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06-16-2013, 10:54 PM
  #76
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Weiss is what Babcock likes to call - an "everyday'er".

Flip is pretty soft and rarely do his cute moves and passes pay off. Needs to be top 6 player to be contributing.

Weiss could slide up and down the line up and at least bring a presence.

The stats are close enough, but if we are saying no to Weiss for less dollars, what are we doing? We want guys who we can rely on a shift-to-shift basis. We just sat through watching a 48 game regular season of turnovers and bad decisions, relying on a 4 game push to make the playoffs, and we don't want Weiss?

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06-17-2013, 01:44 AM
  #77
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Originally Posted by Eternal Sunshine View Post
Weiss is what Babcock likes to call - an "everyday'er".

Flip is pretty soft and rarely do his cute moves and passes pay off. Needs to be top 6 player to be contributing.

Weiss could slide up and down the line up and at least bring a presence.

The stats are close enough, but if we are saying no to Weiss for less dollars, what are we doing? We want guys who we can rely on a shift-to-shift basis. We just sat through watching a 48 game regular season of turnovers and bad decisions, relying on a 4 game push to make the playoffs, and we don't want Weiss?
Same group of fans that felt (uh oh!) Mikael Samuelsson legitimately had more to offer the 2012-13 (and beyond) Wings than Jiri Hudler.

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06-17-2013, 02:21 AM
  #78
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Originally Posted by eva unit zero View Post
Jiri Hudler.

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06-17-2013, 05:33 AM
  #79
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Originally Posted by Eternal Sunshine View Post
The stats are close enough, but if we are saying no to Weiss for less dollars, what are we doing? We want guys who we can rely on a shift-to-shift basis. We just sat through watching a 48 game regular season of turnovers and bad decisions, relying on a 4 game push to make the playoffs, and we don't want Weiss?
Yes, I see the cap value in here. Filppula wants to get overpayment, but Weiss could be hired in "only" with market value. That's a better deal for a slightly better player.

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06-17-2013, 07:10 AM
  #80
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Originally Posted by Flowah View Post
Flipper hasn't been a third liner in years now. Hardly a valid talking point.
valid enough when comparing their respective career points tally when you consider that he's outperformed weiss in the last two seasons. filppula's career taken as a whole he's been a middle 6 player, whereas weiss has been a top 6 player. that's all i'm saying.

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06-17-2013, 07:45 AM
  #81
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06-17-2013, 08:00 AM
  #82
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Filppula's rights for Weiss's rights makes too much sense to happen.

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06-17-2013, 08:40 AM
  #83
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I'd support a Filippula for Weiss swap, and I still really think Filppula will regain his 2011-2012 form. But the fact is that Filppula hasn't really proved to be a reliable no. 2 center, even though I think he can still be a very good top-6 winger.

It more of a money thing with Filppula. If he wants to get paid big bucks, then thanks for the memories! Weiss would be a good fit.

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06-17-2013, 10:25 AM
  #84
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Originally Posted by eva unit zero View Post
Same group of fans that felt (uh oh!) Mikael Samuelsson legitimately had more to offer the 2012-13 (and beyond) Wings than Jiri Hudler.
You keep coming up with this empty argument. As you've been told time and time again, it has no merit whatsoever. Hudler got $4m for four years. Samuelsson got $3m for two. Hudler was healthy almost the entire season. Samuelsson had a string of injuries throughout it. In sum, Samuelsson was had for less money over a period half as long, and he never got to display what he might have offered.

Enough with the Hudler slappiness. He's gone and he's almost certainly not coming back.

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06-17-2013, 10:27 AM
  #85
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Originally Posted by Chris 84 View Post
valid enough when comparing their respective career points tally when you consider that he's outperformed weiss in the last two seasons. filppula's career taken as a whole he's been a middle 6 player, whereas weiss has been a top 6 player. that's all i'm saying.
Not valid enough, when you consider that Weiss played every game this season injured and then was knocked out for good by a wrist injury, and when you consider that Filppula outscored Weiss by only eight points in 2011-2012 while Weiss was playing on a terrible team and Filppula was with Zetterberg the entire season.

