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Old
06-11-2013, 10:50 AM
  #26
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Originally Posted by zeus3007 View Post
Your entire essay is wrong based on the bolded. He has a limited NTC, which means at worst he has to pick 10 teams. But he wants out of Edmonton just as badly as we want him gone, and the GM says he is welcome back if a trade isn`t there, so if Horcoff wants to leave, which he does, I doubt he plays hardball and pulls the "I'm only playing in these markets" card. I could see there being 5 or 6 teams (bottom feeders) he doesn't want to go to, but other than that, he'll likely just accept a trade and be done with it.
Okay you just proved my point? So how was i wrong Horcoff has to give a list of 10 teams that he would accept a trade to, So I'm right he can pretty much choose where he wants to play I'm not saying that any of those 10 teams that he listed would want him all i'm saying is that he pretty much can determine where he wants to go and on the Edmonton boards most Oiler fans said that Horcoff only wanted to play for Detroit since that's where he lives and he wants to finish his career at home so it still sounds to me that even if it's not in Detroit that he will finish his career near Detroit maybe Columbus or Toronto or possibly Pittsburgh somewhere close to home.

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06-11-2013, 10:51 AM
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hemsky, horcoff and potter (renneys boy) for helm and tootoo. We will retain salary. You guys may need hemsky if filpula doesn't resign.

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06-11-2013, 10:53 AM
  #28
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hemsky, horcoff and potter (renneys boy) for helm and tootoo. We will retain salary. You guys may need hemsky if filpula doesn't resign.
no

if we lose filppula its to get better and bigger not softer and smaller in our top 6

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06-11-2013, 10:57 AM
  #29
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no players who get bought out are usually players who arent good enough for the money they make,

the oilers would not buyout their captain solely because they feel he needs a change of scenery my man

anyhow it doesnt really matter as horcoff isnt as good as detroits current third line centre(helm), certainly wont get paid more then helm and nor is he worth as much

so start at 2.125(helms salary) million and work backwards based on age(about 7 years apart) and factor in horcoff being bought out and we'll agree thats the # he would command
I hope you aren't serious. Redden and Gomez, your two examples, are barely NHL players, and not close to the player Horcoff is. The only buy out I can think of who could have still been anything more than a 12th forward or 6th d-man was Yashin, and we all know that his was attitude based.

The Oilers ARE buying out their captain because he needs a change of scenery. Again, trying to argue this shows that you really don't understand the situation. He is no longer the team leader despite having the "C", has been on a losing team forever and needs to move to another team, that has been said openly by MacT. It has nothing to do with his on ice play. In fact, the Oilers were a much better team when Horcoff was on the ice last year. IF he's bought out, which I doubt, he would bring the going rate for UFA 3rd line centers, somewhere in the 2.5 million range.

And your math doesn't work either. That's not how UFA signings work. No GM looks at guys currently signed (especially ones signed to deals that were made as RFA's) and think, player x is making 2, but is way younger, so player y is only worth 1.

I can understand that you guys don`t need him, but you don't need to resort to making things up to try to run him down. A simple, "nope, we have Helm, don't need a third line center`would do.

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06-11-2013, 10:59 AM
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Originally Posted by No Good Names Left View Post
hemsky, horcoff and potter (renneys boy) for helm and tootoo. We will retain salary. You guys may need hemsky if filpula doesn't resign.
Why not ship them out Eager and Hordichuk too? Horrible deal for Detroit. If Renney has any say, I could see them having interest in Potter though, for some reason, Renney was in love with him. I hope for Detroits sake that they don't get him though, he's a train wreck with a decent shot.

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06-11-2013, 11:01 AM
  #31
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Originally Posted by No Good Names Left View Post
hemsky, horcoff and potter (renneys boy) for helm and tootoo. We will retain salary. You guys may need hemsky if filpula doesn't resign.
We dont need Hemsky to replace Filppulas numbers, Trust me that's why we have Nyquist he's more then capable of replacing Filppulas numbers as is Tatar. I have suggested Hemsky as a possible replacement of Filppula only because Ken Holland has been high on Hemsky in the past but each time he backs away from Hemsky because of his injury history. We can still go after Horton, Weiss, Clarkson any one of them will easilly make up for the loss of Filppula.

