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Bure vs. Ovechkin

View Poll Results: Who was better?
8 65 72.22%
96 / 10 25 27.78%
Voters: 90. You may not vote on this poll

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Old
06-18-2013, 11:41 AM
  #101
quoipourquoi
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Butch 19 View Post
yeah, but Bure also had to play entirely thru the clutch-n-grab era though. Since the 05 lockout, Ovy has had clear open fast ice, with virtually no obstruction to deal with.

I think a lot of this vote is east coast fans who didn't see a lot of Bure. Of course being on the west coast I saw more of Bure than I see of Ovy.

If I had to take one of them to start a team, it would be Bure every time.

And Ovy's occasional "cruising" around the rink doesn't help his cause either.
I don't know that I buy that one, especially since he was an East Coast player during the bulk of the Dead Puck Era. If anything, it's people with long memories that can point to Bure's 1995, 1996, and 1997 and say that Ovechkin's 2012 doesn't look so bad.

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06-18-2013, 03:43 PM
  #102
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Originally Posted by quoipourquoi View Post
I don't know that I buy that one, especially since he was an East Coast player during the bulk of the Dead Puck Era. If anything, it's people with long memories that can point to Bure's 1995, 1996, and 1997 and say that Ovechkin's 2012 doesn't look so bad.
He was battling substantial injuries during that stretch; I don't think it would be fair or accurate to cite Bure's performance between 1995 and 1997 when comparing the two players.

You can read more about this period of time here:

http://hfboards.hockeysfuture.com/sh...7&postcount=89


Last edited by JetsAlternate: 06-18-2013 at 04:55 PM.
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06-18-2013, 05:22 PM
  #103
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Though Pavel Bure's career regular season performance is fairly well-documented, many people forget exactly how instrumental he was to the Vancouver Canucks' success in their 1994 Stanley Cup campaign. In fact, one of Pavel's best series is completely overlooked by most hockey fans. One of the attributes people seem to forget is that he was a playoff performer who would elevate his game in crucial situations. He scored the Game 7 double overtime winner against the Calgary Flames, then unleashed himself against the Dallas Stars in the 1994 Western Conference Semifinals, scoring nine points in just five games. In Game 5 alone, he had nine shots and scored twice, utilizing all of his abilities including his two-way play. This brief look at Games 3 and 5 of the series against Dallas is designed to provide a clearer image of Pavel's performance in this series.

The footage featured here is from two games: Games 3 and 5 of the 1994 Western Conference Semifinals vs Dallas. This is a series viewers often forget and one I feel highlights his ability to dominate.

Game 3: May 6, 1994 vs the Dallas Stars
Game 5: May 10, 1994 vs the Dallas Stars



In keeping this video brief, the Game 3 footage focuses on one particular stretch of play in which Bure and the Canucks successfully kill a penalty then defend in their own zone. Out of no where, they counter and Bure's speed draws a penalty on Dallas. He demonstrates his quick release moments later, scoring his fourth goal in three games.

The Game 5 footage showcases several of Bure's chances that game, highlighting how dominant he could be and how he could single-handedly control a game. He generated a chance every time he had the puck, often starting from his own zone. Even with their players in front of him, the Stars found it tremendously difficult to contain his vicious attack. The Canucks won the match 4-2 on the strength of Pavel's two goals.

There are many who forget about the series against Dallas as it is hardly ever featured in any discussions regarding Pavel or the 1994 Canucks. His heroics carried the team past the second round for the first time in twelve years, part of the journey that would ultimately end with Game 7 of the Stanley Cup Finals. Had they won the Cup, he would have been a prime candidate to win the Conn Smythe Trophy. Those who do not consider his ability to perform in the playoffs should reconsider. On the brink of elimination in Game 5 of the Stanley Cup Finals, for instance, he scored twice to extend the series. He brought his very best at the most crucial times.

Pavel proved to everyone in this series that he could put a team on his back in the postseason.


Last edited by JetsAlternate: 06-18-2013 at 06:06 PM.
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06-18-2013, 07:00 PM
  #104
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Originally Posted by Sentinel View Post
The Stamkos talk is laughable. He is several notches below everyone in this conversation. Can you imagine Kariya or Bure or Ovechkin left off their national squads?
Unimaginable that a 20 year old got left off their squad.

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06-18-2013, 11:32 PM
  #105
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JetsAlternate View Post
He was battling substantial injuries during that stretch; I don't think it would be fair or accurate to cite Bure's performance between 1995 and 1997 when comparing the two players.

