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Philadelphia Flyers vs. Pittsburgh Penguins

View Poll Results: Which franchise is greater?
Pittsburgh Penguins 21 30.88%
Philadelphia Flyers 47 69.12%
Voters: 68. You may not vote on this poll

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Old
06-15-2013, 08:58 PM
  #1
invictus
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Philadelphia Flyers vs. Pittsburgh Penguins

Which is the greater franchise? It is starting to turn into a good conversation in the other thread. So I thought making a separate to discuss them directly head-to-head would be good.

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06-15-2013, 09:03 PM
  #2
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3 Cups for the Penguins to 2 for the Flyers.
14 Art Rosses for the Pens and 0 for the Flyers.
6 Hart Trophies for the Pens and 4 for the Flyers.
Only 3 Conn Smythe's for the Pens to 4 for the Flyers (2 in a losing cause).

The Richard was only started a bit over a decade ago. I am unsure how many either team would have if we compared going back to the start of the franchises.

The Flyers have been more consistently competitive with 8 Conference Championships and 16 division wins versus 4 Conference Championships and 7 division wins for the Penguins. The Pens also have 1 President's Trophy to 0 for the Flyers.

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06-15-2013, 09:08 PM
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invictus
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35 trips to the playoffs for the Flyers versus 25 for the Penguins. It looks like Philly would have 3 President's Trophies if it was awarded in 74-75, 79-80, and 84-85

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06-15-2013, 09:18 PM
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Mike Farkas
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Fair or unfair, Flyers better longevity/consistency. Penguins higher peaks (and, in turn, more ultimate successes)?

Let me see...Flyers are Bryan Trottier, Penguins are, well, Mario Lemieux...? Or thereabouts...maybe Lemieux is a touch strong...maybe Maurice Richard/Jaromir Jagr...

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06-15-2013, 09:20 PM
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9 Pearson/Lindsays for the Penguins and 2 for the Flyers.
3 Byngs for the Pens and none for the flyers.
2 Vezinas for the Flyers under the current awarding system and 4 Jennings as well. Zero of both for the Penguins, haha.


Last edited by invictus: 06-15-2013 at 09:30 PM. Reason: Penguins just got their 9th Pearson/Lindsay
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06-15-2013, 09:28 PM
  #6
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I agree with your overall assessment, Mike. I am a peak guy, and the Penguins seem to have the better peak.

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06-15-2013, 09:48 PM
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tjcurrie
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.578 winning % for the Flyers (2nd all-time since original 6 I believe)

.500 for Penguins.

There's a reason the Penguins have had guys like Lemieux, Malkin, and Crosby. Sure the Flyers have had a couple seasons of sucking (literally, a couple) but the Pens have had more.

Overall the Flyers have been better on the ice from the jump, a more stable franchise, and likely a broader fan base (kids 10 and under with Crosby jerseys don't count). The only thing the Penguins can really boast that would really stand out is Mario Lemieux. Possibly Jagr. Either way, I don't think having just the one or two players and the one more Cup recently makes them a better franchise.

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06-15-2013, 09:53 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tjcurrie View Post
.578 winning % for the Flyers (2nd all-time since original 6 I believe)

.500 for Penguins.

There's a reason the Penguins have had guys like Lemieux, Malkin, and Crosby. Sure the Flyers have had a couple seasons of sucking (literally, a couple) but the Pens have had more.

Overall the Flyers have been better on the ice from the jump, a more stable franchise, and likely a broader fan base (kids 10 and under with Crosby jerseys don't count). The only thing the Penguins can really boast that would really stand out is Mario Lemieux. Possibly Jagr. Either way, I don't think having just the one or two players and the one more Cup recently makes them a better franchise.
If the Flyers had zero fans, would that take away from their organizational successes and accomplishments?

