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Rangers name Alain Vigneault head coach - Part II

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Old
06-18-2013, 03:39 PM
  #651
SouthJerseyRanger
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Three points about Tortorella's shortcomings as Rangers coach, none of them having anything to do with the basic strategies he employed (except somewhat for the 3rd point)

1. I get what he means when he says he doesn't want to stymie creativity in the offensive zone through structured breakouts and set plays. The defensive side of hockey needs to be more systematic and ordered, and therefore requires more practice. That said, even the best players in the world need to be constantly honing their skills. Passing drills, breakouts, shooting drills, etc. A bodybuilder does not just drop the weights once he hits a goal. The sloppy offensive play, mistimed and inaccurate passing, constantly shooting into the goaltender's chest; all of these can and did directly result from a team that simply does not work on keeping their offensive game at a high level.

2. Cultivating an environment where young forwards cannot take risks and learn from mistakes is not going to get them anywhere. Kreider and Miller, especially, played very timid hockey because they knew one little defensive gaffe would have their ***** stapled to the bench. Good luck developing young forwards with that mindset.

3. The constant collapsing. The team just did not play with any sense that puck possession was important. Almost EVERY team in the league would dominate the Rangers in puck possession. ALL OF 'EM. Even any Rangers playoff win in the last two years would have to survive a 10-minute enemy barrage at the end of the game with little attempt to even ANSWER the pressure being imposed. Hell, even in the regular season the Rangers relied so much on 1 goal, shootout, and overtime victories that it's no wonder they fade when tested with stiffer competition.

^ Torts made no attempts to adjust away from these fatal consequences at any point in his tenure. The Rangers roster at the start of the 2013 season was stacked moreso than any team other than the Penguins with talent. The fact that we never got to see what that team could do under a balanced, pressing system before they had to jettison Gaborik, demote Kreider, and bring in Torts-style grinders like Clowe is the biggest regret as a fan I have in his time as coach.

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06-18-2013, 03:39 PM
  #652
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jonathan. View Post
If by predictable you mean thoughtful in comparison and not going by outdated scouting reports, you'd be correct. Sorry that I disagree with you and that you haven't presented a shred of logic that would furthr your debate.

Posts like this from you are how one knows that you have nothing left to add and are bowing out.
You have moved quite a bit from he sucks ass to

Quote:
Frankly, their shots are about even. Rundblad is a more creative player, playmaking wise. I don't think Rundblad is world's better offensively. I think he is possibly a bit more skilled, but that doesn't really mean all that much.
Which is more or less what I was arguing.

Edit: If you call that bowing out, sure go ahead.
And what I meant by predictable is you start out with a dramatic entrance and you keep giving ground until you are almost at the opposite end of where you started.

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06-18-2013, 03:42 PM
  #653
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Originally Posted by stan the caddy View Post
You didn't "fail" just because you fell short of winning the cup. If that was the case you couldn't possibly call AV and "outstanding" coach considering he's been a "failure" his whole career based on that definition of the word.

Tortorella didn't "fail" this year. The pucks didn't bounce our way, the players were banged up, and a few guys probably got a little lazy in the offseason. He turned into the scapegoat for all of that. Only one team wins the cup every year.
All of the bold may be true, but I notice you make no mention of the performance of the coach....

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06-18-2013, 03:42 PM
  #654
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The grass is always greener on the other side. I had no issues with Tortorella going down the stretch and also thought he deserved at least another shot.

Time will only tell.

BUT...

TOrtorella was a great coach for us while he was here. I didnt see any of you complaining last year when we made a run to the ECF and barely lost to the Devils.

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06-18-2013, 03:43 PM
  #655
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They didn't want him gone? He's not the coach anymore. Alain Vigneault is the coach. Tortorella is gone.

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06-18-2013, 03:44 PM
  #656
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You can always tell when summer has kicked in around here.

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06-18-2013, 03:45 PM
  #657
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Originally Posted by Captain Monglobster View Post
You must not have watched those three Stanley Cup finals the Devils won. Claude Julien and his Bruins also say hello.

