expecting an elite level. He seemed to be giving very little effort even compared to his occasional lax defensive shifts. It's not like he had never played forward before. A substantial chunk of his nhl games have come at forward. Heck Brent Burns hadn't played forward for many years and was a huge impact player when he switched back. Wasn't expecting that from Buff, just some type of effort and wherewithal for the position.

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06-12-2013, 11:21 AM
  #137
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Guerzy View Post
Here's the thing with Byfuglien that really irked me. When Noel moved him to forward, he seemed to dog it. Everyone knows he is and wants to be a defenseman, but I didn't like what appeared to be his lack of effort. It's a team game, and sometimes you gotta play a role that maybe you're not very fond of, but the coaching staff believes it can be beneficial to the team.

In my opinion, he dogged it so he could revert back to defence, he moped about it and it showed on the ice in my opinion. I didn't like that. Personally, if you want my honest opinion, I think that was (perhaps is) what may be his ticket out of Winnipeg. I have an inkling of a feeling that really didn't sit well with management.

Maybe I am completely wrong, but it's my hunch. As a fan, that was the time when I turned 100% ok with dealing Dustin Byfuglien out of Winnipeg. At a time when the team was fighting tooth and nail for a playoff spot as the season was coming to an end, he really didn't devote himself to a team game, instead it was a selfish act. Again, in my opinion, of course.
100% agree, his effort in that game as a forward was pretty lacklustre and he didn't look like he even broke a sweat, don't play me where I want to play and I won't try came out load and clear, his maturity level seems pretty low for a man his age.

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06-12-2013, 11:23 AM
  #138
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Originally Posted by supahdupah View Post
How do we assume a guy who has trained his entire life at the position of defense can just switch to a new position and play at an elite level? He isn't superman. The ridiculousness of of the expectations are ridiculous.
He played forward in his time with the Black Hawks so forward wasn't new to him.

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06-12-2013, 11:26 AM
  #139
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Count me in the camp that thinks Buff could work at forward if he truly applied himself. He's done it before and he could do it again.

I think he's better as a defenseman overall, but if that guy was in good enough shape to play forward he could be a bonafide top six winger. Instead he dogged it for a game and everything went back to the way it was. Like was just said: Burns did it in SJ and it worked out great.

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06-12-2013, 11:42 AM
  #140
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1. I wasn't a fan of moving Buff to wing (I assumed he would be less than jacked)
2. I think he didn't adapt well by choice
3. I am squarely in the camp that thinks he totally dogged it.

Buff has zero interest in playing forward again, he has said it in interviews (IIRC) and he showed it by his effort in the trial run IMHO. However, I also believe he is much better suited to defense anyways so onward and upward.

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06-12-2013, 11:47 AM
  #141
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I enter one scramble golf tournament and miss a day on the board and look at what one article in the Freep creates. Honestly the debate has been pretty entertaining and all sides have been covered off pretty well on our board. :handclap

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06-12-2013, 11:48 AM
  #142
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Originally Posted by bhay1987 View Post
Count me in the camp that thinks Buff could work at forward if he truly applied himself. He's done it before and he could do it again.

I think he's better as a defenseman overall, but if that guy was in good enough shape to play forward he could be a bonafide top six winger. Instead he dogged it for a game and everything went back to the way it was. Like was just said: Burns did it in SJ and it worked out great.
well true, but it always come back to a moot point to me.

No matter what shape he's in, Buff will always be a much more impactfull player at Defense then at forward.

as for burns: burns was told he was going forward and had several practices before being switched if i recall correctly.

I dunno. I'm ok with moving buff, but I also think he gets an unfair rap for work ethic etc.

THese guys are human, and I'm just not ready to crucify the guy or get steaming mad at him for for maybve not giving 100% to a desperate (and stupid, IMO) plan for a game and a half.

Point being: best case scenario buff at forward is a decent power forward. he's never even really been that before. Best case scenario buff at deference is a game breaker. Regardless of 'shaking up the bench' that will always seem like a stupid trade off in my mind.



anyways, regardless of weight conditioning etc etc etc Buff is a very effective d man and a game changer. I hope we don't trade him for anything less because of his body type or attitude. It's not as if he's a lockerroom cancer or anything.

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06-12-2013, 11:54 AM
  #143
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Every time people start talking about Buff it always comes back to him playing forward. Buff has said and has been quoted as saying he "prefers" defense, and that's only because he's trying to be politically correct and not to come out and refuse to play forward.