You can read more about this period of time here:

http://hfboards.hockeysfuture.com/sh...7&postcount=89
As I've said about my own dog in the European fight, there's a difference between a reason and an excuse. Injuries often are the reason for a sharp decline in production, but in an all-time argument, they aren't an excuse when there are lesser accomplishments. I don't mind writing the years off entirely; 1995-1997 wasn't the Pavel Bure we'll all remember. All I'm saying is that Ovechkin's bad PR is a little bit fresher. A lot of the goodwill he earned back at the end of the 2013 season was lost by these playoffs, but like 1995-1997 Bure, it's entirely possible we'll gloss over it in 15 years.


EDIT: I do want to add that your continued advocation for Pavel Bure has raised my opinion of him, and it often leaves me feeling nostalgic. And honestly, put a gun to my head, and I'd rather have Bure on my team - and that probably means more than I give it credit for sometimes, but I try to post with my head and not my gut. Keep up the good work.

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06-19-2013, 07:16 PM
  #106
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Originally Posted by quoipourquoi View Post
As I've said about my own dog in the European fight, there's a difference between a reason and an excuse. Injuries often are the reason for a sharp decline in production, but in an all-time argument, they aren't an excuse when there are lesser accomplishments. I don't mind writing the years off entirely; 1995-1997 wasn't the Pavel Bure we'll all remember. All I'm saying is that Ovechkin's bad PR is a little bit fresher. A lot of the goodwill he earned back at the end of the 2013 season was lost by these playoffs, but like 1995-1997 Bure, it's entirely possible we'll gloss over it in 15 years.


EDIT: I do want to add that your continued advocation for Pavel Bure has raised my opinion of him, and it often leaves me feeling nostalgic. And honestly, put a gun to my head, and I'd rather have Bure on my team - and that probably means more than I give it credit for sometimes, but I try to post with my head and not my gut. Keep up the good work.
Thank you for the kind words. I'm glad you have formed a different opinion of Pavel. I think, at times, too much emphasis is placed on numbers and trophies alone and not enough on actual footage and circumstances. Sometimes the footage itself can speak volumes; such performances as the ones in the video are often buried and inevitably lost in the wake of annual statistics. It's tremendous that we have such resources as Hockey-Reference and YouTube to archive box scores and to share video, respectively. Footage can say a lot about a player's style of play, level of performance/dominance, and how he might adapt to different eras. The performance seen above simply can't be translated into numbers in a justifiable, representative manner. Bure contributed plenty more to his team than I think most give him credit for, and I think his game would have translated even better in the post-lockout NHL.

This interview with Bob McKenzie in early 1999 took place on the day of the Bure trade to Florida.

http://www.purplelion.com/palace/paveltrade2.shtml
Quote:
An Interview with Hockey Analyst Bob McKenzie
January 17, 1999

...

BOB: ... Pavel Bure can come on back from Russia now. He's got a deal to play this season. And he can answer for the fans in Vancouver and elsewhere as to why he didn't want to play for the Vancouver Canucks. The important thing for him and for the Florida Panthers is the Florida Panthers suddenly have some personality on this team now, a team that went to the Stanley Cup final on the basis of John Vanbiesbrouck and a bunch of guys that work hard now have one of the most dynamic players in the National Hockey League. It's going to be very interesting. They should be able to weather the loss of Jovanovski on the blue line. They'll look to other guys: Svehla, and Warrener and some other guys to step it up, what they've got now in a market that really needs a boost is the dynamics of Pavel Bure. So it's a good deal, a great deal for the Florida Panthers.
That's certainly different from the opinion many here shared of him just last year. I think his time in Florida became misunderstood over time to represent his entire NHL career. Certainly leading up to Bure's last day as a Vancouver Canuck, he was understood to be a dynamic force. The turn of the millennium was when games began to be broadcast nationally on a more frequent basis, and unfortunately the Bure of 2000-01 was what most fans saw. New York Rangers games in 2002-03 weren't nationally broadcast often enough to fully showcase to a widespread audience his return to his two-way game, though certainly Rangers fans saw the immediate changes shortly after acquiring him.

I feel Ovechkin's 2013 Hart Trophy accomplishment will be remembered more strongly in the future than his recent playoff performance simply because of the former's tendency to be used as an indicator of that year's best regular season player. Sometimes the Hart Trophy winner is debatable, but in several years that debate will fade and weaken unless we are reminded of it on an intermittent basis. That said, Ovechkin's regular season was phenomenal. I don't know exactly why he struggled so much these past two years, but he has seemingly returned to his pre-2010 form. I think people will forgive his worst years if we ever discover what the issues were.

