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Old
06-11-2013, 08:52 AM
  #1
488fitter
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Oilers - Wings

Can a deal be made around Horcoff and Tootoo? What is the "x" amount of dollars needed to be retained by Edmonton for Horcoff's inflated contract, or what else needs to be added to the mix?

Horcoff seems to be a proud Michigan boy, and would give Detroit some solid depth.

Tootoo would bring energy to a young oiler squad, and of course bring in some much needed grit and agitation for the opponent.


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06-11-2013, 08:56 AM
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no chance detroit moves helm, period

no chance detroit takes on horcoffs contract for anything more then 1.5 million a season as after he is bought out, thats about what he will sign for with whoever it happens to be(think gomez/redden but slightly better)

detroit cant lose tootoo as he is our only real tough guy(as much as he is one)

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06-11-2013, 09:00 AM
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Detroit isn't giving up Helm, and I doubt Tootoo goes. They seem to like him when his role is necessary.

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06-11-2013, 09:02 AM
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Horcoff (with some $$) retained is definitely worth something. Barring the last 12 games (which is still just unexplainable), the Oilers collected most of their points with Horcoff in the lineup as opposed to when he was injured. While Tootoo does add some grit, I don't see anything that warrants seeking him specifically. He cannot really play any effective minutes for you. Helm, on the other hand, is a player Edmonton should have interest in. Excellent skater, hard worker. Detroit would be nuts to move him without filling a significant need on the team. Is Horcoff really an upgrade for them a a position of weakness?

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06-11-2013, 09:10 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Slatsmsg View Post
Is Horcoff really an upgrade for them a a position of weakness?
I'm no wings expert, but I would assume he would be an upgrade to their 3C position after looking at the roster. Helm and Abdelkader would be awesome additions but I figured Tootoo would be easier to acquire.

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06-11-2013, 09:21 AM
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Originally Posted by OilCountry84 View Post
I'm no wings expert, but I would assume he would be an upgrade to their 3C position after looking at the roster. Helm and Abdelkader would be awesome additions but I figured Tootoo would be easier to acquire.
helm is our 3rd line centre and he is better, cheaper and younger and faster then horcoff is today

again detroit does not need 1 single bottom 6 forward, not one,

case closed

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06-11-2013, 09:23 AM
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Originally Posted by OilCountry84 View Post
Can a deal be made around Horcoff and Tootoo? What is the "x" amount of dollars needed to be retained by Edmonton for Horcoff's inflated contract, or what else needs to be added to the mix? Maybe smaller pieces from both sides such as Jones' rights to replace Tootoo + pick, and possibly Helm coming back the other way?

Horcoff seems to be a proud Michigan boy, and would give Detroit some solid depth as their 3rd line center.

Tootoo would bring energy to a young oiler squad, and of course bring in some much needed grit and agitation for the opponent.
First off if the rumors are true that Horcoff wants to finish his career in Detroit, Then Edmonton as i see it has no leverage. Horcoff can pretty much say where he wants to go, I actually dont see Ken Holland trading for him since he is technically a $5.5M version of Dan Cleary, There both 34 years old and pretty much put up the same numbers and Cleary can be had for less then half of Horcroffs value. The only way i see Detroit interested in Horcoff is if he's boughtout, Even with Edmonton retaining some money i dont see ken Holland being interested in Horcoff and the value of Jordin Tootoo to the Wings is greater then the value of Shawn Horcoff would be to the Wings. Jordin Tootoo will bring us way more value once we go to the east next season, Sorry Horcoff may have interest in Detroit but i dont see Detroit having interest in him we can resign Dan Cleary much cheaper and have the same value as Shawn Horcoff.

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06-11-2013, 09:28 AM
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Originally Posted by Zetterberg4Captain View Post
helm is our 3rd line centre and he is better, cheaper and younger and faster then horcoff is today

again detroit does not need 1 single bottom 6 forward, not one,

case closed
Fair enough. I tried to do a little researching before I made the thread and when I brought up helm it was because it list him as a LW and not a center, so my bad. The last roster update I found had Andersson as your 3C but Helm was also injured.

