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Old
06-16-2013, 02:38 PM
  #1
ted1971
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Historical Websites for Stats

Other then HOCKEYdb & Hockey Reference, what are some other sites that have Historical Rosters & Stats?

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06-16-2013, 03:00 PM
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Vikke
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eliteprospects.

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06-16-2013, 03:39 PM
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http://www.justsportsstats.com/hockeyindex.php

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06-16-2013, 03:58 PM
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Boom Boom Bear
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Hockey Summary Project
http://hsp.flyershistory.com/

Just a note on the Internet Hockey Database:

there are a lot of errors I've encountered, such as split records, misspellings, players listed out of position, stats attributed to the wrong person [especially in the coaching records], & holes in player records. I used to send emails to them when I'd find mistakes, but I don't bother anymore, because they never ever responded, nor fixed the errors I pointed out. While it is perhaps the largest database of hockey records out there, it is probably only in the 85-90% accuracy range, at best. It's pretty good for straight NHL scoring, but weak on many of the other leagues. I recommend it as a secondary rather than a primary source. In some cases, you'll probably need to use another source to verify the info on IHDB is correct. Eliteprospects is far more accurate.


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06-16-2013, 06:02 PM
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Lots of stuff here, but their day-by-day historical standings is cool.

http://shrpsports.com/nhl/

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06-17-2013, 11:05 AM
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Originally Posted by Boom Boom Bear View Post
Hockey Summary Project
http://hsp.flyershistory.com/

Just a note on the Internet Hockey Database:

there are a lot of errors I've encountered, such as split records, misspellings, players listed out of position, stats attributed to the wrong person [especially in the coaching records], & holes in player records. I used to send emails to them when I'd find mistakes, but I don't bother anymore, because they never ever responded, nor fixed the errors I pointed out. While it is perhaps the largest database of hockey records out there, it is probably only in the 85-90% accuracy range, at best. It's pretty good for straight NHL scoring, but weak on many of the other leagues. I recommend it as a secondary rather than a primary source. In some cases, you'll probably need to use another source to verify the info on IHDB is correct. Eliteprospects is far more accurate.
Yeah lol! It seems the only afterthought the guy behind that page does is complain on Facebook about other sites "stealing" his data.

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06-17-2013, 11:35 AM
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I consider hockeydb.com the premier site out there for this sort of thing. I'm sure that there are errors there; it's a consequence of having so much data collected. I've also never seen Ralph complain about others taking his data - maybe I'm on the wrong Facebook page.

As far as other sites, I'm partial to my own:
http://hockeygoalies.org

The biography pages are the part I've built up the most so far (working on the awards pages next) - three things that are particularly difficult to get on other sites are sweater numbers, advanced analytics, and NHL/AHL/international game logs.

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06-17-2013, 11:40 AM
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I left HockeyDB as soon as pop-up ads were added. Perhaps he still has them, the few times i visit becouse of his rather large statbase my ad-blocker might take care of them. I think his layout screams nineties to me as well, he should update it but it's probably tied to some old-time system that is'nt updateable.

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06-17-2013, 11:47 AM
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I've always been hesitant to include advertising on my site (and still don't). On the other hand, I can see why Ralph does it - web hosting isn't free (and neither is the time put into it). I still do mine as pure hobby, but it's a lot of hours of effort (and I don't use webscrapers because I've gotten some weird results when I've tried).

I know Ralph reasonably well, and I believe that his primary, secondary, and tertiary motives for continuing to update hockeydb is the goal of getting this information available.

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06-17-2013, 12:41 PM
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Originally Posted by Taco MacArthur View Post
I consider hockeydb.com the premier site out there for this sort of thing. I'm sure that there are errors there; it's a consequence of having so much data collected. I've also never seen Ralph complain about others taking his data - maybe I'm on the wrong Facebook page.

As far as other sites, I'm partial to my own:
http://hockeygoalies.org

The biography pages are the part I've built up the most so far (working on the awards pages next) - three things that are particularly difficult to get on other sites are sweater numbers, advanced analytics, and NHL/AHL/international game logs.
Ralph and Eliteprospects don't see eye to eye at all. He has admitted that he placed a few fake players in his database to see who is stealing his data. <---edit: misunderstood an old comment.(see below)

Hockeydb = good for old school NA minor leagues and current stats for the NHL/AHL/ECHL
Eliteprospects = good for all overseas leagues, everything from the KHL down to the lowest leagues in europe. Found out that a mutual friend was playing in a 4th tier German league last year when hockeydb had his hockey career ending in 2010.