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06-17-2013, 10:36 AM
  #86
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Eternal Sunshine View Post
Weiss is what Babcock likes to call - an "everyday'er".

Flip is pretty soft and rarely do his cute moves and passes pay off. Needs to be top 6 player to be contributing.

Weiss could slide up and down the line up and at least bring a presence.

The stats are close enough, but if we are saying no to Weiss for less dollars, what are we doing? We want guys who we can rely on a shift-to-shift basis. We just sat through watching a 48 game regular season of turnovers and bad decisions, relying on a 4 game push to make the playoffs, and we don't want Weiss?
Weiss is actually SOFTER than Filppula, and we have enough centers, we need to bring in some legitimate wingers to play with them.

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06-17-2013, 10:55 AM
  #87
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I would try hard to resign Flip, pay him what he deserves and move on. Weiss isn't guaranteed to come and we will be on an island if we get stuck again in a Suter / Parise "guarantee".

I only go after Weiss after we fail to sign Flip. I agree that we need to focus on getting men out on our Wings. We have a great spread of Centers and while it's always nice to upgrade I think it's our least weak position.

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06-17-2013, 11:47 AM
  #88
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Crymson View Post
You keep coming up with this empty argument. As you've been told time and time again, it has no merit whatsoever. Hudler got $4m for four years. Samuelsson got $3m for two. Hudler was healthy almost the entire season. Samuelsson had a string of injuries throughout it. In sum, Samuelsson was had for less money over a period half as long, and he never got to display what he might have offered.

Enough with the Hudler slappiness. He's gone and he's almost certainly not coming back.
to be fair though, 36 year olds are expected to have more injury troubles so it was easy to tell and predict that was a solid possibility to happen with sammy

you can never have a solid arguement if people only look at that good moves/draft picks and never the bad, it always has to be both

bringing in sammy was a bad decision made worse by the fact he is old, more likely to become injured and not play a full season and did in fact do just that and once healthy was relegated to the press box to suggest more convincingly that his acquistion was a mistake from the get-go

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06-17-2013, 12:05 PM
  #89
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Originally Posted by Guru Meditation View Post
How exactly did you come to the conclusion that Jarnkrok struggled at the AHL level?

1. He played 9 games. Most players take longer than 9 games to adjust to North American hockey.

2. He was actually pretty damn good in those 9 games. He was probably the best center on the team during those 9 games.

It makes me wonder if you watched him play.
Get a paper bag and start breathing into the bag. Nice, deep breaths. Feeling better? My main point is that Jarnkrok could use a full season in Grand Rapids to get more familiar with the smaller ice surface and NA game.

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06-17-2013, 12:23 PM
  #90
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Originally Posted by Frk It View Post
Okay, I can see we're going in circles a little here.

Let me ask you a different question.

Let's say we went with your proposed 2nd line (Franzen, Sheahan, Jurco) from opening night next year to the end of the season.

What kind of numbers do you think they would put up? How do you think they would fare?
I don't pretend to have crystal ball. Mule has done well as a center so he can help if necessary. Sheahan would have a Fil-like role of being the defensive stopper. Jurco is the scorer. I think they'd present all sorts of problems with their size. Sheahan and Jurco can skate. We don't really do trades or sign UFAs. If we're going to compete for Cups it will be because of our prospects.

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06-17-2013, 12:35 PM
  #91
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Originally Posted by Chris 84 View Post
weiss has generally been a #1C
filppula has often been a 3rd liner and rarely if ever a top line PP guy. they've had different roles for their teams and filppula's numbers are going to suffer for that. last 2 years he has outperformed weiss though, statistically.
This is not true at all. There have been plenty of opportunities for Flip to produce as a Top 2 center over the past several years due to Z or Datsyuk being out of the lineup and he has under-whelmed every single time. The Wings have been asking Flip to take command and produce for years now. You think they'd be willing to let him walk this summer if they hadn't been and he had lived up to their expectations? Not a chance.

Unfortunately, I'd rather not have another 5'10" 180 lbs forward brought on to this team. We've got plenty of those. The skill level is fine. Need size. Need grit.

