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Couturier's Trade Value

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Old
06-09-2013, 11:31 PM
  #1
Jet Set
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Couturier's Trade Value

So why is his trade value so insanely high on this site? Seriously, some of the trades that I've seen Flyers fan turn down in order to keep him are laughable. I've seen trades that demand a number one d-man for him.

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06-09-2013, 11:33 PM
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Why do you care?

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06-09-2013, 11:34 PM
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It is the HFboards way. Inexplicably, the less experienced the player, the more they are worth. All that 'potential'!

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06-09-2013, 11:36 PM
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Because he is 20 years old and elite defensively. He also has offensive potential, but he hasn't been put in any situations to produce offensively. He is simply asked to be a shutdown third line center so far in his career.

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06-09-2013, 11:37 PM
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06-09-2013, 11:40 PM
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06-09-2013, 11:41 PM
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I'd offer Gryba a big right shot right side defenseman plus a good prospect(like one of our first round prospects).

Flyers would think its crap but that's decent...... I think xD.

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06-09-2013, 11:50 PM
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Because he is 20 years old and elite defensively. He also has offensive potential, but he hasn't been put in any situations to produce offensively. He is simply asked to be a shutdown third line center so far in his career.
The problem is that having offensive potential isn't the same as being able to get it done offensively. I think some people overvalue Couturier based on their own expectations, and not necessarily because of what he's accomplished on the ice. That's to be expected, with such a young player, but there seem to be some excuses being made as to why he hasn't broken out offensively.

Don't get me wrong, I think Couturier is a talented kid, and I think he has good value. I do think, though, that his value is being exaggerated by some who are projecting potential into some kind of guaranteed future.

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06-09-2013, 11:54 PM
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Originally Posted by Jet Set View Post
So why is his trade value so insanely high on this site? Seriously, some of the trades that I've seen Flyers fan turn down in order to keep him are laughable. I've seen trades that demand a number one d-man for him.
Let's not pretend that a few people who expect the world for him speak for the entire fanbase. While we're not pretending, we should probably also realize that every team in the league has fans who are a bit, well, overly enthusiastic about the value of their players.

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06-09-2013, 11:59 PM
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Originally Posted by Sojourn View Post
Let's not pretend that a few people who expect the world for him speak for the entire fanbase. While we're not pretending, we should probably also realize that every team in the league has fans who are a bit, well, overly enthusiastic about the value of their players.
Very well said.

In response to OP's remark regarding we demanding a #1 D man for couts:
While he is obviously not worth a #1 D man, we have no need for anything less then that. So unless the deal is Coots or Coots+ for a potential #1/actual #1, there is no deal to be made from our POV.

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06-10-2013, 12:00 AM
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96 points as a 17 and 18 year-old in juniors and 28 points in 31 AHL games as a 19 year-old. He has pretty good offensive potential. He already has 123 NHL games as a 20 year-old. Of course his value will be very high.

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06-10-2013, 12:09 AM
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i like the cut of his jib

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06-10-2013, 12:14 AM
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Fair points, and I obviously overexaggerated the whole fan base part. But wanting bigger pieces than Couturier himself based on his offensive potential is a tricky deal.

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06-10-2013, 12:20 AM
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I will compare him to brandon sutter for the best recently traded comparable player out there. Same relative draft position, early career production, plays a shut down role but has offensive potential. It isn't perfect, but its close.
Sutter was PART of the package, in which Carolina had all the leverage IMO, to get a second line Center who was approaching free agency.
I just don't think couturier has near the value, trade wise, HF posters bestow upon him.

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06-10-2013, 12:22 AM
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Originally Posted by BK201 View Post
I'd offer Gryba a big right shot right side defenseman plus a good prospect(like one of our first round prospects).

Flyers would think its crap but that's decent...... I think xD.
Not a Flyers fan.... That's not a decent offer. Terrible offer.


Couturier has a lot of value because he was drafted 8th overall, has already shown in the NHL to have Elite Defense as a 19 and 20 year old player, still has untapped offensive potential, and is expected to be a #1C or very good #2.

Those players don't grow on trees.


He might not be worth a #1 Dman by himself, but a young potential #1 is more then fair.

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06-10-2013, 12:24 AM
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I won't pretend to know everything about Couturier, because I don't, but I find him to be just a tad overrated. Just like Leafs fans here in Toronto are praising Jake Gardiner.

While I think Couturier is a great player, he has not impressed me with his time on the Flyers. Sure maybe he's not given the chance to shine but I just haven't seen anything of him that would hint a potential #1 centre. However I do think this past season made everyone on that team look below average. I'm just wondering why Laviolette has him playing 4th line when he's supposed to be grade A trade bait?

Sure he's still young but if I'm the Leafs I'm mighty hesitant to trade Gardiner for Couturier. Hopefully I'm wrong about young Sean. I hope he becomes a great player.

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06-10-2013, 12:26 AM
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Hopefully he's worth as much as Hanzal...