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06-17-2013, 12:50 PM
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prosportstransactions.com is also a good site for tracking trades, trade history, injuries, and contract info. The person running it seems like he appreciated a few corrections that I sent his way.

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06-17-2013, 12:54 PM
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Ralph and Eliteprospects don't see eye to eye at all. He has admitted that he placed a few fake players in his database to see who is stealing his data. It would take some digging, but he posted it on his FB page sometime last year.
I didn't remember this, but you're right (it's on the FB page in December of 2011).

I've seen people copy that sort of thing on my page; it's always been a genuine typo on my part, but it's always informative (and somewhat frustrating) to see where it ends up.

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06-17-2013, 02:18 PM
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A lot of mistakes on IHDB are so obvious they're completely unacceptable, & I find it weird that... Ralph?, I guess?... doesn't respond to corrections to his mistakes. A couple of examples:

Some weeks back, while browsing the HOH section here, I encountered a thread in which a poster wrote a history of the Atlanta Flames franchise, complete with an all-time Atlanta All-Star team, with mini player bios for those he considered the top players. Trouble was, he had Ken Houston, a career right winger, listed as a defenseman... Oops! Major gaffe, especially considering the fact that he wrote about what kind of player Houston was [all those 20-goal seasons made him an offensive defenseman]. The guy probably never saw Houston play or he wouldn't have made that mistake, but it was obvious he was getting his info from IHDB, which has Houston listed as a defenseman. The only other place I've seen Houston EVER listed as a defenseman is on his 82-83 Washington Capitals OPC hockey card. This tipped me off that IHDB is probably largely constructed out of data from hockey cards, which also explains gaps in records, etc. Nowhere else on the web, no hockey guides, etc., have I ever seen Houston listed as a defenseman, just the one hockey card & his IHDB entry. So the errors on the site actually have an impact on research because so many people use it as a primary data site. If Ralph wants his site to be the go-to site for hockey data, I find it unacceptable that he ignores corrections.

Another big one, because it gives me nightmares just thinking about it, is he has Bill LaForge listed as the Canucks coach for the ENTIRE 84-85 season. Brrrr... I shudder every time I try to imagine LaForge taking the Canucks beyond those 19 games he did coach.

Anyway, I guess I'm not sure why a guy who obviously poaches a great deal of his info from hockey cards is getting pissy with people for "stealing" public domain data.

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06-17-2013, 02:22 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Taco MacArthur View Post
I consider hockeydb.com the premier site out there for this sort of thing. I'm sure that there are errors there; it's a consequence of having so much data collected. I've also never seen Ralph complain about others taking his data - maybe I'm on the wrong Facebook page.

As far as other sites, I'm partial to my own:
http://hockeygoalies.org

The biography pages are the part I've built up the most so far (working on the awards pages next) - three things that are particularly difficult to get on other sites are sweater numbers, advanced analytics, and NHL/AHL/international game logs.
Great site, Taco. I've visited it often, didn't know it was you. Nice work.

Another good site is http://www.hockeydraftcentral.com/
I like the bios that detail all the injuries.

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06-17-2013, 02:25 PM
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How many weeks back is "some weeks" back?

I don't get that much correspondence, but I find it overwhelming at times. I'm sure that Ralph gets multiple times what I get; could it be that "ignoring you" is really just "hasn't gotten to you yet"? I've found him very responsive in messages, and even that, it sometimes takes him awhile to get back.

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06-17-2013, 02:27 PM
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Great site, Taco. I've visited it often, didn't know it was you. Nice work.

Another good site is http://www.hockeydraftcentral.com/
I like the bios that detail all the injuries.
Thanks! I can't believe that next year will be 20 years. I legitimately started the site because there was no hockey information on the internet; most of the early editions were just me transcribing directly from the Sporting News NHL Guide and Register (ah, the days I could have had back).

I love Hockey Draft Central - very nice call; I really wish that the creator would continue with the project, because he finds interesting things about draft picks that I've never even heard of before.

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06-17-2013, 02:32 PM
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How many weeks back is "some weeks" back?

