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What did Chicago do to get back to the SCF that the Penguins didn't?

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06-14-2013, 11:01 AM
  #1
plaidchuck
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What did Chicago do to get back to the SCF that the Penguins didn't?

So looking back the Pens and Hawks had a similar trajectory after their cup wins, they lost some players that contributed to their runs, lost early in a few playoff runs yet one has returned back to the SCF and one just missed it. I was wondering what everything thinks made the difference for the Hawks while the Pens continue to search for answers. Looking for real in depth reasons, not simply "It's Fleury's/Bylsma's/Sheros fault" since we have plenty of other threads for that, although looking at the philosophy for each organization wouldn't hurt. We all know injuries pretty much doomed the 2011 run so no real need to bring that one up.

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06-14-2013, 11:14 AM
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KIRK
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Quote:
Originally Posted by plaidchuck View Post
So looking back the Pens and Hawks had a similar trajectory after their cup wins, they lost some players that contributed to their runs, lost early in a few playoff runs yet one has returned back to the SCF and one just missed it. I was wondering what everything thinks made the difference for the Hawks while the Pens continue to search for answers. Looking for real in depth reasons, not simply "It's Fleury's/Bylsma's/Sheros fault" since we have plenty of other threads for that, although looking at the philosophy for each organization wouldn't hurt. We all know injuries pretty much doomed the 2011 run so no real need to bring that one up.
Start with relied on young players to help fill out the team instead of desperately trying to win the cup in February.

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06-14-2013, 11:20 AM
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IcedCapp
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scored goals

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06-14-2013, 11:21 AM
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scored goals
Scored goals throughout their lineup, played all four lines, got coached... practiced.

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06-14-2013, 11:24 AM
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Did more than Hangman in practice I'd guess

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06-14-2013, 11:28 AM
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KIRK
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scored goals
Have more than two forwards capable of making a one on one play.

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06-14-2013, 11:28 AM
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Did more than Hangman in practice I'd guess
Better burritos?

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06-14-2013, 11:28 AM
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There are a bunch of things and at the same time the Hawks are doing some things just like the Pens... they just do it better.

The Hawks stretch pass to players with speed and then support that speed so that player has options. The Pens would stretch pass to some slower players and give him no support. So that player that gets the stretch pass gets eaten alive by any player gapping well.

The Hawks turned that Bruins D around by making smart dumps, getting the puck and then using the endboards to make plays. The Pens were just sucked into the Bruins collapse, skated right into them or skated up to them and put a lame shot on Rask. No poise, no set up...

Bumping Rask every now and then. The Hawks go to the net hard and seem to be getting under his skin. The Pens rushed their shots so net front never became an issue.

The Hawks match up... the Pens don't.

The Hawks can cover Toews and Kane when they don't score. The Pens don't cover Malkin and Sid.

The Hawks best player is finding a way to play well even though he might not have had a great game. Sid played some of the worst hockey I've ever seen him play.

The Hawks are a lot cleaner coming out of their own zone. The Pens made mistake and giveaways that peewee's would laugh at.

Even when the Hawks did make mistakes their structure can take over and keep things safe. Make a mistake... its addressed and adjusted to with structural issues so it doesn't happen again. With the Pens it seems like a mistake is dealt with by telling the player he has to do better next time. No adjustments, no change in plans.

The Hawks know when to reverse the puck. The Pens will force the puck up the wall even if Godzilla is taking a lane away.

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06-14-2013, 11:30 AM
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Le Magnifique 66
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It's the depth IMO for me, The Hawks are deep and all 4 lines can hurt you. When Toews and Kane are quiet they have players who can step it up on the bottom 6 on a regular basis

We need a bit more depth up front and younger legs on our bottom 6

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06-14-2013, 11:33 AM
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IcedCapp
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This is just going to turn into another coaching gripe fest.

The Penguins had more depth than any team in the league - on paper. They destroyed that depth by deploying, IMO, inefficient lines. I understand a lot of people will say "LINES DON'T MAKE THAT MUCH DIFFERENCE", but if you have the option to spread your speed, physicality, and skill out through 4 lines, and instead, you choose to put a hodgepodge together, it makes a big difference. Especially against a team like Boston.

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06-14-2013, 11:33 AM
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BlindWillyMcHurt
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It's not hard. Like the Penguins, they have a roster deep with talent.

Unlike the Penguins, they are prepared to play against Stanley Cup contending teams.

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Originally Posted by IcedCapp View Post
This is just going to turn into another coaching gripe fest.
Yup.