I'd rather the discussion be about Tootoo anyways so I'll just take the mention of Helm out of the OP.

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06-11-2013, 09:32 AM
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Originally Posted by Slatsmsg View Post
Horcoff (with some $$) retained is definitely worth something. Barring the last 12 games (which is still just unexplainable), the Oilers collected most of their points with Horcoff in the lineup as opposed to when he was injured. While Tootoo does add some grit, I don't see anything that warrants seeking him specifically. He cannot really play any effective minutes for you. Helm, on the other hand, is a player Edmonton should have interest in. Excellent skater, hard worker. Detroit would be nuts to move him without filling a significant need on the team. Is Horcoff really an upgrade for them a a position of weakness?
Sorry in what world would Detroit ever trade Helm who is 27 years old and one of the fastest skaters in the NHL for an aging 34 year old Shawn Horcoff dont think so. First off with Horcoffs contract of $5.5M for the next 2 years Edmonton does'nt have hardly any leverage If the rumors are true that Horcoff wants to finish his career with Detroit since his family home is there his Wife Cindy is from there. Then maybe Detroit might have some interest but not at the price of what Horcoff cost now even if Edmonton were to eat half of Horcoffs salary i would'nt see Detroit having any interest in him. Being realistic i see Detroit more Interested in Hemsky then Horcoff Hemsky could easilly replace Filppula once he leaves for free agency. But sorry in no way would Detroit trade Helm for Horcoff not in a million years.

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06-11-2013, 09:39 AM
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@number1redwingsfan52

A Horcoff for Helm swap was never proposed. I believe he was just saying Helm would be a player that would interest Edmonton. Then when on to say Detroit would be nuts to trade Helm.

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06-11-2013, 09:46 AM
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Originally Posted by OilCountry84 View Post
@number1redwingsfan52

A Horcoff for Helm swap was never proposed. I believe he was just saying Helm would be a player that would interest Edmonton. Then when on to say Detroit would be nuts to trade Helm.
Of course trading a 27 year old Helm for Horcoff would be crazy and would never happen on Detroits part Helmer is part of out future going forward he has tremendous speed one of the fastest skaters in the league along with Nyquist. I know he was'nt asking for a Helm for a Horcoff swap it would never happen in a million years. The only person out there that i could see Detroit trading Helm for would be Shea Weber possibly Malkin but other then that not much else.

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06-11-2013, 09:53 AM
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Originally Posted by Number1RedWingsFan52 View Post
Of course trading a 27 year old Helm for Horcoff would be crazy and would never happen on Detroits part Helmer is part of out future going forward he has tremendous speed one of the fastest skaters in the league along with Nyquist. I know he was'nt asking for a Helm for a Horcoff swap it would never happen in a million years. The only person out there that i could see Detroit trading Helm for would be Shea Weber possibly Malkin but other then that not much else.
Huh?

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06-11-2013, 09:58 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Number1RedWingsFan52 View Post
Of course trading a 27 year old Helm for Horcoff would be crazy and would never happen on Detroits part Helmer is part of out future going forward he has tremendous speed one of the fastest skaters in the league along with Nyquist. I know he was'nt asking for a Helm for a Horcoff swap it would never happen in a million years. The only person out there that i could see Detroit trading Helm for would be Shea Weber possibly Malkin but other then that not much else.

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06-11-2013, 10:01 AM
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Originally Posted by Number1RedWingsFan52 View Post
The only person out there that i could see Detroit trading Helm for would be Shea Weber possibly Malkin but other then that not much else.
"Possibly Malkin" tells me you would have to think about it? I wasn't aware Helm was of superstar caliber.

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06-11-2013, 10:07 AM
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"Possibly Malkin" tells me you would have to think about it? I wasn't aware Helm was of superstar caliber.