I don't get that much correspondence, but I find it overwhelming at times. I'm sure that Ralph gets multiple times what I get; could it be that "ignoring you" is really just "hasn't gotten to you yet"? I've found him very responsive in messages, and even that, it sometimes takes him awhile to get back.
I never wrote to him about the Ken Houston error, I stopped sending in corrections well over a year ago. The LaForge error bothered me so much that I sent in the correction 3 times over a period of about two years: nothing happened.

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06-17-2013, 02:36 PM
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Originally Posted by Boom Boom Bear View Post
I never wrote to him about the Ken Houston error, I stopped sending in corrections well over a year ago. The LaForge error bothered me so much that I sent in the correction 3 times over a period of about two years: nothing happened.
Hmmm...I suppose that things could have gotten lost in the shuffle. I know that he's picky about what he'll take over e-mail (since he gets quite a few e-mails from people who want their public record to be better than it actually was).

Even given that, Houston as a defenseman is an unusual one - it's possible that Ralph has good evidence that he played a portion of time on the blueline, although even in that case, I'd prefer to see him listed multi-positionally.

On LaForge, he has him joining Hamilton midseason, so it's clear that he left Vancouver - but you're right that he ascribes Vancouver's entire record to LaForge:

http://www.hockeydb.com/ihdb/stats/p....php?pid=27384

Maybe Harry Neale is working behind the scenes?

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06-17-2013, 03:46 PM
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Ken Houston was drafted as a defenseman.

http://www.hockeydraftcentral.com/1973/73085.html

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06-17-2013, 04:04 PM
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Good call on Houston (and more about what I love about Hockey Draft Central).

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06-17-2013, 04:11 PM
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Hi - Ralph Slate from hockeydb here. Let me address some of this.

First off, I do get 50 to 75 emails per day. Sometimes things get lost. If you alert me to a problem that is easy to fix, I try to fix it almost immediately, but sometimes the emails require extensive research, and those are the types of issues that tend to get lost.

If you email me with a potential problem without sending along documentation for what you believe is the correct information, I can't just make the change. I have had people send me incorrect information before, sometimes accidentally, sometimes deliberately. When someone sends me an email that says "Joe Smith was born in Winnipeg, not Steinbach", that isn't enough for me to change it unless you identify yourself as Joe Smith or his close relative. I have no way of knowing if my site is right or your information is right, and I trust myself more than a distant email.

When that happens I have to try and triage the problem, weighing the magnitude of the error against the time it would take to verify the old vs. new information. I can't spend two hours to decide if a particular player who played 40 years ago was a left or right shot. If I have the player as "left", that is because in some book, that player was listed as a "left".

Regarding Ken Houston, his position came from a game program from when he was with Omaha in 1973-74. He was listed as a defenseman that season. It may be obvious to you that he was a forward but I have so much in my head that I don’t remember the position of a mid-level player like Houston. You're right that my process doesn't handle positional or vital stat changes for historical players very well because for the historical seasons, there are 5,000+ players per season (now there are 20,000 different players per season in the database). Since a position change happens rarely, and since finding the vital stats of a player is relatively time-consuming, I don’t check the vital stats once I have them entered for a player unless someone raises it to me as an issue along with quick and easy documentation.

With more recent players, I use information which the leagues publish electronically, which makes it easier to process. This is unfortunately not always accurate. This season, the AHL published over 50 birthdate errors, which I caught. They also published some birthdate corrections, in cases where a college or junior team had the wrong information. I have no way of verifying a birthdate when an official source is incorrect – unless the player emails me himself (which does happen).

Regarding “holes in player records” – to the best of my knowledge those only exist when a player goes to Europe and plays in a lower league there. I consider my database complete for all North American professional hockey back to the 1920's, most Canadian top-level Junior (I'm still missing a couple of seasons from the 1950's and 1960's - they didn't publish guides back then!), most European elite hockey from 2000 forward, many records from the 70's and 80's (I even have Russian 2nd division from the 80's, which I transcribed from Cyrillic), most D1 college from the 70's forward (and all D1 from the 80's forward), a lot of D3 college from the 90's forward, a lot of lower European from the 80's forward, and a lot of Tier 2 junior leagues from the 90's forward.