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06-11-2013, 11:02 AM
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Okay you just proved my point? So how was i wrong Horcoff has to give a list of 10 teams that he would accept a trade to, So I'm right he can pretty much choose where he wants to play I'm not saying that any of those 10 teams that he listed would want him all i'm saying is that he pretty much can determine where he wants to go and on the Edmonton boards most Oiler fans said that Horcoff only wanted to play for Detroit since that's where he lives and he wants to finish his career at home so it still sounds to me that even if it's not in Detroit that he will finish his career near Detroit maybe Columbus or Toronto or possibly Pittsburgh somewhere close to home.
Nobody has said he only wants to play for Detroit. Stop twisting words. He does live in Michigan, so it makes sense that the Wings would be on the top of his list. He doesn't get to pick where he gets to go. He gets to narrow it down to 10, that's a third of the league. Hardly getting to pick where you go. Plus, as I mentioned, he wants out of Edmonton, so if MacT tells him flat out that he isn't being bought out under any circumstances, he'll waive the NTC for pretty much any team. I could see him not wanting to go to teams like Edmonton (rebuilders...Calgary, Colorado, Florida), but that's about it. There's still around 25 teams that I can see him going to if they want him.

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06-11-2013, 11:05 AM
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We dont need Hemsky to replace Filppulas numbers, Trust me that's why we have Nyquist he's more then capable of replacing Filppulas numbers as is Tatar. I have suggested Hemsky as a possible replacement of Filppula only because Ken Holland has been high on Hemsky in the past but each time he backs away from Hemsky because of his injury history. We can still go after Horton, Weiss, Clarkson any one of them will easilly make up for the loss of Filppula.
In the past, I don't think he backed away because of injury history. If the injury history was the problem, he wouldn't have been asking in the first place. Up until this year, Hemsky was never really on the trade block. Available for the right price, yes, but not being shopped. When we traded Penner to LA, they wanted Hemsky but we wanted a higher price because Hemsky was still an important part of the team. He doesn't fit as a third line winger here though, and we have Eberle and Yakupov ahead of him. I think Detroit still may have interest if the price is right, regardless of injury history. I won't speculate on what that price is though.

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06-11-2013, 11:06 AM
  #34
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If Helm wasn't ready to go and EDM would eat 1/2 of Horcoff's Salary I'd consider it. It may be to much for the Oilers but the Wings in the cap era don't take on contracts that could limit their future moves. After Helm got hurt this year we had no 3rd line center but as time went on Andersson really showed he could play that role. Then add in the fact that over the next 1-2 years we will have Sheahan & Jarnkrok coming up we don't exactly need a 3C.

While I wouldn't mind moving Tootoo he works his ass off every shift but that's all he does, he can't PK so he finds himself on the bench come playoff time. If we can move him for something of value, like a a pick or a B/B- prospect, I'd do it. It would clear the logjam of forwards we have and we would clear some salary. We could then re-sign Miller or Cleary at around 1M-1.5M & we'd still save 400k-900k in cap savings.

Would you be willing to move your 2nd or 3rd for Tootoo? Maybe something like a 3rd+4th?

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06-11-2013, 11:07 AM
  #35
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Seems to me some of the Oiler faithful have bought Mactavish's malarkey hook line and sinker. Even if the oilers eat as much of Horcoff and Hemsky's contract as they can, they will only get maybe a 4th rounder for Horcoff and a second for injury prone Hemsky. Anytime oiler fans suggest us Canuck fans are shooting for the moon with Luongo, we just got post links to nearly any oiler poster trade idea to rebuff their position on how us Canuck fan have no idea of who has what value. Horcoff for what he does and his contract has a negative value and his corsi numbers leave much to b e desired
You got that one wrong . We have not been listening to Gillis and his great return for Luongo . When was that to happen ? Last summer , after the lock out , the trade dead line ? We are still waiting . Mactavish is a man of his word , watch and you will see

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06-11-2013, 11:11 AM
  #36
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If Helm wasn't ready to go and EDM would eat 1/2 of Horcoff's Salary I'd consider it. It may be to much for the Oilers but the Wings in the cap era don't take on contracts that could limit their future moves. After Helm got hurt this year we had no 3rd line center but as time went on Andersson really showed he could play that role. Then add in the fact that over the next 1-2 years we will have Sheahan & Jarnkrok coming up we don't exactly need a 3C.

While I wouldn't mind moving Tootoo he works his ass off every shift but that's all he does, he can't PK so he finds himself on the bench come playoff time. If we can move him for something of value, like a a pick or a B/B- prospect, I'd do it. It would clear the logjam of forwards we have and we would clear some salary. We could then re-sign Miller or Cleary at around 1M-1.5M & we'd still save 400k-900k in cap savings.

Would you be willing to move your 2nd or 3rd for Tootoo? Maybe something like a 3rd+4th?
Personally, I wouldn't give up that much for Tootoo. As you said, he works hard but brings little else to the table. We can call up Hordichuk and have a slow version of that, ha ha.