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06-17-2013, 12:57 PM
  #92
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Originally Posted by Zetterberg4Captain View Post
to be fair though, 36 year olds are expected to have more injury troubles
This is not exactly true. In reality, injury proneness does not grow significantly at that age if you take care of yourself. But the recovery time when the injury happens will be a lot longer as an older player.

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06-17-2013, 01:20 PM
  #93
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Originally Posted by Crymson View Post
Not valid enough, when you consider that Weiss played every game this season injured and then was knocked out for good by a wrist injury, and when you consider that Filppula outscored Weiss by only eight points in 2011-2012 while Weiss was playing on a terrible team and Filppula was with Zetterberg the entire season.
Filppula out-scored and out-produced Weiss while playing on a sprained MCL this season. Weiss looks like he is on the decline at just 30 years old. Probably from having a small body that just can't handle the NHL physicality.

Holland recently signed an injury riddled Samuelsson, now you want him to sign a small injury prone Weiss who is clearly on the decline? No thanks!

Just pay Filppula $5 million and move on. The grass "isn't" greener on the other side of the fence despite all the hope and dreams and magical fairy dust you may have. Filppula is younger, bigger and the better point producer who already knows the DRWs system. The choice (if there even is a choice) is obvious.

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06-17-2013, 01:30 PM
  #94
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Originally Posted by HTT3 View Post
Just pay Filppula $5 million and move on. The grass "isn't" greener on the other side of the fence despite all the hope and dreams and magical fairy dust you may have. Filppula is younger, bigger and the better point producer who already knows the DRWs system. The choice (if there even is a choice) is obvious.
Check their stats, dude. In NO WAY is Filppula consistently a better point producer than Weiss. And frankly, their size difference is negligible.

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06-17-2013, 01:44 PM
  #95
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Originally Posted by SoupNazi View Post
Check their stats, dude. In NO WAY is Filppula consistently a better point producer than Weiss. And frankly, their size difference is negligible.
Want me to check Filppula's stats 3, 4, 6 years ago when he was a 3rd liner and got absolutely no PP time?

The past 2 years, which matters the most, Filppula has been the better points producer. Weiss scored 9 less points than Filppula at the same age. This season, Weiss was on pace for what 3 goals and a -50? Haha, yeah Jonathan Cheechoo was pretty good like 6 years ago, maybe he is still available. LOL!

Yeah, no thanks. I'll take Filppula.

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06-17-2013, 01:54 PM
  #96
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Originally Posted by HTT3 View Post
Want me to check Filppula's stats 3, 4, 6 years ago when he was a 3rd liner and got absolutely no PP time?

The past 2 years, which matters the most, Filppula has been the better points producer. Weiss scored 9 less points than Filppula at the same age. This season, Weiss was on pace for what 3 goals and a -50? Haha, yeah Jonathan Cheechoo was pretty good like 6 years ago, maybe he is still available. LOL!

Yeah, no thanks. I'll take Filppula.
Player 1: '07-'08, 78 games, 36 points, 16:57 TOI
Player 2: '07-'08, 74 games, 42 points, 17:36 TOI

Guess which is which?

The fact of the matter is that Weiss has CONSISTENTLY outperformed Filppula, who had a fluke of a year in 2011-12.

Give me Weiss at $4 million over Filppula at $5 any day of the week.

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06-17-2013, 02:00 PM
  #97
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Originally Posted by HTT3 View Post
Want me to check Filppula's stats 3, 4, 6 years ago when he was a 3rd liner and got absolutely no PP time?

The past 2 years, which matters the most, Filppula has been the better points producer. Weiss scored 9 less points than Filppula at the same age. This season, Weiss was on pace for what 3 goals and a -50? Haha, yeah Jonathan Cheechoo was pretty good like 6 years ago, maybe he is still available. LOL!

Yeah, no thanks. I'll take Filppula.
Filppula has been playing 15+ minutes a game since the 2007-2008 season. He also has been getting over 2 minutes of PP time a game for the past 4 years. So he hasn't been a third liner for quite some time. Why can't you just admit that Weiss has a better track record, and has been producing points against other teams best defenseman, and he was not on a line with anyone close to Zetterberg's caliber.