If you didn't like Torts system fine but give the man some respect, he is the only coach to bring the Rangers to the Conference finals since most of the posters on HF have been born.
If you have to go to pre 04-05 lockout to make your point into todayís NHL I think your argument is flawed from the start. For a defensive team the NYR are nowhere nearly as good as Brodeur and his defense back when they won those cups. I donít recall them getting hemmed in their own end for minutes at a time, dropping to the ice as human targets either. The Bruins are not the Rangers. The fact that they donít have a good PP doesnít absolve Tortorella for not developing his own. Julien was able to overcome it in all other areas, Tortorella... not.

I said he did some good things, but I donít think he was a very good coach. Iíve watched every game heís coached since he arrived, and he was hardly able to affect in game dynamics. He coached a system much like his personality, inflexible, obstinate, non creative, non progressive. When things worked out in our favor... great. when they didnít... we lost.

If not for Krieder, we would have been knocked out in round 1. wake up.

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06-18-2013, 03:53 PM
  #658
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Originally Posted by levski87 View Post
The grass is always greener on the other side. I had no issues with Tortorella going down the stretch and also thought he deserved at least another shot.

Time will only tell.

BUT...

TOrtorella was a great coach for us while he was here. I didnt see any of you complaining last year when we made a run to the ECF and barely lost to the Devils.
look at the way we won, is that sustainable play? We could barely score 2g, and if not for Krieder, we're knocked in round 1? The rangers won DESPITE of tortorella, not because of him, much like round 1 this year against the capitals.

His system is garbage. garbage up and down the ice. Killing the clock crap hockey. sit back and lose hockey.

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06-18-2013, 04:09 PM
  #659
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kwayry View Post
You have moved quite a bit from he sucks ass to



Which is more or less what I was arguing.

Edit: If you call that bowing out, sure go ahead.
And what I meant by predictable is you start out with a dramatic entrance and you keep giving ground until you are almost at the opposite end of where you started.
I do think he sucks ass. You do not have very good reasoning skills. Just because a guy has one good trait (and I do think he has a few solid offensive skills) does not mean, overall, that he doesn't suck. Rundblad has a single good trait. Offensive skill. That's it. He has no mental game and less than no defensive game. Overall, the guy sucks. He's a liability when he's on the ice.

Why do I have to break everything down for you? Read my posts, use some logic, and comment. I am tired of doing the reasoning for you. I have not posted anything that is vague or ambiguous.

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06-18-2013, 04:13 PM
  #660
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Quote:
Originally Posted by NikC View Post
look at the way we won, is that sustainable play? We could barely score 2g, and if not for Krieder, we're knocked in round 1? The rangers won DESPITE of tortorella, not because of him, much like round 1 this year against the capitals.

His system is garbage. garbage up and down the ice. Killing the clock crap hockey. sit back and lose hockey.
Defensive hockey is the trend right now. Last year the Kings were 29th in scoring during the regular season.

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06-18-2013, 04:14 PM
  #661
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Originally Posted by NHRangerfan View Post
All of the bold may be true, but I notice you make no mention of the performance of the coach....
Because it's not his fault and you'll see that next year. I'll be pleased with another second round exit. The Rangers aren't even the best team in their division.

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06-18-2013, 04:21 PM
  #662
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Quote:
Originally Posted by stan the caddy View Post
Defensive hockey is the trend right now. Last year the Kings were 29th in scoring during the regular season.
And first in playoff scoring if you take out the pond hockey games between the Pens and Flyers.

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06-18-2013, 04:26 PM
  #663
stan the caddy
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Grind Jam Grind View Post
And first in playoff scoring if you take out the pond hockey games between the Pens and Flyers.
Pens vs. Flyers: an example of a style that doesn't work.

The Kings got hot at the right time and their players actually showed up in the postseason. Sutter didn't all of a sudden make some crazy coaching changes that led to more scoring.

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06-18-2013, 04:30 PM
  #664
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I think everyone needs to relax here. All of the sudden the off season starts and people start bickering. It's like a switch.

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06-18-2013, 04:50 PM
  #665
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Quote:
Originally Posted by stan the caddy View Post
Pens vs. Flyers: an example of a style that doesn't work.

