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What did Chicago do to get back to the SCF that the Penguins didn't?

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Old
06-14-2013, 01:32 PM
  #51
Ogelthorpe
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BlindWillyMcHurt View Post
I'm not picking on you, here but I hear that a whole bunch.

"Why didn't we get bodies to the net?!?" "We needed to crash the crease, more!" "Y U NO GO TO THE NET, PENS?!?"

When your entire offense seems to be based around one-and-done rushes... there is no time to establish a net front presence. Unless you want to basically tie up a forward on the inevitable scrambling backcheck.
I agree to a point, but there were plenty of times that we had possession and worked the puck to the D, but didn't get in front of the net. We usually had a forward stay on the strong side wall waiting for a return pass, a forward high in the slot, and a forward off to the side of the net. We need the wall guy and the net side guy to get in front. A perfect example is the Hawks OT goal....the wall guy and support guy both go to the net after getting the puck to the D on a turnover, and all Rozy did was throw a weak shot to the net.......dirty lucky goal that wasn't created off of 40 seconds of zone time.

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06-14-2013, 01:33 PM
  #52
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Originally Posted by plaidchuck View Post
So why are people pining for Scuderi and Gill again?
Gill no way.

Scuds is interesting because the guy is just damn solid.

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06-14-2013, 02:01 PM
  #53
NeedleInTheHay
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Originally Posted by Shady Machine View Post
#66, IcedCapp, and Willy summed up my thoughts quite well. I think a big thing is Chicago relying on their youth more. To be fair, they had better forward prospects than we did, but they actually let those players take on key roles. Saad, for example, would be buried on the 4th line or not in the lineup in Pittsburgh. They didn't need to trade for the Morrow's of the world, because they saw what they had in Saad and Shaw and let them play.

Also, let's be real, their defense is better than ours. They are more mobile and better defensively. As I mentioned yesterday in another thread:

Keith > Letang
Seabrook > Orpik
Leddy < Martin (different players but I'll give Martin the edge just to be fair to the Pens)
Hjalmarsson > Nisky
Rozsival > Eaton, Engel
Oduya = Murray (not remotely similar players but play on 3rd pairing. Being generous to Murray just to be fair)

So anyway, it's pretty clear to me that they are more mobile, better defensively, and just superior defense. Their top 6 is arguably more dangerous as ours, despite Crosby, Malkin > Toews, Kane. Hossa and Sharp are better than Neal, Kunitz and any other combination of Saad, Bickell, Handzus is superior at this point to Duper, Iggy. Their bottom 6 has speed, skill, and tenacity.

With no disrespect to the Pens, I just think they are a superior hockey team in every way outside of paper.
Really? let's not get carried away here.

For instance Handzus skates in sand and has 9 goals total in the past 2 seasons. How is he better than Dupuis or Iggy?

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06-14-2013, 02:18 PM
  #54
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Originally Posted by NeedleInTheHay View Post
Really? let's not get carried away here.

For instance Handzus skates in sand and has 9 goals total in the past 2 seasons. How is he better than Dupuis or Iggy?
So, remove Handzus from the equation, and he's still right.

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06-14-2013, 02:34 PM
  #55
NeedleInTheHay
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Originally Posted by MtlPenFan View Post
So, remove Handzus from the equation, and he's still right.
Bickell is not better than Dupuis or Iggy either, sorry.

After the sweep here, it's like every Pens player except for Malkin and Crosby all of a sudden sucks.

And also Neal and Sharp are very close in talent

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06-14-2013, 03:07 PM
  #56
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Originally Posted by NeedleInTheHay View Post
Really? let's not get carried away here.

For instance Handzus skates in sand and has 9 goals total in the past 2 seasons. How is he better than Dupuis or Iggy?
I actually shouldn't have included Handzus because I knew someone would say this. My point was they have many top 6 options that make their top 6 at least equal if not superior.

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06-14-2013, 03:08 PM
  #57
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Played in the West for one.

Not saying we would have won the west but you can't compare because of that.

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06-14-2013, 03:09 PM
  #58
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Originally Posted by NeedleInTheHay View Post
Bickell is not better than Dupuis or Iggy either, sorry.

After the sweep here, it's like every Pens player except for Malkin and Crosby all of a sudden sucks.

And also Neal and Sharp are very close in talent
In the playoffs Bickell has outperformed Duper and Iggy. He is the type of player we need. I don't give a **** if Duper scores 8000 regular season goals. When push comes to shove in a tight checking playoff series, Duper won't do **** in a top line role.