And for the record, I expect the Oilers to pick up some of Horcoff's salary. What are the rules on that, is it salary, or can a team keep cap hit as well? Horcoff is still at his high cap hit, but his salary is quite a bit lower than that (3 million next year, 2 the year after). I could see teams like the Islanders and Coyotes, who are on a budget and like to hover around the cap floor, being on board with a contract that means they can pay less cash out overall.

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06-11-2013, 11:13 AM
  #37
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Nobody has said he only wants to play for Detroit. Stop twisting words. He does live in Michigan, so it makes sense that the Wings would be on the top of his list. He doesn't get to pick where he gets to go. He gets to narrow it down to 10, that's a third of the league. Hardly getting to pick where you go. Plus, as I mentioned, he wants out of Edmonton, so if MacT tells him flat out that he isn't being bought out under any circumstances, he'll waive the NTC for pretty much any team. I could see him not wanting to go to teams like Edmonton (rebuilders...Calgary, Colorado, Florida), but that's about it. There's still around 25 teams that I can see him going to if they want him.
They did to there were several Edmonton fans on there board that said that Horcoff only wanted to play for Detroit, In fact alot of them were even saying that both Horcoff and Omark would be heading to Detroit I'm not twisting there words i'm stating the facts on your own board as several Oiler fans were saying. Who cares Horcoff can go to any team out there bottom line is that Detroit wont be one of them since he have minor players coming up that will be way better then Horcoff.

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06-11-2013, 11:22 AM
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In the past, I don't think he backed away because of injury history. If the injury history was the problem, he wouldn't have been asking in the first place. Up until this year, Hemsky was never really on the trade block. Available for the right price, yes, but not being shopped. When we traded Penner to LA, they wanted Hemsky but we wanted a higher price because Hemsky was still an important part of the team. He doesn't fit as a third line winger here though, and we have Eberle and Yakupov ahead of him. I think Detroit still may have interest if the price is right, regardless of injury history. I won't speculate on what that price is though.
From what I'm to understand is that Ken Holland had the pieces together to get Hemsky but at the last possible moment he decided to back out because of his Injury issues and plus Steve Tambelinni decided to resign him instead if trading him I know some team out there will take Hemsky he has far more value then Horcoff and is 5 years younger.

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06-11-2013, 11:28 AM
  #39
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Personally, I wouldn't give up that much for Tootoo. As you said, he works hard but brings little else to the table. We can call up Hordichuk and have a slow version of that, ha ha.

And for the record, I expect the Oilers to pick up some of Horcoff's salary. What are the rules on that, is it salary, or can a team keep cap hit as well? Horcoff is still at his high cap hit, but his salary is quite a bit lower than that (3 million next year, 2 the year after). I could see teams like the Islanders and Coyotes, who are on a budget and like to hover around the cap floor, being on board with a contract that means they can pay less cash out overall.
Well he's more then your average goon is what I should have said. While he isn't excellent at anything, even fighting though his size limits him there, he is a fast skater & if he learned how to PK would be a very good 4th liner/ok 3rd liner. He only averaged 9 ES minutes a game on the Wings this year & he finished with 7 points so it's not like he can't play the game. He also had 35 points in Nashville one year IIRC.

I think the way it works is you can keep up to 50% of the player's cap hit which means you also pay 50% of the salary as well. I think that's what happens but I'm not sure.

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06-11-2013, 11:52 AM
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I hope you aren't serious. Redden and Gomez, your two examples, are barely NHL players, and not close to the player Horcoff is. The only buy out I can think of who could have still been anything more than a 12th forward or 6th d-man was Yashin, and we all know that his was attitude based.

The Oilers ARE buying out their captain because he needs a change of scenery. Again, trying to argue this shows that you really don't understand the situation. He is no longer the team leader despite having the "C", has been on a losing team forever and needs to move to another team, that has been said openly by MacT. It has nothing to do with his on ice play. In fact, the Oilers were a much better team when Horcoff was on the ice last year. IF he's bought out, which I doubt, he would bring the going rate for UFA 3rd line centers, somewhere in the 2.5 million range.

And your math doesn't work either. That's not how UFA signings work. No GM looks at guys currently signed (especially ones signed to deals that were made as RFA's) and think, player x is making 2, but is way younger, so player y is only worth 1.

I can understand that you guys don`t need him, but you don't need to resort to making things up to try to run him down. A simple, "nope, we have Helm, don't need a third line center`would do.
hahaha ok sorry, how is it then that GM's determine how much to pay a player if age, ability, etc arent to be looked at?