Quote:
The Penguins had more depth than any team in the league - on paper. They destroyed that depth by deploying, IMO, inefficient lines. I understand a lot of people will say "LINES DON'T MAKE THAT MUCH DIFFERENCE", but if you have the option to spread your speed, physicality, and skill out through 4 lines, and instead, you choose to put a hodgepodge together, it makes a big difference. Especially against a team like Boston.
It never ceases to amaze me how little stock people (the higher ups on this team, in particular) seem to put into well-thought-out line combinations. And line chemistry. I don't care if you put three all-stars on the same line... sometimes they just won't produce because they don't compliment each other and never, ever will.

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06-14-2013, 11:35 AM
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Got multiple bodies to the net and scored the dirty goals instead of trying to out talent the opposition by making the pretty play.

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06-14-2013, 11:37 AM
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Originally Posted by IcedCapp View Post
This is just going to turn into another coaching gripe fest.
Yeah I agree and I wasn't even looking for examples of how they played the Bruins differently than the Pens but more specifically what have the Hawks done as an organization between the two cup runs. I'd say having your two top players at a lower cap hit goes a long way for the team to be deeper across four lines.

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06-14-2013, 11:39 AM
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BlindWillyMcHurt
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Originally Posted by Ogelthorpe View Post
Got multiple bodies to the net and scored the dirty goals instead of trying to out talent the opposition by making the pretty play.
I'm not picking on you, here but I hear that a whole bunch.

"Why didn't we get bodies to the net?!?" "We needed to crash the crease, more!" "Y U NO GO TO THE NET, PENS?!?"

When your entire offense seems to be based around one-and-done rushes... there is no time to establish a net front presence. Unless you want to basically tie up a forward on the inevitable scrambling backcheck.

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06-14-2013, 11:41 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by plaidchuck View Post
Yeah I agree and I wasn't even looking for examples of how they played the Bruins differently than the Pens but more specifically what have the Hawks done as an organization between the two cup runs. I'd say having your two top players at a lower cap hit goes a long way for the team to be deeper across four lines.
Good on them for taking advantage of it, while they can.

It sure won't be that way for too much longer, I would have to imagine.

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06-14-2013, 11:50 AM
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IcedCapp
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if we're talking about philosophically, what did Chicago do over the past 3 years that Pittsburgh didn't?

Bennett and Despres would have been relied upon, not hidden, in Chicago.

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06-14-2013, 11:51 AM
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Originally Posted by BlindWillyMcHurt View Post
I'm not picking on you, here but I hear that a whole bunch.

"Why didn't we get bodies to the net?!?" "We needed to crash the crease, more!" "Y U NO GO TO THE NET, PENS?!?"

When your entire offense seems to be based around one-and-done rushes... there is no time to establish a net front presence. Unless you want to basically tie up a forward on the inevitable scrambling backcheck.
I really wish you would post more.

Those one and done rushes are so mind numbing. Not just in this series but ever since Disco took over. Its like they think that more shots equals more goals. The only set up I can remember against the B's was the same old Neal play off the face off. I was actually happy they tried it with Iggy in game 4 but why did it take so long.

Did anyone else hear Don Cherry rant about iggy? I hate agreeing with him but he's totally right and just saying everything we've been saying since he got here.

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06-14-2013, 11:52 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by plaidchuck View Post
So looking back the Pens and Hawks had a similar trajectory after their cup wins, they lost some players that contributed to their runs, lost early in a few playoff runs yet one has returned back to the SCF and one just missed it. I was wondering what everything thinks made the difference for the Hawks while the Pens continue to search for answers. Looking for real in depth reasons, not simply "It's Fleury's/Bylsma's/Sheros fault" since we have plenty of other threads for that, although looking at the philosophy for each organization wouldn't hurt. We all know injuries pretty much doomed the 2011 run so no real need to bring that one up.
Alas...you know it's going to come down to bashing Bylsma.

You want other answers?

So our D....
Remember post cup, we lost Gill/Scuderi. Our D became "playoff" weaker which was contrary to what Shero expected. We replaced them with Michalek and Martin. They both sucked for 2 years, so basically our D still sucked for 2 years. We still have this problem...we don't have a "playoff strong D pairing" (aka the clutch and grab duo).

"Letang and ?"....
We still don't have a pairing like Keith & Seabrook. It could be blamed on Shero. It could be blamed on the Coach. You decide.
*edit* and of course we can blame Letang. */edit*

So our F...
Chicago has Toews, Kane, Hossa, and Sharp as their top 4.
Before Neal...we had Crosby, Malkin, Kunitz, Dupuis.
Which group do you think is more balanced? You can clearly see when things go wrong, all 4 of the Chicago players can hold their own. On our side..it's "give it to Crosby or Malkin". Our team is easier to defend against because of this.

