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Old
06-17-2013, 02:04 PM
  #101
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12. Vancouver Canucks GM Mike Gillis has a saying: "You better draft centres because it's impossible to get them." Well, it goes something like that. I don't have it written down, but he's said it before. One centre Nill is eyeing is Stephen Weiss, who earned $4.1 million last season ($3.1 million salary-cap hit). He's probably going to come in around one-and-a-half times that or close to it. The Panthers are taking one final run at this.

13. The Stars, Detroit Red Wings and Toronto Maple Leafs have contacted Panthers GM Dale Tallon about getting Weiss' negotiating rights should he fail to re-sign him. After Hotstove Tonight, another source pointed to New Jersey as a possible destination since Devils head coach Peter DeBoer coached Weiss in Florida.
From Friedman

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06-17-2013, 02:11 PM
  #102
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Originally Posted by HTT3 View Post
Just pay Filppula $5 million and move on.
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I wouldn't give Weiss over $3 million, Filppula is worth $4.5 to $5.0 million easily.
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Considering there is nobody in the FA market better, yes... re-sign Filppula.
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Well, I don't run a pro sports franchise. I willing to wager nobody on this forum does. My mentality is if you want to waste $5+ million on a FA (Horton, Clarkson, or whoever), then waste it on Filppula with a short contract.
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I would just throw $5+ million Filppula's way and keep him.

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No contest, give Filppula $5 million if he wants it. If Weiss takes $3 million, I would consider it. But I'll take Flip for $5 million over Weiss @ anything over $3 million.
Soooooooooo, what you're saying (and mind you, I don't want to be accused of putting words in your mouth), is that you'd give Filppula $5M. I'm pretty sure that's an accurate statement on your position.

Do you think Flip is actually a $5M player in the current landscape of the NHL, or would you rather KH just spend his money on the known vs the less known? I am curious about that, as I think the majority of forwards with $5M+ cap hits are counted on to anchor their lines or be top line guys (definitely some exceptions to that- Horcoff comes to mind). IMO, Flip is far from that type of player.

Follow up question: any chance you'd change your username to $5M for Flip? Or, since you like abbreviations, go with $5FF?

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06-17-2013, 02:20 PM
  #103
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Originally Posted by SoupNazi View Post
Player 1: '07-'08, 78 games, 36 points, 16:57 TOI
Player 2: '07-'08, 74 games, 42 points, 17:36 TOI

Guess which is which?

The fact of the matter is that Weiss has CONSISTENTLY outperformed Filppula, who had a fluke of a year in 2011-12.

Give me Weiss at $4 million over Filppula at $5 any day of the week.
You're comparing stats from 7 years ago, the same year a 26 year old Jonathan Cheechoo scored 23 goals in only 69 games. Wonder what he's up to?

The fact of the matter is, Weiss scored 9 less points than Filppula when Flip was a year younger and finally starting to get consistent top 6 minutes. This year Filppula was playing on a recovering sprained MCL and still out-performed Weiss (who was also playing on an injury).

The 2012 season taught us that Filppula, when healthy, is the better player and point producer. Now you can bring up stats from 12 years ago if you like, but Weiss appears to be on his way down.

I'll take the younger, bigger, and better point producer the past 2 years over the small guy who's body can't handle the NHL. May as well just re-sign Dan Cleary for much cheaper and call him our "Weiss" who plays wing.

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06-17-2013, 02:29 PM
  #104
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Originally Posted by SoupNazi View Post
Check their stats, dude. In NO WAY is Filppula consistently a better point producer than Weiss. And frankly, their size difference is negligible.
The question is, why is our management interested in Weiss, rather than re-signing Filppula?

Why this management team with the best long-term success are thinking this way? And why is another guy from this Red Wings management now working at Dallas interested in this same guy?

Filppula is a ~4M player, Weiss is a ~5M player.

If you could get Weiss under his market value, why in hell should they try to sign Filppula with more money than his real value is?