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06-15-2013, 11:44 PM
  #9
vadim sharifijanov
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maybe what is meant by "greater" isn't the big question here; maybe the operative term is "franchise."

how often were the flyers bad? after the early 70s, at which point you couldn't really call either team a real expansion team anymore, the flyers were only bad a few years in the early 90s, and the one anomalous year where they drafted van riemsdyk. as a franchise, the flyers have had a pretty amazingly consistent run. mini-dynasty in the 70s, arguably the best (or at worst third best) team of the 80s other than the oilers, consistent contender in the lindros era, pretty consistent contender in the post-lindros era. ownership has shown in the last 20 years a willingness to spend, and has shown that it values winning year after year.

contrast to the penguins: bottom out (intentionally?), draft franchise altering player. if "franchise" is the operative term here, as a fan i'd rather be a flyers fan. more stability, almost every year you have a shot, and that team consistently has an identity. it's not always the same, but "philadelphia flyers" generally stands for rugged, heart and soul team with playoff intangibles (from the bullies era to the propp era to the lindros era to primeau, gagne, forsberg, richards, and now giroux).

which is to say, in response to:

Quote:
Originally Posted by invictus View Post
If the Flyers had zero fans, would that take away from their organizational successes and accomplishments?
there's a reason the flyers have their fanbase. they earned it.

to make another player vs. player analogy, the flyers are sakic, the penguins are forsberg. one guy was never the clear cut best player in the world, but you could count on him to almost always be in the conversation. the other guy has been the best without question, but many years you got nothing at all.

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06-16-2013, 12:26 AM
  #10
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tjcurrie View Post
.578 winning % for the Flyers (2nd all-time since original 6 I believe)

.500 for Penguins.

There's a reason the Penguins have had guys like Lemieux, Malkin, and Crosby. Sure the Flyers have had a couple seasons of sucking (literally, a couple) but the Pens have had more.

Overall the Flyers have been better on the ice from the jump, a more stable franchise, and likely a broader fan base (kids 10 and under with Crosby jerseys don't count). The only thing the Penguins can really boast that would really stand out is Mario Lemieux. Possibly Jagr. Either way, I don't think having just the one or two players and the one more Cup recently makes them a better franchise.
It's a tough question to answer because there is consistency and then the peaks and valleys.

I will add though that at no time were the Flyers ever in danger of moving.

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06-16-2013, 12:54 AM
  #11
nik jr
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imo, individual awards are not very important at all when comparing teams.


seasons below .500
flyers: 11
penguins: 21

playoff appearances
flyers: 36
penguins: 28

total regular season record
flyers: 1779-1224-457-94
penguins: 1543-1542-383-86

games above .500 in regular season
flyers: 555
penguins: 1

conference finals
flyers: 16
penguins: 7

finals
flyers: 8
penguins: 4

playoff record
flyers: 210-193
penguins: 157-130


penguins' worst seasons were also worse than flyers' worst seasons.

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06-16-2013, 01:37 AM
  #12
Darth Yoda
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Much information above talks to Philadelphias advantage but it is as they say themselves: "Losers since 75". Their whole fanbase under the age of 45 hav'nt won ONCE, and those would trade those five losses in the final for only one of Pittsburghs three titles. Voted Penguins.

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06-16-2013, 03:30 AM
  #13
Kyle McMahon
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Darth Yoda View Post
Much information above talks to Philadelphias advantage but it is as they say themselves: "Losers since 75". Their whole fanbase under the age of 45 hav'nt won ONCE, and those would trade those five losses in the final for only one of Pittsburghs three titles. Voted Penguins.
I'm not so sure about that. 3-1 in the Final versus 2-6...that's twice as often you got to play for the Stanley Cup. That's worth something IMO. Flyers have competed for the Cup in every full decade they've existed for, and have almost always been amongst the better teams in the league. Penguins have been a non-factor outside of a few years in the 90's and the last few seasons. Personally I'd take all those extra years of strong play over one extra Cup.

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06-16-2013, 03:49 AM
  #14
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Pens have been bad teams for most of the 30+ years I've watched hockey. Yeah, they sucked so bad they got to draft Mario Lemieux and sucked again bad enough to get Crosby.

The Flyers have been strong competitors each decade. In the 1970's-1980's you couldn't give away Pens tickets but the Flyers went to the Stanley Cup Finals multiple times and were a well-respected club.