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06-10-2013, 12:37 AM
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Fair points, and I obviously overexaggerated the whole fan base part. But wanting bigger pieces than Couturier himself based on his offensive potential is a tricky deal.
It is a "tricky deal". However, Stamkos and Tavares didn't look so hot as 20-year olds either and they weren't stuck on their teams 3rd line. when given the chance on the PP and the games where he slide up as the #1 center when Giroux was out he didn't look out of place. He handled himself quite well. If given the chance (and I don't see it happening in Philly) there is no doubt in my mind that based from what I've seen of him he'll be a very good #2c with excellent two-way ability. I think that if you put him on the 2nd line that 50-60 points a season average is pretty realistic. While that may not be real exciting, it's pretty good production from your #2 center PLUS you get great defensive zone play too.


This is where I put Coots value. Lets say the Wings could aquire any pick in the top 10 this year and Coots. All teams holding those picks and the Flyers were willing to move them for the exact same package (ie - all players have the same trade cost so you get your pick). I think the Wings would take the #1 oa first, #2 oa second, #3 oa third, and Coots forth or fifth. Setting aside "team needs" I think most teams would feel the same. That means I think his value is about the 4th or 5th OA this draft.

If a true top level #1 dman were available were available I would think that Coots + our 1st would be a good starting point and a little (but not nearly as much as some may think) would have to be added. Someone like Doughty or Pietrangelo aren't available so it's just stupid to discuss them but like when Pronger WAS available, the price wasn't nearly as high as some people seem to think THEIR guys are worth. The dman has to actually be available for you to aquire him but if he is (say Doughty was) he certainly wouldn't yield anything like Coots + both Schenns + Voracek.

A dman like Doughty or Pietrangelo (again, if available) would return more than either Carter or Richards did but not a ton more like some may think. I would argue that Richards and Carter were worth more than guys like Yandle, Big Buff and Edler so to me a package of Coots (call equal to Voracek at the time of his trade) + our 1st (11th OA) would be an over payment.

This at least is how I see things.

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06-10-2013, 12:38 AM
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Originally Posted by ReimerIsFuture View Post
I won't pretend to know everything about Couturier, because I don't, but I find him to be just a tad overrated. Just like Leafs fans here in Toronto are praising Jake Gardiner.
While I think Couturier is a great player, he has not impressed me with his time on the Flyers. Sure maybe he's not given the chance to shine but I just haven't seen anything of him that would hint a potential #1 centre. However I do think this past season made everyone on that team look below average. I'm just wondering why Laviolette has him playing 4th line when he's supposed to be grade A trade bait?

Sure he's still young but if I'm the Leafs I'm mighty hesitant to trade Gardiner for Couturier. Hopefully I'm wrong about young Sean. I hope he becomes a great player.


That's too funny.


Couturier at this point has more potential then Gardiner, and more likely to reach it.


Gardiner for Couturier might be half decent value wise, but the Flyers would be picking up the riskier player in the deal.


Easily.

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06-10-2013, 12:42 AM
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Originally Posted by phlocky View Post
It is a "tricky deal". However, Stamkos and Tavares didn't look so hot as 20-year olds either and they weren't stuck on their teams 3rd line. when given the chance on the PP and the games where he slide up as the #1 center when Giroux was out he didn't look out of place. He handled himself quite well. If given the chance (and I don't see it happening in Philly) there is no doubt in my mind that based from what I've seen of him he'll be a very good #2c with excellent two-way ability. I think that if you put him on the 2nd line that 50-60 points a season average is pretty realistic. While that may not be real exciting, it's pretty good production from your #2 center PLUS you get great defensive zone play too.


This is where I put Coots value. Lets say the Wings could aquire any pick in the top 10 this year and Coots. All teams holding those picks and the Flyers were willing to move them for the exact same package (ie - all players have the same trade cost so you get your pick). I think the Wings would take the #1 oa first, #2 oa second, #3 oa third, and Coots forth or fifth. Setting aside "team needs" I think most teams would feel the same. That means I think his value is about the 4th or 5th OA this draft.

If a true top level #1 dman were available were available I would think that Coots + our 1st would be a good starting point and a little (but not nearly as much as some may think) would have to be added. Someone like Doughty or Pietrangelo aren't available so it's just stupid to discuss them but like when Pronger WAS available, the price wasn't nearly as high as some people seem to think THEIR guys are worth. The dman has to actually be available for you to aquire him but if he is (say Doughty was) he certainly wouldn't yield anything like Coots + both Schenns + Voracek.

A dman like Doughty or Pietrangelo (again, if available) would return more than either Carter or Richards did but not a ton more like some may think. I would argue that Richards and Carter were worth more than guys like Yandle, Big Buff and Edler so to me a package of Coots (call equal to Voracek at the time of his trade) + our 1st (11th OA) would be an over payment.

This at least is how I see things.


Barkov is basically a better version of Couturier. He'll be just as good if not better Defensively, and offensively it likely wont be close.


Nichushkin likely winds up a better overall player then Couts to.


Most people compare Monahan and Couturier as being very similar players. Monahan is likely a 6-8 overall pick in this draft. That would likely be the line in which a team chooses Couturier over the pick as well.

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06-10-2013, 01:29 AM
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That's too funny.