I'm pretty sure he was talking about a package lol, but I don't think Detroit is a good superstar buyer at the moment. They don't want to let go of their current stars but don't want to let go of their high end prospects either, because they're going to need them.

Just doesnt bode well if looking for a star player.

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06-11-2013, 10:14 AM
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Originally Posted by Number1RedWingsFan52 View Post
Of course trading a 27 year old Helm for Horcoff would be crazy and would never happen on Detroits part Helmer is part of out future going forward he has tremendous speed one of the fastest skaters in the league along with Nyquist. I know he was'nt asking for a Helm for a Horcoff swap it would never happen in a million years. The only person out there that i could see Detroit trading Helm for would be Shea Weber possibly Malkin but other then that not much else.
I can think of a bunch of players they'd flip Helm for if given the chance.

For that matter, who knows what Helm's health is going to be like next season and beyond?

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06-11-2013, 10:15 AM
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"Possibly Malkin" tells me you would have to think about it? I wasn't aware Helm was of superstar caliber.
I never said that Helm was a superstar? What i meant to say is that if Detroit were willing to unload Helm in a package deal it would most likely be for a Weber/Malkin type of player not for an aging Horcoff and i'm not saying that Edmonton would ask for a Helm for Horcoff swap because like i said it would never happen in a million years Helm has far more value to Detroit then Horcoff would ever have. I can see Ken Holland having far more interest in Hemsky then Horcoff since Hemsky has always been Hollands favorite non Wings player.

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06-11-2013, 10:23 AM
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I can think of a bunch of players they'd flip Helm for if given the chance.

For that matter, who knows what Helm's health is going to be like next season and beyond?
Yeah I'm sure there are tons of other players out there that Detroit would flip Helm for Weber and Malkin just came to mind. And I agree that it would be premature to even discuss Helm since we dont even know what his health situation is going forward, It sounds like that they meaning Holland and Babcock think that Helmer will be okay by the start of training camp sure hope so and FYI Red Wing team physician Dr Anthony Collucci Is my best friend we grew up together and graduated from High School together he will make sure that Helmer is good to go

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06-11-2013, 10:29 AM
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no chance detroit moves helm, period

no chance detroit takes on horcoffs contract for anything more then 1.5 million a season as after he is bought out, thats about what he will sign for with whoever it happens to be(think gomez/redden but slightly better)

detroit cant lose tootoo as he is our only real tough guy(as much as he is one)
Good thing you aren't a pro scout.

First of all, its highly unlikely that Horcoff is bought out. There will be teams looking for a pk'ing third line center. Which is what he is. And you are delusional if you think he would only get 1.5 million on the open market. I would imagine he gets at least 2.5, going rate for a third line center. Which he is. Your Gomez and Redden comparisons are laughable, they are barely NHL players at this point. Horcoff may have been overpaid for years, but he is still a quality NHL player.

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06-11-2013, 10:32 AM
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First off if the rumors are true that Horcoff wants to finish his career in Detroit, Then Edmonton as i see it has no leverage. Horcoff can pretty much say where he wants to go, I actually dont see Ken Holland trading for him since he is technically a $5.5M version of Dan Cleary, There both 34 years old and pretty much put up the same numbers and Cleary can be had for less then half of Horcroffs value. The only way i see Detroit interested in Horcoff is if he's boughtout, Even with Edmonton retaining some money i dont see ken Holland being interested in Horcoff and the value of Jordin Tootoo to the Wings is greater then the value of Shawn Horcoff would be to the Wings. Jordin Tootoo will bring us way more value once we go to the east next season, Sorry Horcoff may have interest in Detroit but i dont see Detroit having interest in him we can resign Dan Cleary much cheaper and have the same value as Shawn Horcoff.
Your entire essay is wrong based on the bolded. He has a limited NTC, which means at worst he has to pick 10 teams. But he wants out of Edmonton just as badly as we want him gone, and the GM says he is welcome back if a trade isn`t there, so if Horcoff wants to leave, which he does, I doubt he plays hardball and pulls the "I'm only playing in these markets" card. I could see there being 5 or 6 teams (bottom feeders) he doesn't want to go to, but other than that, he'll likely just accept a trade and be done with it.