16 divisional championships for the Philadelphia Flyers
7 divisional championships for the Pittsburgh Penguins

The Philly franchise is one of the winningest franchises the NHL has ever seen (only the Habs have a higher points % in the NHL).

So, no surprise, Philadelphia has built a loyal fan base with no history of departure threats (unlike past troubles in Pittsburgh). It's a solid organization and has been since its inception (unlike the rollercoaster in Pitts).

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06-16-2013, 07:48 AM
  #15
reckoning
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Flyers have a huge edge in head-to-head play between the teams: 142-84-30-8

Surprisingly, they've only met in the playoffs six times. Philadelphia won four of those series.

In the 45 seasons they've been in the league, Philadelphia finished higher in the standings 28 times, Pittsburgh 14 times (three times they were tied).

In those same 45 seasons, Philadelphia advanced further in the playoffs 28 times, Pittsburgh 12 times; five times they were equal.


Yes, Pittsburgh has the edge in Cup-counting (by one). But does that one single extra Cup really wipe out everything else? Not in my books. If the edge in Cups was 6-2 or 7-2 then I could see it, but 3-2 isn't enough to override Philadelphia being far better in every other category.


Last edited by reckoning: 06-16-2013 at 07:54 AM.
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06-16-2013, 09:20 AM
  #16
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Originally Posted by reckoning View Post

Yes, Pittsburgh has the edge in Cup-counting (by one). But does that one single extra Cup really wipe out everything else? Not in my books. If the edge in Cups was 6-2 or 7-2 then I could see it, but 3-2 isn't enough to override Philadelphia being far better in every other category.
Yeah but they hav'nt gotten a Cup parade for 38 years!

Seventies: Flyers fans were almost constantly excited, they get a 2nd place finish in the point race. Pens fans not so much although some of those teams really was'nt SO bad, 8th place finsh.

Eighties: Flyers win by a 3rd place finish behind Gretzky and Lemieux. Penguins did get the second coming of christ during the later half and get a 6th place finish.

Nineties: Penguins win with a 2nd place finish. Flyers fans had some excitement though, they finish 4th.

New Millennium: Flyers have been almost constantly in some kind of contention and i'll give them a 3rd place finsh. The Penguins has a Cup and Malkin and Crosby to lay our dreams on, but becouse of 2002-06 we get a 3rd place finish.

Total:

Pens: 2, 3, 6, 8
Flyers: 2, 3, 3, 4

However, these results needs to be weighed becouse a majority of Flyers fans do not remember a cup riot. 1x, 2x, 3x and 4x value gives us these scoring finishes:

Pens:--2, 2, 2, 3, 3, 3, 3, 6, 6, 8
Flyers: 2, 3, 3, 3, 3, 3, 3, 4, 4, 4

I personally believe that Pittsburghs PEAK longivety when considering the Human Memory Loss since the seventies, and totally new fans as i mentioned, at least makes it a Wash.

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06-16-2013, 09:42 AM
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tjcurrie
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Quote:
Originally Posted by invictus View Post
If the Flyers had zero fans, would that take away from their organizational successes and accomplishments?
Like Vadim said, there's a reason they have the fan base they do. They built a foundation from the start and have done everything right to build on it. They've been stable and successful their entire existence.

If they had zero fans, there'd probably be a reason for that and they probably wouldn't be around anymore so all the success and accomplishments likely wouldn't exist. Not to the extent that it does.

Hardyvan - You could argue that the Penguins have had the higher peaks, but in reality it's 3 Cups to 2 if you're looking at true peaks. Other than that they've both had some great seasons where they didn't win it all. Like I said the only thing that adds that extra shine to the Penguins is Lemieux. Doesn't necessarily make them better.

I know you're just offering different sides to the argument.