When Bure was at his best, he simply could dominate a game; often he would have several chances and then score a few. Sometimes, as in his first ever NHL game, he would not score though he would still clearly be controlling the game. Even when he didn't score, though, that type of performance could sway the momentum of a match and instill fear in the opposition. That's the kind of player I think everyone would want on their team and it's why I feel Pavel was at his best in a Canucks sweater. For much of his time as a Florida Panther his knee was already worn down by two major knee injuries/ACL tears and subsequent reconstructive surgeries, and by the time he was in New York he was hobbling on one leg.

http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/hoc...3/29/bure_acl/
Quote:
Bure's season over
Panthers' star has surgery to repair ACL
Posted: Monday March 29, 1999 11:24 PM

MIAMI (AP) -- Pavel Bure's first season with the Florida Panthers is over after just 11 games, lost to the second reconstructive surgery on his right knee in less than four years.

The high-scoring Russian underwent surgery Monday in Birmingham, Ala., to replace the anterior cruciate ligament in the knee. Dr. James Andrews performed the operation, using a portion of Bure's patellar tendon as a substitute.

Bure faces at least six months of rehabilitation, meaning he might not be ready when training camp rolls around next September.

...

Bure had not seen action since March 3, a 7-5 loss to the Colorado Avalanche in which he was bent backward by an open-ice check from Adam Foote in the first period.

Bure continued to play and scored three goals in the first two periods as Florida jumped to a 5-0 lead. But he sat out the third as the Avalanche roared back with seven goals.

He underwent surgery to repair torn cartilage, which also revealed the ligament damage. Bure hoped to put off another operation until after the season, but rehabilitation and a brace did not make the knee strong enough.

"A number of players have came back and played without the ACL," Murray said, mentioning Pittsburgh's Darius Kasparaitis as an example. "But he worked out and did therapy, the knee was loose. He didn't feel he could function the way he wanted to. Stopping and starting and things he needs to be really successful weren't coming to him."


Last edited by JetsAlternate: 06-20-2013 at 12:25 AM.
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06-20-2013, 08:32 AM
  #107
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Originally Posted by unknown33 View Post
Unimaginable that a 20 year old got left off their squad.
They also left off St. Louis and Richards. And Crosby/Staal/Spezza in 2006. What I would take from it is that the National Team isn't always the best indicator of who's the best player. It feels like they picked a team for 2009, which is something that would have specifically hurt Stamkos.

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06-20-2013, 12:56 PM
  #108
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I dunno, to me the national team selection, especially for a nation as deep as Canada, is a pretty good indication of player's value. Not that they don't make some odd choices sometimes (Rob Zamuner?).

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06-20-2013, 01:17 PM
  #109
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Well I'd really question that, since you brought up freakin Rob Zamuner making the Canadian team in 1998 and especially since you used it in direct comparison comparison to Bure and Selanne making the Russian and Finnish national teams, and since Stamkos is an ironlock for next year's team now.

And in general it's just such a brain dead thing to do in comparison with anything else. Why would you discount a guy like Stamkos who has 4 consecutive seasons in the top 5 in scoring and top 2 in goals having turned 23 in February? Your argument can't simply boil down to the Olympic thing, and if so it's one of the worst arguments we've seen on HoH. What about Stamkos makes you think he's not even on Kariya's level?

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06-22-2013, 07:26 AM
  #110
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Well I'd really question that, since you brought up freakin Rob Zamuner making the Canadian team in 1998 and especially since you used it in direct comparison comparison to Bure and Selanne making the Russian and Finnish national teams, and since Stamkos is an ironlock for next year's team now.

And in general it's just such a brain dead thing to do in comparison with anything else. Why would you discount a guy like Stamkos who has 4 consecutive seasons in the top 5 in scoring and top 2 in goals having turned 23 in February? Your argument can't simply boil down to the Olympic thing, and if so it's one of the worst arguments we've seen on HoH. What about Stamkos makes you think he's not even on Kariya's level?
I don't think he is on Kariya's level. Kariya dragged his team into playoffs with supporting cast weaker and division stronger than Stamkos's. Kariya was an extremely special player, instantly recognizable. Stamkos can pile up all the goals he can, but both the eye test and the team's record tell me Kariya was better.

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