It's like a stock market. Red Wings management tries to find a better rising stock cheper rather than investing your cap space to a falling stock or more expensive stable stock.

Simple as that.

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06-17-2013, 02:31 PM
  #105
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You're comparing stats from 7 years ago, the same year a 26 year old Jonathan Cheechoo scored 23 goals in only 69 games. Wonder what he's up to?

The fact of the matter is, Weiss scored 9 less points than Filppula when Flip was a year younger and finally starting to get consistent top 6 minutes. This year Filppula was playing on a recovering sprained MCL and still out-performed Weiss (who was also playing on an injury).

The 2012 season taught us that Filppula, when healthy, is the better player and point producer. Now you can bring up stats from 12 years ago if you like, but Weiss appears to be on his way down.

I'll take the younger, bigger, and better point producer the past 2 years over the small guy who's body can't handle the NHL. May as well just re-sign Dan Cleary for much cheaper and call him our "Weiss" who plays wing.
Wait, you're saying it is unfair to look at Weiss' entire career and say he is better than Flip, yet Flip's ONE season where he outproduced Weiss PROVES that Flip is the better player AND point producer. Seriously?

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06-17-2013, 02:32 PM
  #106
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Soooooooooo, what you're saying (and mind you, I don't want to be accused of putting words in your mouth), is that you'd give Filppula $5M. I'm pretty sure that's an accurate statement on your position.

Do you think Flip is actually a $5M player in the current landscape of the NHL, or would you rather KH just spend his money on the known vs the less known? I am curious about that, as I think the majority of forwards with $5M+ cap hits are counted on to anchor their lines or be top line guys (definitely some exceptions to that- Horcoff comes to mind). IMO, Flip is far from that type of player.

Follow up question: any chance you'd change your username to $5M for Flip? Or, since you like abbreviations, go with $5FF?
Do I think Filppula is a $5 million dollar player? No. And I also don't think Parise is a $7.5 million dollar player, Malkin isn't a $9 million dollar player, Brad Richards isn't a $6.5 million dollar player, Hudler isn't a.... Shall I keep going?

The problem is, all FA (or soon to be FA) are getting paid more than they are worth.
Weiss and Horton are viewed at getting $6+ million each per year. Clarkson and Filppula will get over $5.5 million. So using the "going" rate in the rediculous FA overpaying going on, Holland will need to overpay to get talent or play the kids (and a bunch of fringe bottom 6 plugs in the top 6). Those are the only two options. So, looking at the going rate on Centers (and wingers), Filppula at $5 million is a bargain.

Hope this helps you understand how NHL economics work. You should check out a cool site called capgeek.com. I can also direct you to other resources to help teach you good info. Shoot me a PM if you need anything else, I'm here for you.

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06-17-2013, 02:33 PM
  #107
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Originally Posted by HTT3 View Post
You're comparing stats from 7 years ago, the same year a 26 year old Jonathan Cheechoo scored 23 goals in only 69 games. Wonder what he's up to?

The fact of the matter is, Weiss scored 9 less points than Filppula when Flip was a year younger and finally starting to get consistent top 6 minutes. This year Filppula was playing on a recovering sprained MCL and still out-performed Weiss (who was also playing on an injury).

The 2012 season taught us that Filppula, when healthy, is the better player and point producer. Now you can bring up stats from 12 years ago if you like, but Weiss appears to be on his way down.

I'll take the younger, bigger, and better point producer the past 2 years over the small guy who's body can't handle the NHL. May as well just re-sign Dan Cleary for much cheaper and call him our "Weiss" who plays wing.
Have you actually ever watched Weiss play?

He actually plays in the center of the ice and drives the net. A wrist injury so debilitating that you actually have to have surgery that shelves you for four months is a bigger deal.

5'11 192lbs versus 6'0" 194 lbs is negligible and considering how each chooses to play the game it tilts towards Weiss. He plays a heavier more competitive game.

Weiss was playing with the same injury many of us credit with having Datsyuk suffer his worst post-season post-lockout. An MCL sprain explains the first two weeks of Filppula's season, although he was medically cleared and he did have shoulder problems as well.