You consistently bring up that Filppula outproduced Weiss the past two seasons. Weiss played 17 games, Filppula played 41, so I'm glad that Filppula outproduced someone who played less then half of the amount of games. Weiss is a 4 time 20 goal scorer, Fil has one 20 goal season. Weiss has had 48 points or more 5 times in his career, Fil has had 2 seasons of 40 or more points. The facts don't lie, Weiss is the better player.

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06-17-2013, 02:01 PM
  #98
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Originally Posted by SoupNazi View Post
Player 1: '07-'08, 78 games, 36 points, 16:57 TOI
Player 2: '07-'08, 74 games, 42 points, 17:36 TOI

Guess which is which?

The fact of the matter is that Weiss has CONSISTENTLY outperformed Filppula, who had a fluke of a year in 2011-12.

Give me Weiss at $4 million over Filppula at $5 any day of the week.
Why would Weiss accept 4 million? Would you take Weiss at 5.5 million over Filppula at 4.5 million?

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06-17-2013, 02:03 PM
  #99
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Originally Posted by HTT3 View Post
Want me to check Filppula's stats 3, 4, 6 years ago when he was a 3rd liner and got absolutely no PP time?

The past 2 years, which matters the most, Filppula has been the better points producer. Weiss scored 9 less points than Filppula at the same age. This season, Weiss was on pace for what 3 goals and a -50? Haha, yeah Jonathan Cheechoo was pretty good like 6 years ago, maybe he is still available. LOL!

Yeah, no thanks. I'll take Filppula.
Filppula has been 2nd line C long time and has gotten pp time, too consistently.

Yeah, Weiss had bad season, he shouldn't have played a game with that wrist.

He is not 'clearly' on decline, though it's possible that age has somewhat caught up with him. This year was all on that wrist, not much to do with decline.

Weiss plays better D and can somewhat carry his own line, doubt Flip could.

Detroit has been better than Florida basically every year Flip and Weiss have played on those teams. Is it really surprise that Flip has it easier?

Besides this injury-riddled season, Flip hasn't been better than Weiss on any year except last year. But Flip had arguably better coach, linemates and support group. And Weiss didn't completely disappear when postseason started.

And for what it's worth, some statistics indicate heavily that Flip's last year was career tear for him. Many numbers where much higher than they have ever been for him; basically superstar level. highly unlikely that he is going to get there again/keep it up at wrong side of 30. It's possible but I wouldn't count on it.

I'm not as high on Weiss as some others here but he is to me, better than Flip.


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06-17-2013, 02:04 PM
  #100
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Originally Posted by MTU hockey View Post
Filppula has been playing 15+ minutes a game and getting close to a minute of PP time per game since the 2007-2008 season. So he hasn't been a third liner for quite some time. Why can't you just admit that Weiss has a better track record, and has been producing points against other teams best defenseman, and he was not on a line with anyone close to Zetterberg's caliber.

You consistently bring up that Filppula outproduced Weiss the past two seasons. Weiss played 17 games, Filppula played 41, so I'm glad that Filppula outproduced someone who played less then half of the amount of games. Weiss is a 4 time 20 goal scorer, Fil has one 20 goal season. Weiss has had 48 points or more 5 times in his career, Fil has had 2 seasons of 40 or more points. The facts don't lie, Weiss is the better player.
Weiss was also playing the entire season with a badly damaged wrist trying to guy through it until it just became clear he couldn't play like himself. Using this past season as an indicator on what Weiss a former top 5 pick brings to the table is badly misguided. We are not saying he is a superstar, simply that he has outproduced Filppula virtually their entire careers and done so with less surrounding talent. This borders on AINEC situation really, but I do think Filppula has potential it is just one I don't see him ever reaching consistently in Detroit. Filppula needs to be taken out of his comfort zone, he needs to get a new message, being allowed to skate into the corner and pull up is something we seem to have allowed and he has become stagnant as an offensive producer here.

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