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2013 NHL Entry Draft Talk 11.0

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06-14-2013, 02:58 PM
  #426
V-2 Schneider
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Originally Posted by yianik View Post
With the exception that I would say kids with ... more sandpaper and size.. because as you have it and that maybe what is you mean, that sounds like skating and skill are complete afterthoughts, otherwise I really agree with you here. Still require good skating or slap with a Do Not Draft, and want skill, but also put value for size and physical play.
All the picks have to be able to skate.That is a given.No heavy feet, or poor lateral turning.I want prospects who have the best chance to make the pros and if he only has ECHL skating, I'm not interested.The same goes for hockey sense, and a lack of it could show up in the more abstract areas like competitiveness or an inability to "put it all together". A kid who plateaus like Angelo Esposito is to be avoided, no matter how sweet the siren song of "all that potential".

A lack of skating and skill begets us another Turner Stevenson if we only cared about size.I want more than that.I'd like a Kirk Muller + Mike McPhee + Mike Keane.Or 3 more Prust's in the lineup.

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06-14-2013, 02:58 PM
  #427
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Originally Posted by Whitesnake View Post
Seems I'm the only Carrier fan around here....Big fan that is. Not 1st round, but DEFINITE 2nd round. And not 55 as he should be gone.
I'd select Carrier at #55. However, with Grant's report.. I scratched him off my list in pencil under the category of "Want but Habs won't select".

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How many times have you seen mantha play? Haha. Who would you like us to draft?
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I read the draf thread every day, so I can fill in for this one.

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06-14-2013, 02:58 PM
  #428
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Wow that would be awesome... Does London Knights ever produce bad players?
Sergei Kostitsyn?

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06-14-2013, 02:58 PM
  #429
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Originally Posted by Habs 4 Life View Post
The good news would be that at least they would be able to give the people details about the player instead of the usual " on le connait pas vraiment ce gars la "
True enough.

Talk about "des gars qu'on connaît pas", Leroux's son, Jasmin, provides game reports on Quebec's minor league baseball teams on 98.5 FM. I'm sure his appointment at the station was totally on merit.

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06-14-2013, 03:03 PM
  #430
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All the picks have to be able to skate.That is a given.No heavy feet, or poor lateral turning.I want prospects who have the best chance to make the pros and if he only has ECHL skating, I'm not interested.The same goes for hockey sense, and a lack of it could show up in the more abstract areas like competitiveness or an inability to "put it all together". A kid who plateaus like Angelo Esposito is to be avoided, no matter how sweet the siren song of "all that potential".

A lack of skating and skill begets us another Turner Stevenson if we only cared about size.I want more than that.I'd like a Kirk Muller + Mike McPhee + Mike Keane.Or 3 more Prust's in the lineup.
The more abstract aspects is where the finely-tuned eye of a competent scout comes in.

However, how could they ever know that an 18-year old kid has plateaud? You can establish parameters that could emit warning signs (some of which might come out during psychological testing or interviews) and even then, it's as inexact a science as you'll get. If a player has indeed plateaud, then it's the luck of the draw -- you attribute it to the normal failure rate that the process entails.

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06-14-2013, 03:05 PM
  #431
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I'm working on a little project of mine.. It is about statistics of taking overagers (sept-december birthdates) from 1999-2008. Ill probably post it on the main board

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06-14-2013, 03:11 PM
  #432
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Originally Posted by Runner77 View Post
The more abstract aspects is where the finely-tuned eye of a competent scout comes in.

However, how could they ever know that an 18-year old kid has plateaud? You can establish parameters that could emit warning signs (some of which might come out during psychological testing or interviews) and even then, it's as inexact a science as you'll get. If a player has indeed plateaud, then it's the luck of the draw -- you attribute it to the normal failure rate that the process entails.
I think you can spot it in an inability to compete every night and dominate, or to elevate his play.If the kid has high talent and no obvious flaws, beyond a lack of size, then an observer should wonder why he doesn't want to play all out every game? The sheer pleasure of dominating and winning should drive them forward, and yet, what holds them back? I think that missing ingredient is hockey sense.They can look marvelous at 17-18 and then when the pace picks up, they are half a step off the play.Or their brains just aren't quick enough.

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06-14-2013, 03:12 PM
  #433
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I'm working on a little project of mine.. It is about statistics of taking overagers (sept-december birthdates) from 1999-2008. Ill probably post it on the main board
If you post it on the main board, tell us here, I want to see this but I don't want to read the main board unless I have to.