Filppula outproduced Weiss two years ago on one of the best even strength lines in hockey, with two guys that put up impressive point totals and his highest ever shooting percentage. Not the same thing Weiss was dealing with, and to trail by only 9 points given all that is actually more impressive. There is no true debate here on who has been a more productive pro on offense, and Weiss has done it as the guy you target to shutdown on that line. He also does it in a more consistently threatening way, in terms of playing in the middle of the ice and driving offense.

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06-17-2013, 02:35 PM
  #108
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Wait, you're saying it is unfair to look at Weiss' entire career and say he is better than Flip, yet Flip's ONE season where he outproduced Weiss PROVES that Flip is the better player AND point producer. Seriously?
well those are typically the same type of people who would have said last summer ovechkin was equal to filppula based on you know, one year worth of stats as both were cleary just 60pt players

what a joke

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06-17-2013, 02:38 PM
  #109
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Originally Posted by The Zetterberg Era View Post
HFilppula outproduced Weiss two years ago on one of the best even strength lines in hockey, with two guys that put up impressive point totals and his highest ever shooting percentage. Not the same thing Weiss was dealing with, and to trail by only 9 points given all that is actually more impressive. There is no true debate here on who has been a more productive pro on offense, and Weiss has done it as the guy you target to shutdown on that line. He also does it in a more consistently threatening way, in terms of playing in the middle of the ice and driving offense.
I cropped last season from both, because those injuries that affected on both guys play. Also cropped off their rookie seasons.

Weiss (6 seasons)
462 games
116 goals (0.251 per game) 13% more than Filppula's average
201 assists (0.435 per game) 18% more than Filppula's average
317 points (0.686 per game) 16% more than Filppula's average

Filppula (5 seasons)
365 games
81 goals (0.222 per game)
135 assists (0.370 per game)
216 points (0.592 per game)

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06-17-2013, 02:38 PM
  #110
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Wait, you're saying it is unfair to look at Weiss' entire career and say he is better than Flip, yet Flip's ONE season where he outproduced Weiss PROVES that Flip is the better player AND point producer. Seriously?
Yes, that is what I am saying. The hot player the past two years is Filppula. I mean, Danny Briere and Jon Cheechoo should also be available. And why do people want to buy out Samulesson, he was a 30 goal scorer 5 years ago. Keep him!

The past two years Filppula (who is younger) outscored Weiss by 22 points.

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06-17-2013, 02:40 PM
  #111
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Originally Posted by The Zetterberg Era View Post
Filppula outproduced Weiss the past two years
Fixed

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06-17-2013, 02:42 PM
  #112
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I cropped last season from both, because those injuries that affected on both guys play. Also cropped off their rookie seasons.

Weiss (6 seasons)
462 games
116 goals (0.251 per game) 13% more than Filppula's average
201 assists (0.435 per game) 18% more than Filppula's average
317 points (0.686 per game) 16% more than Filppula's average

Filppula (5 seasons)
365 games
81 goals (0.222 per game)
135 assists (0.370 per game)
216 points (0.592 per game)
That is a significant difference in my opinion.

I was a big Filppula guy, I will root for him to put it together elsewhere and I hope somebody pays him his money and he succeeds. I also think he could use the change in scenery and maybe a new coaching voice. But last season left a lot of egg on my face from a summer long of Filppula finally gets it. He reverted back to perimeter Filppula a reluctant shooter and a guy that is at times entirely too predictable especially given his skill set.

Much like Hudler's production though there will be a narrative if he does well some place else. I have always expected Filppula to take the next step, i just don't think he can do it in Detroit for whatever reason.

Weiss at a cheaper price is a no-brainer for me.

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06-17-2013, 02:47 PM
  #113
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Weiss at a cheaper price is a no-brainer for me.
Yeah.

Filppula with 4 million is a good deal
Weiss with 5 million is a good deal

People suggesting Filppula as a better option with higher caphit than Weiss caphit are out of their minds.