Also, Sharp > Neal in every way outside of shot release and size.

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06-14-2013, 03:34 PM
  #59
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Well since this year is the only year you can ask the question post-2010, I'd say:

1) Had a deeper group of Goaltenders behind Niemi to rely upon after he left.

2) Better coaching in the playoffs (self-evident).

3) More responsible top defenders that do their job every night and/or don't get into penalty trouble or emotional implosions. Seabrook and Keith are one of the most reliable if not the most reliable pairing in the NHL most of the time, and they both can chip in points even though neither has Letang's higher end offensive skills. Leddy quickly adapted and improved to NHL level under their system also. His skills are closer to Letang than the other two guys IMO. At least offensively.

4) More scoring depth on the wings (even with Iggy here). Kane, Hossa, Sharp are all guys who can consistently pot 35+ goals. We have Neal. Hopefully that equation balances a little with Beauner next year although I think he's more likely to be the kind of guy who notches 45-50A than 35G. At least on this team / the way its' made up.

5) Bottom six has more consistent scoring generally.

6) United Center anthem, crowd and organ are elite.

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Old
06-14-2013, 04:10 PM
  #60
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Originally Posted by vyktor View Post
IMO we have way too many one dimensional player on D. Martin and Letang are really the only 2 who are worth anything in the o zone, and Letang makes up for it in the other end.

Orpik is an offensive black hole, he gets the puck at the point, and if you are lucky he will play it down the boards.

Murray, and Engelland actually have decent shots from the point, not necessarily great, but usulally low hard and near the net, but no creativity with the puck.

Remember that goal Bortuzzo had driving the net, how many of our d have you seen try that.

Our personel limitations on d prevent us from playing like a 5 man unit rather than forwards and d. Cycling the puck back to the point is usually an exercise in futility, so often the one dimensional wingers don't have time to get to the net.

Both Boston and Chicago look like 5 man units
As a Hawks fan - I wholeheartedly agree with this (and also Jiggyfly's post as well). Hawks D is set up to possess the puck avoid spending time in their own zone. When the Bruins do establish the cycle the Hawks are somewhat at a disadvantage because they don't have the horses to clear the front of the net or pin guys against the boards. That being said - the best defense is not letting the cycle get established in the first place. Of the 6 d-man, the Hawks have 3 WAY above average speed wise (Keith, Leddy, Oduya) and 3 average to above average (Hjalmarsson, Seabrook, Roszival). That lets them stand up and still have the speed to recover if the gamble doesn't pay off, and also get back ahead of the forecheck with enough time to make a play. Hawks D is just very mobile, and really balanced. The only guy who I would consider a PMD is Leddy, and the only guy who was a "defensive d-man" prior to this year was Hjalmarsson (who made huge strides this year).

The other thing that is really helpful from the Hawks perspective is they depth with having all 18 skaters able to play a regular shift and contribute. Hawks depth on the blueline let Keith & Seabrook only play 23 minutes a game, which is down about 4 minutes compared to 2010. That's a HUGE difference and kept them much fresher and healthier with the compressed schedule. In the past, Q was line matching like a fiend, but now he has confidence in all 4 lines, and he was able to roll them out, which kept everyone engaged and relatively fresh.

From a Hawks fan - very interesting thread because fans tend to take their own team for granted to a certain extent. Good luck going into next year - hope Shero can make the right moves and lets the young guys take on additional responsibility and show what they can do.

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06-14-2013, 04:37 PM
  #61
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The Penguins has mismanaged players.

Chicago has heart, and they go to the net.

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06-14-2013, 04:38 PM
  #62
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Originally Posted by Shady Machine View Post
In the playoffs Bickell has outperformed Duper and Iggy. He is the type of player we need. I don't give a **** if Duper scores 8000 regular season goals. When push comes to shove in a tight checking playoff series, Duper won't do **** in a top line role.

Also, Sharp > Neal in every way outside of shot release and size.
A few of us have been screaming that **** from the rooftops. That also goes for Kunitz as well.

And Sharp is exactly what you described when compared to Neal. It's not even close.

Amazing to me how many out there are mesmerized by stats.