The Kings got hot at the right time and their players actually showed up in the postseason. Sutter didn't all of a sudden make some crazy coaching changes that led to more scoring.
No one is saying to abandon all defense and become Penguins/Flyers.

The Kings added Jeff Carter and started scoring more goals.

Also, Sutter was a midseason replacement, so yes, they did change their style.

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06-18-2013, 05:06 PM
  #666
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It's funny, the canucks want a ramping raging coach with aggression like tortz, and the rangers want a laid back and relaxed coach like AV.

Literally the exact opposite. Because canucks fans have seen the laid back story for years, and the rangers have seen the aggression, raging story for years lol.

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06-18-2013, 05:08 PM
  #667
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Congrats, you guys got a terrific coach. Honestly, every coach has a few shortcomings but on the whole, AV is one of the best in the NHL. He did an excellent job developing guys like Edler, Kesler, Burrows, Raymond, Bieksa etc. and obviously the Twins thrived under his direction. He really developed the majority of the Canucks core. Most successful coach in Canucks history... although I suppose that isn't saying much, but the point stands. He'll be much more pragmatic than Torts and is excellent with the media.

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06-18-2013, 05:23 PM
  #668
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Why are you even arguing with Kwayry? He obviously hasn't seen Rundblad play in the last couple years, maybe ever except for a couple youtube highlights. He said something completely asinine and is being ignorant, let him be.

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Old
06-18-2013, 05:25 PM
  #669
stan the caddy
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Grind Jam Grind View Post
No one is saying to abandon all defense and become Penguins/Flyers.

The Kings added Jeff Carter and started scoring more goals.

Also, Sutter was a midseason replacement, so yes, they did change their style.
Did I say you said to abandon all defense?

Sutter coached 49 of those games and they weren't an up and down the ice offensive team. The funny thing is, neither is Vigneault. He likes grinders, plays favorites, and doesn't promote a ton of scoring.

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06-18-2013, 05:28 PM
  #670
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Originally Posted by NikC View Post
If you have to go to pre 04-05 lockout to make your point into today’s NHL I think your argument is flawed from the start.
You don't have to go back that far - and he didn't. Defense wins championships. There have been maybe two or three teams in the past 15+ years that have won the cup without stellar defense or goaltending. And even with those teams when they lost pieces of their defense in the following years, making them worse in that regard, they crumbled.

Heck - let's look at PP, since that is what you guys were originally talking about. Chicago is in the SCF. They have a playoff PP % that is just 2 percent higher than the Rangers in the playoffs this year. 11.3 %. They certainly seem to have done well so far without a flourishing PP. Boston is ranked 9th among 18 playoff teams in PP %.

Last year both SCF teams were in the bottom half of the playoffs in PP %. New Jersey was 9th and the LA Kings were 12th in PP % in the playoffs. Both below the Rangers that year, and both made it further.

2010-11, Boston won the cup with an 11.4 % PP.

The one recent year that NYR had the best PP % of all teams in the playoffs? 2006-07. Lot of good that did them. Great - good PP, but lacking in a hell of a lot of other areas of the game.

No doubt about it the PP needed to be better this year. Not a good enough reason to fire Torts in my mind though.


Quote:
Originally Posted by NikC View Post
If not for Krieder, we would have been knocked out in round 1. wake up.
I think you're the one who needs to wake up. Kreider scored a grand total of one goal in round 1. And it was on a play entirely made by Stepan. Kreider did a good job of being in the right place at the right time for the pass, but its not like he made some spectacular play to score the goal.

Not to mention that it put the team up 3-1. Without it, the Rangers still would have been leading 2-1 going into the third period of that game. Best case scenario - perhaps they don't play as relaxed as they did in the last minute and don't give up the "no kicking motion" goal in the last minute. Worst case - its tied and going to OT at which point you have no clue what happens in that series.

Kreider played well in general in the playoffs last year, but give me a break with this ****. The team also might not win without Boyle stepping it up. Without Staal's OT goal. Or without Richards' last second goal. Or Hank's performance in rounds 1 and 2. Or any number of other things. All of those players are, however, a part of the team. So, pointing this out is pretty pointless, is it not? Who cares what they would have done with or without a particular player? They had those players. By the way, Kreider was also given a chance to play by the very coach you're bashing. Torts could have opted to go with John Scott, Newb, or some other ****** AHL option in the first place instead of taking what some might have seen as a risk on a complete unknown at the NHL level.