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06-16-2013, 09:55 AM
  #18
tjcurrie
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Quote:
Originally Posted by nik jr View Post
imo, individual awards are not very important at all when comparing teams.


seasons below .500
flyers: 11
penguins: 21

playoff appearances
flyers: 36
penguins: 28

total regular season record
flyers: 1779-1224-457-94
penguins: 1543-1542-383-86

games above .500 in regular season
flyers: 555
penguins: 1

conference finals
flyers: 16
penguins: 7

finals
flyers: 8
penguins: 4

playoff record
flyers: 210-193
penguins: 157-130


penguins' worst seasons were also worse than flyers' worst seasons.
This pretty much says it all. It's pretty easy. The only thing the Penguins have is the one recent Cup. Not enough to wash all of that.

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06-16-2013, 10:41 AM
  #19
reckoning
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Darth Yoda View Post
Yeah but they hav'nt gotten a Cup parade for 38 years!

Seventies: Flyers fans were almost constantly excited, they get a 2nd place finish in the point race. Pens fans not so much although some of those teams really was'nt SO bad, 8th place finsh.

Eighties: Flyers win by a 3rd place finish behind Gretzky and Lemieux. Penguins did get the second coming of christ during the later half and get a 6th place finish.

Nineties: Penguins win with a 2nd place finish. Flyers fans had some excitement though, they finish 4th.

New Millennium: Flyers have been almost constantly in some kind of contention and i'll give them a 3rd place finsh. The Penguins has a Cup and Malkin and Crosby to lay our dreams on, but becouse of 2002-06 we get a 3rd place finish.

Total:

Pens: 2, 3, 6, 8
Flyers: 2, 3, 3, 4

However, these results needs to be weighed becouse a majority of Flyers fans do not remember a cup riot. 1x, 2x, 3x and 4x value gives us these scoring finishes:

Pens:--2, 2, 2, 3, 3, 3, 3, 6, 6, 8
Flyers: 2, 3, 3, 3, 3, 3, 3, 4, 4, 4

I personally believe that Pittsburghs PEAK longivety when considering the Human Memory Loss since the seventies, and totally new fans as i mentioned, at least makes it a Wash.
What difference does it make when the Cup wins happened? Success 30 or 40 years ago is just as valid as success today. I don't understand this idea of giving extra weight to the current era just because it's a more recent fresher memory.

For example, Montreal hasn't won a Cup (or had much success at all) since 1993. So any fans in their mid-20s or younger have no memories of the franchises glory years. Does this mean we should be rating Carolina or Tampa ahead of them?

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06-16-2013, 11:15 AM
  #20
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Quote:
Originally Posted by invictus View Post
3 Cups for the Penguins to 2 for the Flyers.
14 Art Rosses for the Pens and 0 for the Flyers.
6 Hart Trophies for the Pens and 4 for the Flyers.
Only 3 Conn Smythe's for the Pens to 4 for the Flyers (2 in a losing cause).

The Richard was only started a bit over a decade ago. I am unsure how many either team would have if we compared going back to the start of the franchises.

The Flyers have been more consistently competitive with 8 Conference Championships and 16 division wins versus 4 Conference Championships and 7 division wins for the Penguins. The Pens also have 1 President's Trophy to 0 for the Flyers.
Quote:
35 trips to the playoffs for the Flyers versus 25 for the Penguins. It looks like Philly would have 3 President's Trophies if it was awarded in 74-75, 79-80, and 84-85
Quote:
9 Pearson/Lindsays for the Penguins and 2 for the Flyers.
3 Byngs for the Pens and none for the flyers.
2 Vezinas for the Flyers under the current awarding system and 4 Jennings as well. Zero of both for the Penguins, haha.
I could argue that, in being consistently competitive, the Flyers were rarely in a position to draft a player with the high end skill-set of an Art Ross winner, or a Rocket Richard winner. Similarly, by consistently appearing in the post-season, the franchise put its players in a position to win those Conn Smythe trophies. So, what it all comes down to are regular season success and post-season success. Just my $0.02

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06-16-2013, 12:33 PM
  #21
Darth Yoda
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Quote:
Originally Posted by reckoning View Post
What difference does it make when the Cup wins happened? Success 30 or 40 years ago is just as valid as success today. I don't understand this idea of giving extra weight to the current era just because it's a more recent fresher memory.