I am not trying to throw horcoff under the bus but to me IF he is bought out this summer he will sign somewhere else for less then 2 million a season, if he is traded, i cant see it being for much more then a later round draft pick

unless your shawn horcoff yourself who really cares

move along now

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06-11-2013, 12:02 PM
  #41
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hahaha ok sorry, how is it then that GM's determine how much to pay a player if age, ability, etc arent to be looked at?

I am not trying to throw horcoff under the bus but to me IF he is bought out this summer he will sign somewhere else for less then 2 million a season, if he is traded, i cant see it being for much more then a later round draft pick

unless your shawn horcoff yourself who really cares

move along now
Unless you are a mod, stop telling me to move along. That's twice, there's no need for it.

I think you are seriously underrating Horcoff here. If GM's looked at UFA signings like you think they do, there wouldn't be UFA overpayments, but guess what...almost every UFA who hits the market and is valuable at all gets overpaid in term, cash, or both. You simply can't compare an RFA signed Helm's deal to what a veteran UFA center is going to get. You can look at it and say, "Detroit has Helm at xxxx dollars, so we won't pay Horcoff that", but mark my words, if Horcoff is bought out (which I doubt), he'll get closer to the 2.5 million mark than the 1.5 million you think. 4th line centers who play 5 - 10 minutes per game can get 1.5 million. 3rd line centers who are great penalty killers don't go for that price.

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06-11-2013, 12:05 PM
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From what I'm to understand is that Ken Holland had the pieces together to get Hemsky but at the last possible moment he decided to back out because of his Injury issues and plus Steve Tambelinni decided to resign him instead if trading him I know some team out there will take Hemsky he has far more value then Horcoff and is 5 years younger.
I don't know what happened, I know there were negoatiations, as you said, but Tambellini's side of things was that nobody was willing to pay what we wanted. To me, that seems like a "the price is too high", not "this kid is injured too often". Although I suppose it could be "the price is too high considering this kid is injured to often", ha ha. The bottom line is that Tambellini thought it would be smarter to keep him, and at the time, unless an amazing offer was on the table, it was. Now we don't need him, so he's available.

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06-11-2013, 12:06 PM
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They did to there were several Edmonton fans on there board that said that Horcoff only wanted to play for Detroit, In fact alot of them were even saying that both Horcoff and Omark would be heading to Detroit I'm not twisting there words i'm stating the facts on your own board as several Oiler fans were saying. Who cares Horcoff can go to any team out there bottom line is that Detroit wont be one of them since he have minor players coming up that will be way better then Horcoff.
I have been on the Oilers board. There is a big difference between "Horcoff prefers to play for Detroit" and "Horcoff only wants to play for Detroit".

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06-11-2013, 12:15 PM
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Unless you are a mod, stop telling me to move along. That's twice, there's no need for it.

I think you are seriously underrating Horcoff here. If GM's looked at UFA signings like you think they do, there wouldn't be UFA overpayments, but guess what...almost every UFA who hits the market and is valuable at all gets overpaid in term, cash, or both. You simply can't compare an RFA signed Helm's deal to what a veteran UFA center is going to get. You can look at it and say, "Detroit has Helm at xxxx dollars, so we won't pay Horcoff that", but mark my words, if Horcoff is bought out (which I doubt), he'll get closer to the 2.5 million mark than the 1.5 million you think. 4th line centers who play 5 - 10 minutes per game can get 1.5 million. 3rd line centers who are great penalty killers don't go for that price.
i think guys do get overpaid but usually its from desperate GM's desperate to make a move, any move and usually the players are younger with a very good recent season(maybe even out of whack for that player)

a good example will be bickell this summer, some GM desperate for size will only see his post-season and pay him $3.5 million plus per season on a four of five year deal

unless you can show me 35 year old(2 months after free agency begins) 3rd line centres, slow and not physical, with injury history and declining numbers, however good pker's, coming off being bought out(again if that happens) in a summer when the salary cap is going down 10% who have signed for 2.5 million plus then I will agree with you, otherwise I will stick with what I think will happen based on past precedent with no emotional attachment to the players involved whatsoever

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06-11-2013, 12:47 PM
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i think guys do get overpaid but usually its from desperate GM's desperate to make a move, any move and usually the players are younger with a very good recent season(maybe even out of whack for that player)

a good example will be bickell this summer, some GM desperate for size will only see his post-season and pay him $3.5 million plus per season on a four of five year deal

unless you can show me 35 year old(2 months after free agency begins) 3rd line centres, slow and not physical, with injury history and declining numbers, however good pker's, coming off being bought out(again if that happens) in a summer when the salary cap is going down 10% who have signed for 2.5 million plus then I will agree with you, otherwise I will stick with what I think will happen based on past precedent with no emotional attachment to the players involved whatsoever
You can go to cap geek yourself and look at the going rate for 3rd line centers. You do need to double check some of your statements though.