The team got to the ECF. It doesn't matter how they got there. It doesn't matter who contributed. They got there, they got those contributions, and Tortorella was at the helm while it happened. Whether you like it or not, he gets at least some credit for that team success. Shaking your head, plugging your ears, and screaming "NA NA NA NA DIDN'T HAPPEN! NA NA NA NOT LISTENING" doesn't undo it.

Does that, by itself, make him a spectacular coach? No. Just like a mediocre lockout shortened season (which still was far better than the majority we've seen in over a decade) doesn't make him a bad coach. Just like the fact that Kreider had a good stretch during the playoffs last season doesn't automatically entitle him to first or second line minutes this year if he can't cut it yet.


EDIT:

Quote:
Originally Posted by NikC View Post
Killing the clock crap hockey. sit back and lose hockey.
Not to mention that it makes zero sense to me that you can have this be one of your beefs with Torts and look at AV and think "Oh, sounds good." Vancouver fans rode him constantly for what they saw as his strategy to "protect the 0-0 tie."


Last edited by Richter Scale: 06-18-2013 at 05:35 PM.
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Old
06-18-2013, 05:33 PM
  #671
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Because it's not his fault and you'll see that next year. I'll be pleased with another second round exit. The Rangers aren't even the best team in their division.
He couldn't have done a single thing different or better?

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06-18-2013, 05:40 PM
  #672
stan the caddy
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Originally Posted by NHRangerfan View Post
He couldn't have done a single thing different or better?
Did I say he was infallible? All you guys do is try to put words in my mouth. Tortorella's the best Rangers coach I've seen in my lifetime and the players ran him out of town because of a second round playoff exit.

The way some people talk you'd think the Rangers missed the playoffs and had a bottom 5 offense. In reality they were average offensively and a second round exit isn't all that bad considering our history. Actually, it's a pretty good.

They ran him out of town in a strike shortened season for that?

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06-18-2013, 06:09 PM
  #673
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Originally Posted by stan the caddy View Post
Did I say he was infallible? All you guys do is try to put words in my mouth. Tortorella's the best Rangers coach I've seen in my lifetime and the players ran him out of town because of a second round playoff exit.

The way some people talk you'd think the Rangers missed the playoffs and had a bottom 5 offense. In reality they were average offensively and a second round exit isn't all that bad considering our history. Actually, it's a pretty good.

They ran him out of town in a strike shortened season for that?
Quote:
Originally Posted by stan the caddy View Post
Because it's not his fault and you'll see that next year. I'll be pleased with another second round exit. The Rangers aren't even the best team in their division.
Looks like you did.

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06-18-2013, 06:11 PM
  #674
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You don't have to go back that far - and he didn't. Defense wins championships.
2012 Los Angeles Kings (Defensive team)
2011 Boston Bruins (EC) (defensive team)
2010 Chicago Blackhawks (WC) (Offensive team)
2009 Pittsburgh Penguins (EC) (Offensive team)
2008 Detroit Red Wings (WC) (offensive team)
2007 Anaheim Ducks (WC) (offensive team) <-- could be argued that they were a balanced team
2006 Carolina Hurricanes (EC) (offensive team)
2005 - Lock out
2004 Tampa Bay Lightning (EC) (offensive team)

Defense wins championship **** is a myth

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06-18-2013, 06:15 PM
  #675
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Originally Posted by Lucbourdon View Post
2012 Los Angeles Kings (Defensive team)
2011 Boston Bruins (EC) (defensive team)
2010 Chicago Blackhawks (WC) (Offensive team)
2009 Pittsburgh Penguins (EC) (Offensive team)
2008 Detroit Red Wings (WC) (offensive team)
2007 Anaheim Ducks (WC) (offensive team)
2006 Carolina Hurricanes (EC) (offensive team)
2005 - Lock out
2004 Tampa Bay Lightning (EC) (offensive team)

Defense wins championship **** is a myth
10/11 Bruins were 5th in Goals per Game in the regular season, they were also 2nd in GA per game.

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