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Rangers name Alain Vigneault head coach - Part II

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06-16-2013, 03:28 PM
  #276
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Originally Posted by Maineice11 View Post
in your mind if Messier were to be hired as an assistant with vigneault and vigneault lasted say 4 seasons, would that qualify Messier enough to take over as the head coach? I'm just curious of your opinion and others.
First of all Messier becoming assistant coach is not recommended. We just hired AV we don't need any coaching controversies. He needs to become an AC at the NHL level somewhere (which is unlikely IMO honestly) or
get a head coaching gig at the AHL level and progressively work his way up to an NHL coaching position.

But to answer your question if he was he Rangers AC for four years and whether or not that would qualify him in my eyes as the next coach depends on a boat load of variables. It's as much about performance as it would be about time he'd spend coaching. It depends on what responsibilities he's given. Is he in charge of the PP? ES offense? If so is the team performing? Are they consistent? There's tons of questions to ask but once again it basically comes down to time spent coaching and performance of the team for what he's responsible for. I love Messier but when it comes to a head coaching position it must be earned. It doesn't matter who you are.

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06-16-2013, 03:32 PM
  #277
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[QUOTE=KingWantsCup;67561275]First of all Messier becoming assistant coach is not recommended. We just hired AV we don't need any coaching controversies. He needs to become an AC at the NHL level somewhere (which is unlikely IMO honestly) or
get a head coaching gig at the AHL level and progressively work his way up to an NHL coaching position.

But to answer your question if he was he Rangers AC for four years and whether or not that would qualify him in my eyes as the next coach depends on a boat load of variables. It's as much about performance as it would be about time he'd spend coaching. It depends on what responsibilities he's given. Is he in charge of the PP? ES offense? If so is the team performing? Are they consistent? There's tons of questions to ask but once again it basically comes down to time spent coaching and performance of the team for what he's responsible for. I love Messier but when it comes to a head coaching position it must be earned. It doesn't matter who you are.[/QUO

Yes, AV deserves to bring in hisw guys and if its Messier, so be it.

4 years ACing for a sucessful team qualifies you for a HC gig, just may not be with the same team.

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06-16-2013, 03:35 PM
  #278
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Originally Posted by Lundsanity30 View Post
For the people who are saying we are now worse off, can you explain why you believe this? At worst, AV is Torts with a more offensive style, so even if we get a little more offense, how exactly are we worse off with AV?
Where are you hearing that he has a more offensive style? From all accounts he's a defensive-minded coach who sits on leads.

In terms of us being worse-off, I should rephrase: I don't think he's the guy for the job, based on what I've seen of him. If he couldn't win a cup with that team, he's not going to win one with a team filled with mediocre forwards that disappear in the playoffs.

When the games count more, it seems like his coaching/teams performance gets worse. That's the exact opposite of what we need.

I love the pro AV argument "Oh he'll be better suited for a team like us with bunch of grinders.

Everyone is RIDICULOUSLY overestimating our "grinders". We don't have a team like Boston or Chicago in terms of either toughness or skill.

The term "grinder" is becoming synonymous with low-skill guys that check people on occasion.

I just don't have a good feeling about this guy.. but I'll hope for the best.

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06-16-2013, 03:40 PM
  #279
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Originally Posted by KingWantsCup View Post
First of all Messier becoming assistant coach is not recommended. We just hired AV we don't need any coaching controversies. He needs to become an AC at the NHL level somewhere (which is unlikely IMO honestly) or
get a head coaching gig at the AHL level and progressively work his way up to an NHL coaching position.

But to answer your question if he was he Rangers AC for four years and whether or not that would qualify him in my eyes as the next coach depends on a boat load of variables. It's as much about performance as it would be about time he'd spend coaching. It depends on what responsibilities he's given. Is he in charge of the PP? ES offense? If so is the team performing? Are they consistent? There's tons of questions to ask but once again it basically comes down to time spent coaching and performance of the team for what he's responsible for. I love Messier but when it comes to a head coaching position it must be earned. It doesn't matter who you are.
all good points, I agree with you completely. Only reason I brought it was because there is a rumor out there someone posted in the last thread that was tweeted by thefourthperiod, that Messier could take one of the assistant coaching jobs.

we shall see what happens.