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06-14-2013, 04:43 PM
  #63
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Originally Posted by Beukeboom Fan View Post
As a Hawks fan - I wholeheartedly agree with this (and also Jiggyfly's post as well). Hawks D is set up to possess the puck avoid spending time in their own zone. When the Bruins do establish the cycle the Hawks are somewhat at a disadvantage because they don't have the horses to clear the front of the net or pin guys against the boards. That being said - the best defense is not letting the cycle get established in the first place. Of the 6 d-man, the Hawks have 3 WAY above average speed wise (Keith, Leddy, Oduya) and 3 average to above average (Hjalmarsson, Seabrook, Roszival). That lets them stand up and still have the speed to recover if the gamble doesn't pay off, and also get back ahead of the forecheck with enough time to make a play. Hawks D is just very mobile, and really balanced. The only guy who I would consider a PMD is Leddy, and the only guy who was a "defensive d-man" prior to this year was Hjalmarsson (who made huge strides this year).

The other thing that is really helpful from the Hawks perspective is they depth with having all 18 skaters able to play a regular shift and contribute. Hawks depth on the blueline let Keith & Seabrook only play 23 minutes a game, which is down about 4 minutes compared to 2010. That's a HUGE difference and kept them much fresher and healthier with the compressed schedule. In the past, Q was line matching like a fiend, but now he has confidence in all 4 lines, and he was able to roll them out, which kept everyone engaged and relatively fresh.

From a Hawks fan - very interesting thread because fans tend to take their own team for granted to a certain extent. Good luck going into next year - hope Shero can make the right moves and lets the young guys take on additional responsibility and show what they can do.
I can point out to almost a dozen instances where the 'Hawks d would pinch down below the circle along the boards to sustain the cycle.

Even when there wasn't an F3 helping out out high, there were numerous occasions where the Bruins looked like they had an odd man break going the other way, and the defenseman was so fast coming back evening things out, he looked like a backchecking forward more than anything.

Bruins started getting chances with odd man breaks in OT not because the 'Hawks system was flawed, but you could see fatigue setting in.

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06-14-2013, 04:45 PM
  #64
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I would take Sharp over Neal any day of the week. He could probably put up 40 goals with Geno, too while being better at pretty much everything else.

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06-14-2013, 04:56 PM
  #65
NeedleInTheHay
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Originally Posted by Shady Machine View Post
In the playoffs Bickell has outperformed Duper and Iggy. He is the type of player we need. I don't give a **** if Duper scores 8000 regular season goals. When push comes to shove in a tight checking playoff series, Duper won't do **** in a top line role.

Also, Sharp > Neal in every way outside of shot release and size.
so then uhh not every way, shot release is pretty damn important for a goal scorer wouldn't ya say?

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06-14-2013, 05:04 PM
  #66
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Originally Posted by NeedleInTheHay View Post
so then uhh not every way, shot release is pretty damn important for a goal scorer wouldn't ya say?
And yet Sharp still scores 30 a year, while adding about 10 other dimensions.

You're not winning this one.

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Old
06-14-2013, 05:06 PM
  #67
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are people actually arguing that Neal is as good as Sharp? He might be a better pure goal scorer, but Sharp is better at everything else. And he's pretty close at scoring goals.

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06-14-2013, 05:10 PM
  #68
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It might seem to be getting overblown but I feel like the net front presence was a HUGE downfall for the Pens that the Hawks are taking advantage of. Oduya ties it right in front of the net. If a defenseman can score in front of the net how the hell could none of our forwards think to go there? Also, the OT game winner was a deflection. I don't think any of the Pens even put a single deflection on net, off the net or anywhere close to the net. If you're not scoring you can't keep going for wide open unscreened wrist shots. The Pens didn't do anything in the way of garbage goals.

Also the Hawks wingers are immensely better than the Pens at creating for themselves and doing other things. Sid looked absolutely awful and while Geno looked very good he put up ZERO points. Neal doesn't really create for himself and he was missing the net left and right. All the other wingers were just plain un-noticeable or flat out bad.

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06-14-2013, 05:12 PM
  #69
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Originally Posted by Hail Stannis View Post
It might seem to be getting overblown but I feel like the net front presence was a HUGE downfall for the Pens that the Hawks are taking advantage of. Oduya ties it right in front of the net. If a defenseman can score in front of the net how the hell could none of our forwards think to go there? Also, the OT game winner was a deflection. I don't think any of the Pens even put a single deflection on net, off the net or anywhere close to the net. If you're not scoring you can't keep going for wide open unscreened wrist shots. The Pens didn't do anything in the way of garbage goals.