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06-14-2013, 03:14 PM
  #434
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I'm working on a little project of mine.. It is about statistics of taking overagers (sept-december birthdates) from 1999-2008. Ill probably post it on the main board
Keep in mind that USA college kids were only draft eligible at age 19 before 2005 while doing your analysis.

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06-14-2013, 03:14 PM
  #435
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If you post it on the main board, tell us here, I want to see this but I don't want to read the main board unless I have to.
Okay lol ill post it on each.. Was going through 2002 ... Was the rules about overagers the same before 2003? The birthdates seems to be all over the place

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06-14-2013, 03:15 PM
  #436
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[QUOTE=Habs 4 Life;67487919]The RDS guys would be in heaven

Now can you imagine in 3-4-5 years down the road none of then pan out? Yikes[/Q


Marc Bergevin has stated on many occasions through various press conferences...if he had to choose between three players of equal ability...skill, footspeed, character and determination...one from the Q...an American...an European, he would choose the local French-Canadian player...as he should. Though I would want MB to confirm that the Q player would love to play for the Habs and wear the bleu/blanc/rouge jersey.


Last edited by phillytennis: 06-14-2013 at 03:25 PM. Reason: left idea out previous comment
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06-14-2013, 03:16 PM
  #437
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Originally Posted by Marc the Habs Fan View Post
Keep in mind that USA college kids were only draft eligible at age 19 before 2005 while doing your analysis.
Thanks for the tip... I didn't know that so it will definitely help my analysis.

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06-14-2013, 03:17 PM
  #438
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[QUOTE=phillytennis;67490507]
Quote:
Originally Posted by Habs 4 Life View Post
The RDS guys would be in heaven

Now can you imagine in 3-4-5 years down the road none of then pan out? Yikes[/Q


Marc Bergevin has stated on many occasions through various press conferences...if he had to choose between three players of equal ability...one from the Q...an American...an European, he would choose the local French-Canadian player...as he should. Though I would want MB to confirm that the Q player would love to play for the Habs and wear the bleu/blanc/rouge jersey.
No 2 players are ever equal though. I think they mean if it comes down to it and they have two skilled guys on the board with 50 point ceilings, they're gonna take the local guy. That being said, I'm sure that ranks behind things like work ethic, determination, character and footspeed for the club.

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06-14-2013, 03:23 PM
  #439
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[QUOTE=WeThreeKings;67490579]
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Originally Posted by phillytennis View Post

No 2 players are ever equal though. I think they mean if it comes down to it and they have two skilled guys on the board with 50 point ceilings, they're gonna take the local guy. That being said, I'm sure that ranks behind things like work ethic, determination, character and footspeed for the club.
Agreed...I should have stated...similar character, work ethic and footspeed.

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06-14-2013, 03:24 PM
  #440
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Originally Posted by V-2 Schneider View Post
I think you can spot it in an inability to compete every night and dominate, or to elevate his play.If the kid has high talent and no obvious flaws, beyond a lack of size, then an observer should wonder why he doesn't want to play all out every game? The sheer pleasure of dominating and winning should drive them forward, and yet, what holds them back? I think that missing ingredient is hockey sense.They can look marvelous at 17-18 and then when the pace picks up, they are half a step off the play.Or their brains just aren't quick enough.
Well, if that's discernable, all good. However, how did the player make to the team he's on, if he didn't have what it takes? Maybe some other factors can come into play that look like a plateau but are attributable to a new and/or undisclosed family or personal situation, depression, hidden injury, undiagnosed or misdiagnosed medical condition, etc. If these guys are dismissed for the wrong reasons, they become draft day bargains. Just saying, it's not as straightforward a process all the time.

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06-14-2013, 03:25 PM
  #441
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Saw him only 2 times. Pretty good, but really raw, future 2-way d-man. Still believe his defensive upside will be greater than his offensive one, yet, should be able to make a great first pass out of the zone. Just not totally out of any offensive skills. REALLY interesting prospect. I think Michigan will see out of him a better Greg Pateryn. Honestly, he might not be THAT far off from McCoshen we hear a lot in the 1st round. Tons of potential. Kid is physical.

Downing could also be what we the Habs and us should have in mind...ESPECIALLY if he's still there at 55. But if I'm a team....I pick him up earlier than that. Could be a surprising 1st rounder riser? Probably not....but if he's there at 55..he HAS to be strongly considered. From some reports, he seems to be on his way up, and seems to have progressed immensely as the season progressed.
Thanks, I've heard good things throughout the year and was curious.