The whole thing for this discussion is the asking price. Filppula asks maybe too much, and Weiss could be got cheaper (because his willingness to move nearer Ontario) or equal price than Filppula, and he still would be the better deal and player.

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06-17-2013, 02:48 PM
  #114
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Do I think Filppula is a $5 million dollar player? No. And I also don't think Parise is a $7.5 million dollar player, Malkin isn't a $9 million dollar player, Brad Richards isn't a $6.5 million dollar player, Hudler isn't a.... Shall I keep going?

The problem is, all FA (or soon to be FA) are getting paid more than they are worth.
Weiss and Horton are viewed at getting $6+ million each per year. Clarkson and Filppula will get over $5.5 million. So using the "going" rate in the rediculous FA overpaying going on, Holland will need to overpay to get talent or play the kids (and a bunch of fringe bottom 6 plugs in the top 6). Those are the only two options. So, looking at the going rate on Centers (and wingers), Filppula at $5 million is a bargain.

Hope this helps you understand how NHL economics work. You should check out a cool site called capgeek.com. I can also direct you to other resources to help teach you good info. Shoot me a PM if you need anything else, I'm here for you.
But the choice isn't 1)Keep Flip at $5+ mil OR 2) Sign Weiss at $4+ mil. The Wings could replace from within and/or trade for someone who fits.

Let Flip walk, skip on Weiss.

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06-17-2013, 02:58 PM
  #115
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I cropped last season from both, because those injuries that affected on both guys play. Also cropped off their rookie seasons.

Weiss (6 seasons)
462 games
116 goals (0.251 per game) 13% more than Filppula's average
201 assists (0.435 per game) 18% more than Filppula's average
317 points (0.686 per game) 16% more than Filppula's average

Filppula (5 seasons)
365 games
81 goals (0.222 per game)
135 assists (0.370 per game)
216 points (0.592 per game)
This here really is the nail in coffin on the Flip vs. Weiss debate. This is a big difference.

Still want Horton though...

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06-17-2013, 03:03 PM
  #116
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But the choice isn't 1)Keep Flip at $5+ mil OR 2) Sign Weiss at $4+ mil. The Wings could replace from within and/or trade for someone who fits.

Let Flip walk, skip on Weiss.
Tatar, Nyquist, Andersson... then who? Nobody else is good enough yet. If you have the cap space, may as well use it on depth scoring.

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This here really is the nail in coffin on the Flip vs. Weiss debate. This is a big difference.

Still want Horton though...
Not really, doubt Weiss produces more than Flip in the 3rd line role. Also, one is on their way up, one is on their way down based on the past two year stats. People were mad at Holland for signing Samuelsson based on what he did 3 or 4 years ago.. why does Weiss get the free pass?

Grass is greener syndrome.

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06-17-2013, 03:15 PM
  #117
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Not really, doubt Weiss produces more than Flip in the 3rd line role. Also, one is on their way up, one is on their way down based on the past two year stats. People were mad at Holland for signing Samuelsson based on what he did 3 or 4 years ago.. why does Weiss get the free pass?

Grass is greener syndrome.
Flip hasn't been getting third line minutes since what, 2007? And you still keep up with this BS though everyone is telling you that.

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06-17-2013, 03:17 PM
  #118
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Tatar, Nyquist, Andersson... then who? Nobody else is good enough yet. If you have the cap space, may as well use it on depth scoring.



Not really, doubt Weiss produces more than Flip in the 3rd line role. Also, one is on their way up, one is on their way down based on the past two year stats. People were mad at Holland for signing Samuelsson based on what he did 3 or 4 years ago.. why does Weiss get the free pass?

Grass is greener syndrome.
3rd line role? If Flip goes, there's a 2nd or even 1st line spot right there. I doubt Weiss will be on the 3rd line, especially if he's seen as the Flip replacement. Expect him to play with Z or Dats in the top 6.