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06-16-2013, 03:42 PM
  #280
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Sounds like they went with a similarly defensive minded coach who isn't so animated, or abrasive.

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06-16-2013, 03:43 PM
  #281
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Originally Posted by Lindberg Cheese View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by KingWantsCup View Post
First of all Messier becoming assistant coach is not recommended. We just hired AV we don't need any coaching controversies. He needs to become an AC at the NHL level somewhere (which is unlikely IMO honestly) or
get a head coaching gig at the AHL level and progressively work his way up to an NHL coaching position.

But to answer your question if he was he Rangers AC for four years and whether or not that would qualify him in my eyes as the next coach depends on a boat load of variables. It's as much about performance as it would be about time he'd spend coaching. It depends on what responsibilities he's given. Is he in charge of the PP? ES offense? If so is the team performing? Are they consistent? There's tons of questions to ask but once again it basically comes down to time spent coaching and performance of the team for what he's responsible for. I love Messier but when it comes to a head coaching position it must be earned. It doesn't matter who you are.
Yes, AV deserves to bring in hisw guys and if its Messier, so be it.

4 years ACing for a sucessful team qualifies you for a HC gig, just may not be with the same team.
I think in normal situations you're right it may not be with the same team, but I think because he is Messier he would be given a chance.

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06-16-2013, 03:44 PM
  #282
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Originally Posted by Maineice11 View Post
I think in normal situations you're right it may not be with the same team, but I think because he is Messier he would be given a chance.
Well that's ridiculous. A person shouldn't be given a job based on name value, it should be based on how qualified/capable they are for said job.

AV needs to pick his own assistants.

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06-16-2013, 03:49 PM
  #283
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Well that's ridiculous. A person shouldn't be given a job based on name value, it should be based on how qualified/capable they are for said job.

AV needs to pick his own assistants.
I agree, but if AV picks Messier then so be it and if after 4 years AV is let go and Messier was successful at his job and is given a job interview for the head coaching job of the Rangers depending on where the organization is at he'd more than likely get the job in my opinion if Sather's influences are still lingering in the organization. But this is pure speculation so far in the future. Right now is the Rangers have a new coach coming in and what he will do with this team this offseason and next season and who he brings in with him, if it is messier though it will be interesting.

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06-16-2013, 03:50 PM
  #284
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If AV picks Messier, so be it, but the last thing I want is for Messier to forced into an asst's role, with AV pretty much knowing he's being groomed for the next head coaching vacancy. It comes off as bush league.

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06-16-2013, 03:55 PM
  #285
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I mentioned a few weeks ago that AV is similar to Torts. Both preach defensive responsibility and approach the game conservatively.

The main difference is in their demeanor. By many accounts, it seems like the players got tired of Torts' surly attitude, and this was more of a factor in his firing as opposed to his style of play. The players got what they wanted in AV, he won't berate them or embarrass them in the media.

That being said, it's put up or shut up time for the players. They wanted Torts gone and had input in AV's hiring. No excuses for them now.

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06-16-2013, 04:04 PM
  #286
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Originally Posted by Brian Boyle View Post
If AV picks Messier, so be it, but the last thing I want is for Messier to forced into an asst's role, with AV pretty much knowing he's being groomed for the next head coaching vacancy. It comes off as bush league.
I hope AV does pick Messier as an Assistant. Why? It the Rangers have any success Messier will get a job offer and probably take it to Coach another team. It also might make it less possible Messier gets named GM if/when Sather steps down. For all we know Dolan and Sather are telling Messier they see him as GM material not Coach material.

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06-16-2013, 04:06 PM
  #287
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I'd be cool with Messier as an Assistant. If he wants to become a head coach one day, this is how he will get experience.

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06-16-2013, 04:07 PM
  #288
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Originally Posted by OverTheCap View Post
I mentioned a few weeks ago that AV is similar to Torts. Both preach defensive responsibility and approach the game conservatively.

The main difference is in their demeanor. By many accounts, it seems like the players got tired of Torts' surly attitude, and this was more of a factor in his firing as opposed to his style of play. The players got what they wanted in AV, he won't berate them or embarrass them in the media.

That being said, it's put up or shut up time for the players. They wanted Torts gone and had input in AV's hiring. No excuses for them now.
From what I've read from Canucks fans, admittedly before he was about to be the coach, there is one other somewhat subtle difference that makes a huge impact.