Couturier at this point has more potential then Gardiner, and more likely to reach it.


Gardiner for Couturier might be half decent value wise, but the Flyers would be picking up the riskier player in the deal.


Easily.
Based on... what? Gardiner has top pairing potential, and maybe even beyond that. I'd probably go with top pairing potential, based on his offensive ability, and I think that he won't be good enough all-around to be a legit #1 guy. That's still an extremely valuable player.

In my opinion, and keep in mind this is as a fan of neither team, I see Gardiner as the higher potential player, with about the same amount of risk. What suggests Couturier has more potential, and that he is more likely to reach it? Beyond the fact Couturier wears a Flyers jersey, I mean. All I know is that, in a vacuum, if I had to choose between one or the other, I'd take Gardiner. Given my team's needs, I'd take Couturier, but that really isn't the point. If team needs weren't an issue, I'd rather have Gardiner.

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06-10-2013, 02:03 AM
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Based on... what? Gardiner has top pairing potential, and maybe even beyond that. I'd probably go with top pairing potential, based on his offensive ability, and I think that he won't be good enough all-around to be a legit #1 guy. That's still an extremely valuable player.

In my opinion, and keep in mind this is as a fan of neither team, I see Gardiner as the higher potential player, with about the same amount of risk. What suggests Couturier has more potential, and that he is more likely to reach it? Beyond the fact Couturier wears a Flyers jersey, I mean. All I know is that, in a vacuum, if I had to choose between one or the other, I'd take Gardiner. Given my team's needs, I'd take Couturier, but that really isn't the point. If team needs weren't an issue, I'd rather have Gardiner.
Bingo!!!

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06-10-2013, 02:08 AM
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It is a "tricky deal". However, Stamkos and Tavares didn't look so hot as 20-year olds either and they weren't stuck on their teams 3rd line. when given the chance on the PP and the games where he slide up as the #1 center when Giroux was out he didn't look out of place. He handled himself quite well. If given the chance (and I don't see it happening in Philly) there is no doubt in my mind that based from what I've seen of him he'll be a very good #2c with excellent two-way ability. I think that if you put him on the 2nd line that 50-60 points a season average is pretty realistic. While that may not be real exciting, it's pretty good production from your #2 center PLUS you get great defensive zone play too.


This is where I put Coots value. Lets say the Wings could aquire any pick in the top 10 this year and Coots. All teams holding those picks and the Flyers were willing to move them for the exact same package (ie - all players have the same trade cost so you get your pick). I think the Wings would take the #1 oa first, #2 oa second, #3 oa third, and Coots forth or fifth. Setting aside "team needs" I think most teams would feel the same. That means I think his value is about the 4th or 5th OA this draft.

If a true top level #1 dman were available were available I would think that Coots + our 1st would be a good starting point and a little (but not nearly as much as some may think) would have to be added. Someone like Doughty or Pietrangelo aren't available so it's just stupid to discuss them but like when Pronger WAS available, the price wasn't nearly as high as some people seem to think THEIR guys are worth. The dman has to actually be available for you to aquire him but if he is (say Doughty was) he certainly wouldn't yield anything like Coots + both Schenns + Voracek.

A dman like Doughty or Pietrangelo (again, if available) would return more than either Carter or Richards did but not a ton more like some may think. I would argue that Richards and Carter were worth more than guys like Yandle, Big Buff and Edler so to me a package of Coots (call equal to Voracek at the time of his trade) + our 1st (11th OA) would be an over payment.

This at least is how I see things.
Stamkos in his age 20 season had 95 points and 51 goals. Taveras had 67 points as a 20 year old.

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06-10-2013, 02:22 AM
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Based on... what? Gardiner has top pairing potential, and maybe even beyond that. I'd probably go with top pairing potential, based on his offensive ability, and I think that he won't be good enough all-around to be a legit #1 guy. That's still an extremely valuable player.

In my opinion, and keep in mind this is as a fan of neither team, I see Gardiner as the higher potential player, with about the same amount of risk. What suggests Couturier has more potential, and that he is more likely to reach it? Beyond the fact Couturier wears a Flyers jersey, I mean. All I know is that, in a vacuum, if I had to choose between one or the other, I'd take Gardiner. Given my team's needs, I'd take Couturier, but that really isn't the point. If team needs weren't an issue, I'd rather have Gardiner.
Excellent assessment.

Oddly, despite how frequently both fanbases bicker about these two. They do make a good swap; Flyers needing defense, Leafs a centre. And for a little irony. Both fanbases behaved the exact way toward JVR and Schenn. If Leaf scouts do visit HF, who knows.

Personally, I see Couturier in the Jordan Staal mold; defensively responsible and an excellent two-way game, but less offensively oriented. Gardiner I am not quite certain yet. His style reminds me of a few players but I haven't seen enough to narrow on in particular.

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06-10-2013, 02:26 AM
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It is the HFboards way. Inexplicably, the less experienced the player, the more they are worth. All that 'potential'!
Don't forget that people think they can get other teams star players for a bunch of secondary players on your roster, b level prospects and a 2nd rounder so why trade one of your better players in terms of trade value

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