- age only matters on long term deals. Lots of teams like veteran leadership as well. As it will almost certainly be a one or two year deal, you won't see cap hit sacrificed for term here.
- Shawn Horcoff is not slow. At all, even for a 35 year old, he has some speed.
- Injury history really only factors into things if it might affect a players ability in the upcoming season. Horcoff's injury history is well in the past, and GM's already know how his shoulder injuries have affected his game. If you are referring to last season, a broken finger rarely affects the game of a player once it is healed. Injuries are not a huge concern with Horcoff.
- Horcoff's numbers aren't actually declining, they have been where they are now for a few seasons. Again, GM's know what they are getting from Shawn Horcoff - a guy capable of 25 - 40 points in a third line role.

And for the record, there is absolutely no past precedent to support your claim that he will be signed for 1.5 maximum either. Find me another year where the cap was rolled back like this, then we`ll start with the others. You can`t ask someone else to find an example to support when you yourself cannot.

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06-11-2013, 12:56 PM
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I have been on the Oilers board. There is a big difference between "Horcoff prefers to play for Detroit" and "Horcoff only wants to play for Detroit".
Well the Oiler fans were stating that Horcoff only wanted to play for Detroit, Not that he would love to play for Detroit, So if this were true then that does'nt give Edmonton much leveage in negociations.

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06-11-2013, 12:59 PM
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Well the Oiler fans were stating that Horcoff only wanted to play for Detroit, Not that he would love to play for Detroit, So if this were true then that does'nt give Edmonton much leveage in negociations.
Link please? I've looked and there is nothing from either a reliable source, nor fans, stating that Horcoff only wants to play for Detroit. Stop making things up.

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06-11-2013, 01:09 PM
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Link please? I've looked and there is nothing from either a reliable source, nor fans, stating that Horcoff only wants to play for Detroit. Stop making things up.
Then you had better get some glasses then It's in your own Edmonton post I saw about at least 10 Oilers fans who said that a Horcoff and Omark deal to Detroit was pretty certain and guarenteed to happen.

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06-11-2013, 01:15 PM
  #49
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Originally Posted by Number1RedWingsFan52 View Post
Then you had better get some glasses then It's in your own Edmonton post I saw about at least 10 Oilers fans who said that a Horcoff and Omark deal to Detroit was pretty certain and guarenteed to happen.
Link it then. There has been a ton of speculation, that I agree with. Nobody anywhere has said that Horcoff will only go to Detroit. In fact, the opposite has been reported when Dreger said Horcoff was going to work with Oilers management to facilitate a trade. Either your reading comprehension is lacking, or you are twisting words to make it sound like "Horcoff wants to play in Detroit" means "Horcoff will play nowhere else but Detroit". Which is impossible to say anyway as he has to give a 10 team list even if he isn't cooperating. Which by all accounts, he is.

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06-11-2013, 02:57 PM
  #50
The Zetterberg Era
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Originally Posted by zeus3007 View Post
Link it then. There has been a ton of speculation, that I agree with. Nobody anywhere has said that Horcoff will only go to Detroit. In fact, the opposite has been reported when Dreger said Horcoff was going to work with Oilers management to facilitate a trade. Either your reading comprehension is lacking, or you are twisting words to make it sound like "Horcoff wants to play in Detroit" means "Horcoff will play nowhere else but Detroit". Which is impossible to say anyway as he has to give a 10 team list even if he isn't cooperating. Which by all accounts, he is.
Best option for Horcoff is to get a trade where Edmonton pays some of his contract. That way he gets paid his full value, otherwise he only gets 2/3 of his money in buyout. He will play ball with the Oilers on a trade that allows him to do that.

Problem is in terms of Detroit they have very little that interests them in this trade. My guess is if you pick up enough of Horcoff's salary for him to cost the same as Tootoo, they might just do it. Just don't think there is a deal to be made here, the Wings might call on Horcoff or Booth (another local kid they like) if they are bought out by their respective teams, but I don't think you are going to get worthwhile assets.

If I was the Wings here I would also make them eat at least one of Fournier, Coetzee and Nestrasil some of the contracts we know are never making the big club. Any trade like this I want Gleason Fournier shipped in.

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