For example, Montreal hasn't won a Cup (or had much success at all) since 1993. So any fans in their mid-20s or younger have no memories of the franchises glory years. Does this mean we should be rating Carolina or Tampa ahead of them?
Yes, by history in the making. For sure the current team management likes to tell all their fans of how great they once where, when there were six teams and and no draft.
I'm not trying to deny that they have 24 cups or whatever, but unfortunately todays fans can only cheer for that for so long. A Franchise, especially in the professional sports world, ARE their fans.

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06-16-2013, 12:54 PM
  #22
vadim sharifijanov
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out of curiosity, i wanted to see how many HHOFers each franchise had:

pittsburgh

1. boivin
2. bathgate
3. horton
4. lemieux
5. coffey
6. recchi
7. jagr
8. trottier
9. murphy
10. mullen
11. francis
12. robitaille
13. crosby*
14. malkin*
15. iginla*
+ maybe barrasso


philadelphia

1. stanley
2. clarke
3. barber
4. sittler
5. howe
6. recchi*
7. hawerchuk
8. coffey
9. oates
10. forsberg*
11. pronger*
12. jagr*
+ probably lindros, + maybe leclair


would be interesting to also track down all of the HOVG guys on both teams: macleish, leach, propp, kerr, tocchet, brind'amour, desjardins, stevens, kovalev, gonchar, etc.

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06-16-2013, 01:03 PM
  #23
invictus
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Clown Baby View Post
I could argue that, in being consistently competitive, the Flyers were rarely in a position to draft a player with the high end skill-set of an Art Ross winner, or a Rocket Richard winner. Similarly, by consistently appearing in the post-season, the franchise put its players in a position to win those Conn Smythe trophies. So, what it all comes down to are regular season success and post-season success. Just my $0.02
That is a pretty fair point. It did surprise me to see the relative lack of hardware for the Flyers, though, in terms of regular season accolades.

The more I think on it, the more I wish I had included a third option in the poll to say they are more or less equal in historic stature. They seem to be complementary to each other in terms of the "strengths" of ones are matched in the "weakness" of the other (ie, the Flyers with the consistency of playoff berths/division titles versus the Penguins richer tapestry of award winners).

This could be a fun topic to revisit in another ten seasons or so.

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06-16-2013, 01:45 PM
  #24
tjcurrie
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Quote:
Originally Posted by vadim sharifijanov View Post
out of curiosity, i wanted to see how many HHOFers each franchise had:

pittsburgh

1. boivin
2. bathgate
3. horton
4. lemieux
5. coffey
6. recchi
7. jagr
8. trottier
9. murphy
10. mullen
11. francis
12. robitaille
13. crosby*
14. malkin*
15. iginla*
+ maybe barrasso


philadelphia

1. stanley
2. clarke
3. barber
4. sittler
5. howe
6. recchi*
7. hawerchuk
8. coffey
9. oates
10. forsberg*
11. pronger*
12. jagr*
+ probably lindros, + maybe leclair


would be interesting to also track down all of the HOVG guys on both teams: macleish, leach, propp, kerr, tocchet, brind'amour, desjardins, stevens, kovalev, gonchar, etc.
I know you're just doing it for fun, but if we were to seriously add it to the equation I think there should be some sort of criteria. For example, as a Stars fan I'm not going to include Jagr on my team's all-time list. I don't think that's a true credit to the franchise.

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06-16-2013, 01:59 PM
  #25
invictus
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Originally Posted by tjcurrie View Post
I know you're just doing it for fun, but if we were to seriously add it to the equation I think there should be some sort of criteria. For example, as a Stars fan I'm not going to include Jagr on my team's all-time list. I don't think that's a true credit to the franchise.
I agree. No way anyone thinks of Robitaille as a Penguin. Regardless of how ******** so many of my fellow Pens fans are about Jagr, I think most neutral observers would consider him a Penguin. etc...

I think the criteria for these guys should be either that they are most recognizable to a neutral observer as being a Penguin/Flyer or made substantial contributions to a Finals run. Does that seem fair?

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