AV preaches a defensively responsible game. He lays out a framework for the players to play in. By and large, though, he seems to take a minimalist approach to what the players actually do on the ice. Tortorella was not that way. At all. He wanted to be in control at all times and he wanted to hold guys accountable for individual mistakes. As we saw, that eventually led to a total lack of creativity with the puck, to the point of hesitancy on the part of some players. If that aspect of Vigneault's coaching is as advertised, it will make a huge difference to the way the team plays*, even if he wants to implement the same exact system as was already here.

*By this, I don't mean win/loss record. I mean the way they actually look as a team on the ice.

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06-16-2013, 04:20 PM
  #289
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True or not, I want to see this team "practice" offense.

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06-16-2013, 04:23 PM
  #290
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No messier even as assistant. Let him go down and coach the Pack or something. Pay his dues and prove he can coach.

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06-16-2013, 04:41 PM
  #291
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While Torts and AV may be similar, the differences are important. I think it was a wise decision to go with another defensive minded coach, this team is built to play that game. However, I think AV will bring a lot to the table specifically in line matching which was one thing Torts didn't do very well IMO. Also AV doesn't collapse as much and has a better breakout IMO. The demeanor being different is huge though, we saw what Torts could do with this team playing a defensive system in 11'-12' before the team got fed up with his personality.

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06-16-2013, 04:48 PM
  #292
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Is he a zuccarello guy?

Meaning..is zuke gonna be back under his watch?

I say Yes..

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06-16-2013, 04:49 PM
  #293
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Originally Posted by Green Blob View Post
No messier even as assistant. Let him go down and coach the Pack or something. Pay his dues and prove he can coach.
other coaches have started their coaching careers as assistant coaches in the nhl and have become head coaches in the nhl from that. See Adam Oates. It is just a different path to take to being a head coach in the NHL. Just like all players take different ways to get to the NHL; all coaches take different ways to get the NHL. Sure they all should pay their dues before, but they are paid in different ways.

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06-16-2013, 04:50 PM
  #294
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Originally Posted by Barbara Underhill View Post
While Torts and AV may be similar, the differences are important. I think it was a wise decision to go with another defensive minded coach, this team is built to play that game. However, I think AV will bring a lot to the table specifically in line matching which was one thing Torts didn't do very well IMO. Also AV doesn't collapse as much and has a better breakout IMO. The demeanor being different is huge though, we saw what Torts could do with this team playing a defensive system in 11'-12' before the team got fed up with his personality.
I totally agree with this post, but especially the bolded. I always found the call for a real offensively minded coach to be foolish. You want to bring in a guy whose system is going to fit the players the team has best, while expecting him to make tweaks for that roster as well.

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06-16-2013, 05:10 PM
  #295
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I totally agree with this post, but especially the bolded. I always found the call for a real offensively minded coach to be foolish. You want to bring in a guy whose system is going to fit the players the team has best, while expecting him to make tweaks for that roster as well.
Not going to lie, I was clamoring for more offense initially. However, not at the expense of defense. Which I feel like we got, I especially like the fact that AV likes using longer outlet passes and I think that will be enough to satisfy me, considering all I really wanted was a better transition game.

I really wanted Boucher, but once I realized that wasn't likely at all I was all for AV.

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06-16-2013, 05:20 PM
  #296
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Is AV a more puck possession coach ?
Yes, and he really likes the D pinching and jumping in on the rush.

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06-16-2013, 05:22 PM
  #297
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Looking forward to the first poorly played game next year, or God forbid a two-game losing streak, when people start screaming that Vigneault is a disaster.

Also anxiously awaiting to see who next year's despised Ranger is. Wish there was a stock market where we could invest in such things.

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06-16-2013, 05:29 PM
  #298
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Yes, and he really likes the D pinching and jumping in on the rush.
A detroitish style of play.

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06-16-2013, 05:29 PM
  #299
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Looking forward to the first poorly played game next year, or God forbid a two-game losing streak, when people start screaming that Vigneault is a disaster.

Also anxiously awaiting to see who next year's despised Ranger is. Wish there was a stock market where we could invest in such things.
You're looking forward to a poorly played game? Great mindset!

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06-16-2013, 05:30 PM
  #300
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Yes, and he really likes the D pinching and jumping in on the rush.
This I like. A lot.

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