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06-11-2013, 10:38 AM
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Seems to me some of the Oiler faithful have bought Mactavish's malarkey hook line and sinker. Even if the oilers eat as much of Horcoff and Hemsky's contract as they can, they will only get maybe a 4th rounder for Horcoff and a second for injury prone Hemsky. Anytime oiler fans suggest us Canuck fans are shooting for the moon with Luongo, we just got post links to nearly any oiler poster trade idea to rebuff their position on how us Canuck fan have no idea of who has what value. Horcoff for what he does and his contract has a negative value and his corsi numbers leave much to b e desired

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06-11-2013, 10:40 AM
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Good thing you aren't a pro scout.

First of all, its highly unlikely that Horcoff is bought out. There will be teams looking for a pk'ing third line center. Which is what he is. And you are delusional if you think he would only get 1.5 million on the open market. I would imagine he gets at least 2.5, going rate for a third line center. Which he is. Your Gomez and Redden comparisons are laughable, they are barely NHL players at this point. Horcoff may have been overpaid for years, but he is still a quality NHL player.
players being bought out looking for new contracts dont or wont get as much as they would if they were typical ufa's

i dont think horcoff gets bought out(if he actually does) and then goes and signs for 2.5 million a season

dosent matter if i am a pro scout or not

move along

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06-11-2013, 10:42 AM
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Originally Posted by Zetterberg4Captain View Post
players being bought out looking for new contracts dont or wont get as much as they would if they were typical ufa's

i dont think horcoff gets bought out(if he actually does) and then goes and signs for 2.5 million a season

dosent matter if i am a pro scout or not

move along
Players being bought out usually don't get good contracts because they are usually awful players. That's not the case here, he needs a change of scenery, and had a good season once again by third line centers standards. You obviously don't know the situation or the player.

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06-11-2013, 10:45 AM
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Seems to me some of the Oiler faithful have bought Mactavish's malarkey hook line and sinker. Even if the oilers eat as much of Horcoff and Hemsky's contract as they can, they will only get maybe a 4th rounder for Horcoff and a second for injury prone Hemsky. Anytime oiler fans suggest us Canuck fans are shooting for the moon with Luongo, we just got post links to nearly any oiler poster trade idea to rebuff their position on how us Canuck fan have no idea of who has what value. Horcoff for what he does and his contract has a negative value and his corsi numbers leave much to b e desired
Nobody has ever said that Horcoff isn't overpaid. But the Oilers are likely willing to eat salary, and his salary is actually quite a bit lower than his cap hit, which some teams really like. I don't see anyone buying anything from MacTavish, as he didn't really say much aside from wanting to move these two guys. He never said anything about what return he expects or anything like that. "Negative value" is such a b.s. term, the number of times a player has actually had negative value can be counted on one hand, and neither of these guys qualify.

For the record, nobody really expects the moon either. With Horcoff, we'll take what we can get and that's fine. Hemsky will get us a piece we need I'm sure, but not anything flashy or exciting.

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06-11-2013, 10:47 AM
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Players being bought out usually don't get good contracts because they are usually awful players. That's not the case here, he needs a change of scenery, and had a good season once again by third line centers standards. You obviously don't know the situation or the player.
no players who get bought out are usually players who arent good enough for the money they make,

the oilers would not buyout their captain solely because they feel he needs a change of scenery my man

anyhow it doesnt really matter as horcoff isnt as good as detroits current third line centre(helm), certainly wont get paid more then helm and nor is he worth as much

so start at 2.125(helms salary) million and work backwards based on age(about 7 years apart) and factor in horcoff being bought out and we'll agree thats the # he would command

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