Also the Hawks wingers are immensely better than the Pens at creating for themselves and doing other things. Sid looked absolutely awful and while Geno looked very good he put up ZERO points. Neal doesn't really create for himself and he was missing the net left and right. All the other wingers were just plain un-noticeable or flat out bad.
I want us to let Dupuis and Iggy walk and use that money and spot to bring in a guy who goes to the net. And then I want us to tell Kunitz and Neal that they need to do it sometimes too. Kunitz does against most teams. Just not Boston. Couldn't deal with their defense.

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06-14-2013, 05:38 PM
  #70
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Less "optional" practices.

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06-14-2013, 06:14 PM
  #71
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Such a deep question.

- Net front presence. The Hawks just seem to instinctively get into the goalie's line of sight. Pens don't do that at all. And it does NOT require a cycle game. Just look at the OT winner from the other night.

- Coaching. Notice how the Hawks adjusted their breakout after the stretch pass wasn't working halfway into the game? The Pens didn't change the breakout all through the playoffs.

- D zone coverage. Pens would "lose" their guys way too often it seemed. Hawks look like they backcheck much harder.

- O zone failures. Not sure why, but Malkin would try to do EVERYTHING himself. James Neal wouldn't forecheck, go to scoring areas, cycle, or do anything of value. He would loop off and hide either behind the goal line or somewhere by the wall. D just needed to hammer the puck to the net as well. Rozsival showed it doesn't take a hard or accurate shot. I know part of that is because Rask had no traffic to impede his vision.

Power play adjustments - Boston did a great job shutting down the Pens pp during the regular season. So when the Bruins did the same thing the Pens seemed like they've never seen that before. Were trying for the perfect play, and when it didn't work they kept trying over and over with no adjustments.

There's more, but that's all I got for now. Also, to me it's pathetically laughable that Neal is being mentioned in the same sentence as Sharp. I hate the way Neal plays more than I've ever hated any Penguin ever. He showed up for maybe 4 games this year.

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06-14-2013, 06:44 PM
  #72
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Well, they'd probably do a better job standing up for Toews if Toews had just recovered from a broken jaw and Chara decided to punch him directly in that jaw while Bergeron was holding him back. (And people wonder why Crosby got a bit pissed off in game 1)

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06-14-2013, 06:45 PM
  #73
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There are a bunch of things and at the same time the Hawks are doing some things just like the Pens... they just do it better.

The Hawks stretch pass to players with speed and then support that speed so that player has options. The Pens would stretch pass to some slower players and give him no support. So that player that gets the stretch pass gets eaten alive by any player gapping well.

The Hawks turned that Bruins D around by making smart dumps, getting the puck and then using the endboards to make plays. The Pens were just sucked into the Bruins collapse, skated right into them or skated up to them and put a lame shot on Rask. No poise, no set up...

Bumping Rask every now and then. The Hawks go to the net hard and seem to be getting under his skin. The Pens rushed their shots so net front never became an issue.

The Hawks match up... the Pens don't.

The Hawks can cover Toews and Kane when they don't score. The Pens don't cover Malkin and Sid.

The Hawks best player is finding a way to play well even though he might not have had a great game. Sid played some of the worst hockey I've ever seen him play.

The Hawks are a lot cleaner coming out of their own zone. The Pens made mistake and giveaways that peewee's would laugh at.

Even when the Hawks did make mistakes their structure can take over and keep things safe. Make a mistake... its addressed and adjusted to with structural issues so it doesn't happen again. With the Pens it seems like a mistake is dealt with by telling the player he has to do better next time. No adjustments, no change in plans.

The Hawks know when to reverse the puck. The Pens will force the puck up the wall even if Godzilla is taking a lane away.
I wonder why Bylsma didn't think of these things.

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06-14-2013, 06:48 PM
  #74
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I would take Sharp over Neal any day of the week. He could probably put up 40 goals with Geno, too while being better at pretty much everything else.
Sharp is definitely a better all-around player than Neal but it may not always be that way (except for PK, which I can't see Neal ever doing). I've noticed Neal has already improved his puck handling since coming here and his skating a little bit as well. If he keeps improving he could be a real all-around monster. Remeber Sharp has a few years experience on Neal.

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06-14-2013, 06:59 PM
  #75
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Got multiple bodies to the net and scored the dirty goals instead of trying to out talent the opposition by making the pretty play.


cant stress that enuff

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