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06-14-2013, 03:27 PM
  #442
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Originally Posted by V-2 Schneider View Post
All the picks have to be able to skate.That is a given.No heavy feet, or poor lateral turning.I want prospects who have the best chance to make the pros and if he only has ECHL skating, I'm not interested.The same goes for hockey sense, and a lack of it could show up in the more abstract areas like competitiveness or an inability to "put it all together". A kid who plateaus like Angelo Esposito is to be avoided, no matter how sweet the siren song of "all that potential".

A lack of skating and skill begets us another Turner Stevenson if we only cared about size.I want more than that.I'd like a Kirk Muller + Mike McPhee + Mike Keane.Or 3 more Prust's in the lineup.
LOL. I suppose you also want Corson , Nilan and Skrudland.

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06-14-2013, 03:28 PM
  #443
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Originally Posted by phillytennis View Post
Marc Bergevin has stated on many occasions through various press conferences...if he had to choose between three players of equal ability...skill, footspeed, character and determination...one from the Q...an American...an European, he would choose the local French-Canadian player...as he should.
So if a player isn't French-Canadian, he can't be local?

Has Stéphane Leroux hacked your account?


Last edited by Runner77: 06-14-2013 at 03:33 PM.
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06-14-2013, 03:35 PM
  #444
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Okay lol ill post it on each.. Was going through 2002 ... Was the rules about overagers the same before 2003? The birthdates seems to be all over the place
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Thanks for the tip... I didn't know that so it will definitely help my analysis.
That's exactly why I brought it up, eligibility rules were different. Pretty sure it changed for the 2005 draft with the new CBA but not 100% sure.

Like you saw while looking at 2002, Ryan Whitney, Eric Nystrom, Chris Higgins, Keith Ballard, etc all drafted at age 19 out of US College hockey while the CHL kids were 18.

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06-14-2013, 03:35 PM
  #445
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I'm pretty sure by French-Canadian, he means Quebecois, as in someone from Quebec, not what language he speaks primarily at home or what his last name is. Tread carefully with this discussion.

While it's rare that it would be that close, when prospects are on the same level, the order of tiebreakers should go like this IMO:

1. Need (This team needs LWs and stay at home defensemen more than it needs PMDs)

2. Toughness

3. Size

4. Local factor (Quebec of course, but even more so from Montreal and the surrounding suburbs is a bigger deal for me)

5. There ability to speak French and "character" bonus (they overcame a difficult childhood, once saved orphans from a burning building, etc)

6. Other

Having local players is a good thing, so yes, it's worth consideration. I think we will almost certainly get a few Quebecois players out of this draft, but it's not a factor in every pick.

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06-14-2013, 03:37 PM
  #446
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So if a player isn't French-Canadian, he can't be local?

Has Stéphane Leroux hijacked your account?
No problem...he could be English(west Island...ie. Louis Leblanc) or French. Though appr. 85% of Quebecers speak French.
You seem like a Stéphane Leroux hater.

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06-14-2013, 03:39 PM
  #447
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So if a player isn't French-Canadian, he can't be local?

Has Stéphane Leroux hacked your account?
totally agree, he can be from Quebec and be English, also there are other Canadian born players who would kill to play for the habs

if the player is equal in all those 3 catgories, i would say pick the Canadian player first, American 2nd.

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06-14-2013, 03:40 PM
  #448
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I'm pretty sure by French-Canadian, he means Quebecois, as in someone from Quebec, not what language he speaks primarily at home or what his last name is. Tread carefully with this discussion.
And we should tread carefully. Anyone born in Quebec is a "local" as far as I'm concerned. There is a world of a difference between a "French Canadian" and a "Quebecquer".

Bergevin should favor a Quebecquer (someone born in Quebec) where talent is similar or within the same value tier.

Race or ethnic origin should have nothing to do with the process.

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06-14-2013, 03:44 PM
  #449
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Seems I'm the only Carrier fan around here....Big fan that is. Not 1st round, but DEFINITE 2nd round. And not 55 as he should be gone.
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He's one of the most skilled and gifted guy in the Q this season, he's a tank also.
I heard he could go around you or through you and he had a nice skill set. Seems to be someone we could use for sure.

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06-14-2013, 03:44 PM
  #450
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No problem...he could be English(west Island...ie. Louis Leblanc) or French. Though appr. 85% of Quebecers speak French.
You seem like a Stéphane Leroux hater.
I just think that if someone is priviledged enough to be on on the air, it's unbecoming of them to use race and ethnic origin to draw up draft lists. That doesn't make me a "hater" -- just like things to be put in a perspective that is more objective.

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