Our G...
Crawford is leaps and bounds above MAF.
Crawford is probably better than Vokoun...or at least in that Boston Game-1 OT it seemed to be so.

Team depth...
Pretty similar.

Other differences?
Chicago doesn't spazz out (as much) as we do when we are losing.
Quenneville actually adjust things on the fly.

So I think there are a few areas of improvement. Right now the weakest link seems to be DB & MAF. For MAF we have Vokoun (thank God). For DB (and the rest of his staff)....we have no answer .


Last edited by Sidgeni Malkby: 06-14-2013 at 12:01 PM.
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06-14-2013, 11:54 AM
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Luigi Lemieux
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Their defense is significantly better. That's the biggest difference imo. They don't get pinned in their own end, are better defensively, are better passers, and have higher hockey iq. Their big minute eaters are superior in almost every area.

Keith, Seabrook, Hjamarsson >>> Letang, Martin, Orpik

I know offense is the reason why the pens lost, but i still think it stems from defense. Pens defense is not good enough.

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06-14-2013, 11:55 AM
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No puck support for creative goals. Nobody to the net for dirty goals.

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06-14-2013, 11:56 AM
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IcedCapp
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ogrezilla View Post
offense lost us the boston series, not defense.
yes and no.

Defensively the D didn't lose the Boston series, but when a team is playing the kind of D Boston was, you're going to need some offensive contributions from your back end, and they were unable to provide any.

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06-14-2013, 11:57 AM
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Originally Posted by IcedCapp View Post
yes and no.

Defensively the D didn't lose the Boston series, but when a team is playing the kind of D Boston was, you're going to need some offensive contributions from your back end, and they were unable to provide any.
half of our goals in that series were created by paul martin.

nobody created offense. its on everyone, not just the D.

edit: I was wrong. Paul Martin assisted on both of our goals in the series. But he only did the lion's share of the work on the Kunitz goal.

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06-14-2013, 11:59 AM
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Originally Posted by Ogrezilla View Post
half of our goals in that series were created by paul martin.

nobody created offense. its on everyone, not just the D.
.......

I know! lol, i'm not placing it at the feet of the D. I'm just saying it's on everyone.

There was no support for Crosby and Malkin. There was no one going to the net. There was no one on D coming up and making a play. They weren't doing anything you have to do to beat a team as committed to protecting the net (and suffocating Crosby and Malkin) as Boston is/was.

It was basically the Montreal series all over again, imo, only Pens got better play from their net.

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06-14-2013, 12:00 PM
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Originally Posted by IcedCapp View Post
.......

I know! lol, i'm not placing it at the feet of the D. I'm just saying it's on everyone.

There was no support for Crosby and Malkin. There was no one going to the net. There was no one on D coming up and making a play. They weren't doing anything you have to do to beat a team as committed to protecting the net (and suffocating Crosby and Malkin) as Boston is/was.

It was basically the Montreal series all over again, imo, only Pens got better play from their net.
I just don't think our d-men were the biggest issue. I think our wingers were the biggest culprits.

Still, its on everyone. Vokoun is the only guy who should have his head up after that series.

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06-14-2013, 12:01 PM
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BlindWillyMcHurt
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Originally Posted by #66 View Post
I really wish you would post more.

Those one and done rushes are so mind numbing. Not just in this series but ever since Disco took over. Its like they think that more shots equals more goals. The only set up I can remember against the B's was the same old Neal play off the face off. I was actually happy they tried it with Iggy in game 4 but why did it take so long.

Did anyone else hear Don Cherry rant about iggy? I hate agreeing with him but he's totally right and just saying everything we've been saying since he got here.
Well, under Disco a few seasons ago when the team was mostly without Crosby and Malkin (failure to close TB out year), the team actually seemed very good at establishing a cycle on all four lines. Sometimes to the point of parody... because they would endlessly cycle the puck but never seem to figure out how to actually turn it into a good scoring chance. Of course... that team was playing without a large chunk of talent that they have now.

I don't understand why they got away from that offensive zone possession game. On a relatively-devoid-of-talent team, it was often maddening to watch. On a team like we just saw bow out in four against Boston that had (on paper) plenty of skill and grit, it would have been much more welcome than the long-bomb/shoot-off-the-rush approach. Obviously I give plenty of credit to Boston for disrupting any work the Penguins were trying to get done down low and along the boards. But I also simply didn't see enough emphasis on attempting to take what was available and just get the puck deep and start looking to engage in those same areas. And when they did... our guys seemed to routinely lose those battles.

So, again... I would have loved to see them establish a net front presence, too. But they weren't really playing the kind of hockey that enables that strategy to be effective.

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