If the Jets insist on making him a forward, then they might as well trade him now, because you are going to get zero effort from him if you make him play where he doesn't want. Buff knows there is enough demand for him elsewhere, so make him a forward, go ahead, see what happens.

I don't care who asks the question, but the question of the thread and the one the Jets need to answer is... is Buff FAT? And is it affecting his play?

If the answer is yes he's orca fat, but no it's not hurting his play, then let's shut-up about it.

If the answer is yes he's orca fat, and yes it's hurting his play, then the Jets need to sit him down and have a heart to heart and find out if he's ever going to grow up and take responsibility for this issue, and if not... move him.

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06-12-2013, 12:00 PM
  #144
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Originally Posted by ps241 View Post
1. I wasn't a fan of moving Buff to wing (I assumed he would be less than jacked)
2. I think he didn't adapt well by choice
3. I am squarely in the camp that thinks he totally dogged it.

Buff has zero interest in playing forward again, he has said it in interviews (IIRC) and he showed it by his effort in the trial run IMHO. However, I also believe he is much better suited to defense anyways so onward and upward.
pretty much this.

I don't know if I'd say he "dogged it" so much as he just didn't really go out of his way to do well at forward. I mean from his perspective, if he looks good out there at forward, that makes it all the more easy for that move to be made in the future and he has no interest in that. I don't think Noel expected it to work either though. I think he was just willing to try it to spark the team. I also think it was born of some frustration with how Buff had been playing defensively at the time...

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06-12-2013, 12:05 PM
  #145
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Ok guys, lets face facts here...there is no possible way that Buff is actually 302lbs. I'm pretty sure that without some sort of medical
Condition like a thyroid or something. In which case, it's not his fault, and it will need medical intervention.

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06-12-2013, 12:16 PM
  #146
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Originally Posted by cbcwpg View Post
Every time people start talking about Buff it always comes back to him playing forward. Buff has said and has been quoted as saying he "prefers" defense, and that's only because he's trying to be politically correct and not to come out and refuse to play forward.

If the Jets insist on making him a forward, then they might as well trade him now, because you are going to get zero effort from him if you make him play where he doesn't want. Buff knows there is enough demand for him elsewhere, so make him a forward, go ahead, see what happens.

I don't care who asks the question, but the question of the thread and the one the Jets need to answer is... is Buff FAT? And is it affecting his play?

If the answer is yes he's orca fat, but no it's not hurting his play, then let's shut-up about it.

If the answer is yes he's orca fat, and yes it's hurting his play, then the Jets need to sit him down and have a heart to heart and find out if he's ever going to grow up and take responsibility for this issue, and if not... move him.
Could not agree more. I also don't think it's affecting his play. He had a semi down year this year, I'm going to attribute that to his grandfather's death and not having Bogo or Enstrom for parts of the season. In the past 3 years, he's been a top 3 OFD. His size might even help him rather than hinder him.

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06-12-2013, 01:15 PM
  #147
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Originally Posted by maximus tacitus View Post
I agree wholeheartedly and know I'm guilty of it all the time

I wish TSN Jets provided replays to offer up a sober second look for those of us without family/social lives or people who work evening shifts and can't catch the game live
Dave Tippett says he watches hockey games on mute because the narratives are often wrong and false

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06-12-2013, 01:18 PM
  #148
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Originally Posted by truck View Post
I didn't think Buff was dogging it at RW. I thought he was lost and rightfully so.

Moving him to RW was stupid.
I completely agree. It was the kind of move that you would expect from a PeeWee coach, not in the NHL. Imagine any other NHL team moving one of their top D-men to forward during the stretch run. Moreover, Buff was offensively productive last season from D, so it's not clear what Noel was trying to accomplish, other than send some sort of message to Buff. If he did it for that purpose, that is even worse - petty in the extreme.

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06-12-2013, 01:22 PM
  #149
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Just looking at Jets 2.0, when Jets had one of the two following pairs on the ice:
Enstrom-Byfuglien
Hainsey-Bogosian

They have owned 54% of possession and 52% of goals. <= FYI that's really good.

Jets lost 25% of of their top 4 D man games.
They only had Tobi-Buff for 25% of Buff's TOI and 65% of Enstrom's TOI.
They only had Ron-Bogo for 45% of Hainsey's TOI and 70% of Bogosian's TOI.

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06-12-2013, 01:25 PM
  #150
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This should help:

Winnipeg Free Press Chips in to Buy Dustin Byfuglien Gym Membership

http://www.lighthousehockey.com/2013...-humour-satire

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