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06-17-2013, 03:20 PM
  #119
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Flip hasn't been getting third line minutes since what, 2007? And you still keep up with this BS though everyone is telling you that.
Maybe you just remember, but Filppula wasn't put in the top 6 consistently until like 2 years ago. Your memory must be foggy, because Red Wings had Marian Hossa in 09/2010 season, are you suggesting that Filppula was on the top 6 while Hossa was on the 3rd line?

I seem to remember something like this:

Hossa-Datsyuk-Holmer
Bert-Zetterberg-Franzen

Clearly you don't remember.... :facepalm

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06-17-2013, 03:21 PM
  #120
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Maybe you just remember, but Filppula wasn't put in the top 6 consistently until like 2 years ago. Your memory must be foggy, because Red Wings had Marian Hossa in 09/2010 season, are you suggesting that Filppula was on the top 6 while Hossa was on the 3rd line?

I seem to remember something like this:

Hossa-Datsyuk-Holmer
Bert-Zetterberg-Franzen

Clearly you don't remember.... :facepalm
Quote:
07-08 78 19+17=36 (38) +16, 16:57 avg toi 6th among forwards, 1:49 pp
08-09 80 12+28=40 (41) +9, 16:06 toi 6th most, 0:47 pp
09-10 55 11+24=35 (52) -4, 18:14 4th most, 2:27
10-11 71 16+23=39 (45) -1, 16:43 4th most, 2:01
11-12 81 23+43=66 (67) +18, 18:15 3rd most, 2:27
12-13 82 16+18=34 -11, 17:49 4th most, 2:49
Doesn't seem like third line minutes to me.

Right back at ya. Maybe it's you who doesn't remember. Flip was second line C in 08 when Wings won the cup.

And btw Wings didn't have Hossa in 09-10.

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06-17-2013, 03:22 PM
  #121
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EDIT:

Hossa was 2008/09. Typo, can't fix.

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06-17-2013, 03:24 PM
  #122
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[QUOTE=InjuredChoker;67599787]
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Originally Posted by HTT3 View Post
Maybe you just remember, but Filppula wasn't put in the top 6 consistently until like 2 years ago. Your memory must be foggy, because Red Wings had Marian Hossa in 09/2010 season, are you suggesting that Filppula was on the top 6 while Hossa was on the 3rd line?

I seem to remember something like this:

Hossa-Datsyuk-Holmer
Bert-Zetterberg-Franzen

Clearly you don't remember.... :facepalm[/QUOTE



Doesn't seem like third line minutes to me.

Right back at ya.
You are including PK minutes.....

Sheesh! Guess Hossa and Holmstrom were bottom 6 players, then. Since they didn't get PK minutes... using your mentality.

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06-17-2013, 03:31 PM
  #123
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You are including PK minutes.....

Sheesh! Guess Hossa and Holmstrom were bottom 6 players, then. Since they didn't get PK minutes... using your mentality.
Hossa had more ice time than Flip.

Holmström had less. Homer had under 12 mins of ice time on ES. Flip had 13:33.

Hossa got top6 mins and so did Flip.

Flip was 5th on ES ice time in 08-09.

And how about hose other seasons, too?

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06-17-2013, 03:33 PM
  #124
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Originally Posted by InjuredChoker View Post
Doesn't seem like third line minutes to me.

Right back at ya. Maybe it's you who doesn't remember. Flip was second line C in 08 when Wings won the cup.

And btw Wings didn't have Hossa in 09-10.
I seem to remember Hudler-Filppula-Cleary(?I think cleary) line. Maybe we had a 3rd line getting 2nd line minutes with the lack of talent on it. I remember Babcock breaking up Z and D so they could center their own line.

Speaking of the 2008 playoffs, Filppula was a BEAST and scored some important goals for us.

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06-17-2013, 03:37 PM
  #125
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Datsyuk and Z weren't split up in the cup run.

Datsyuk - Z - Holmstrom
Franzen - Filppula - Samuelsson
Cleary - Draper - Drake
Hudler - Helm - Maltby

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