Regarding Bill Laforge, the coaching information has a disclaimer next to it, but I’ll rehash it here. There is no one-stop official shop for historical coaching information. There are really just three places to find official or contemporary information: 1) the league or team media guide. Problem there is that mid-season changes don’t often get reported. 2) Game programs. This allows me to find mid-year coaching changes, but it is hard to find the exact date, and it’s hit-or-miss. 3) newspapers. These give the most accurate list of coaching changes, but you have to know that a change was made in order to search for the coach. I’ll check my emails, but that is the kind of thing I would normally act on immediately. Keep in mind that I do get about 200 spam messages per day, so sometimes the filter hits a real email. I will see if I did get that email, and will certainly fix his record - from newspaper archives, I can see that he was fired on November 21 1984. Now that I have the NHL game scores (added about 2 years ago - I now have the scores/results of about 225,000 different games) I can calculate his record.

I think that your claim of “85-90% accurate” is far too low. Of course I can’t know what the percentage is, but I go through great lengths to make sure that the data, especially the statistics, are accurate. It’s true that some areas are going to be less complete (different than accurate) than others – coaching, especially assistant coaches (which are rarely even listed in league guides), trades (I have found even the NHL trade register in the official NHL guide to omit some trades), heights and weights which are impossible to verify (I’ve noticed when a player goes to Europe, his height and weight usually go down, my theory is that a player finds it harder to lie in centimeters and kilograms because he doesn’t know the equivalent of 6’ 190lbs). I also draw the line at certain leagues in Europe – those 4th division German leagues don’t even usually have a good source of information readily available.

To be clear, my information does not come from hockey cards, nor does the historical information come from other sites on the internet. It comes from official, credible, contemporary historical records – hockey guides, books, magazines, programs, team media releases, etc. That means I don’t go and poach information from hockeydraftcentral, or from hockey-reference, or from prosportstransactions.com. Yes, it would make my life easier if I just wrote a script that said “download everything from eliteprospects” – would you respect my site if I did that?

Regarding Eliteprospects, that site started out initially very differently from my site. They were a site that focused on player trades. At some point they started to become a prospects-oriented statistics site. And then, at some point, they tried to fill in the history on older players. They did this solely by using internet-based sources (since they are made up of volunteers), and my site was the primary historical statistical site on the internet. So their volunteers went on my site and downloaded the players and added them to their site.

I do not have fake players on hockeydb.com – I discovered Eliteprospects was doing this because that their player selection for D3 college players from the 1980’s was identical to mine, and they included a good friend of mine despite him not ever playing professional hockey (which was the standard I was using for D3 schools at the time). I contacted them and they admitted to me that they were doing this.

I respect the point that I did not invent the information on my site, but I can tell you that I spent tens of thousands of hours and many tens of thousands of dollars digging the information up from all corners of the planet to compile it in one place. When a direct competitor systematically downloads it from my site, using my work to compete against me, I can't believe that anyone thinks that this is a reasonable or respectable thing to do. The reason I get pissy about it is that I hear people say “eliteprospects is better than hockeydb.com – it has everything that hockeydb.com has but even more” – of course they have a lot of what I have, they took it right from my site, what took me 10 years to compile, they got it in 10 minutes! Wouldn’t that get under your skin?

Darth Yoda, I removed popunder ads in 2010 so hopefully you’ll return. (Ironically, I got a popunder here while writing this post.) Advertising is necessary because the hosting bill alone is very expensive, far more than a hobby site. I had to beef up the servers because they would go down a few times a year, mostly when people wanted information the most (like trade deadline day). I also have it because I do spend a lot of money buying things that I then use to update the site. For example, I just picked up a series of BCHL media-only guides from the early 2000’s – cost me $400, mostly because of shipping from Canada to the US. But now I will be able to fill in more information about that league, and that is what this is all about. I still work a day job though, because the advertising dollars can’t replace that income.

I do respect your point about “90’s layout”, although I’d personally reserve that kind of criticism for “dropyourgloves.com” (another site that loaded their database by downloading it from my site). Any suggestions as to what a fresher layout would look like? I’m a stats/database guy, not a design guy.

I hope this helps clear some things up. I understand and respect that not everyone thinks that my site is the best out there, my site has a flavor that reflects what I want it to be. I know that I have a lot of places I can improve – but I spend 30-40 hours a week adding information, responding to emails, making improvements, etc., so it’s not like I’m letting the site just wither and die. It may not be the information that you want fixed, but it will all wash out eventually, I’m sure. So please - keep the corrections coming, I do appreciate them! And if you have any questions, please feel free to ask them here.

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06-17-2013, 04:14 PM
  #22
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Originally Posted by Boom Boom Bear View Post
A lot of mistakes on IHDB are so obvious they're completely unacceptable, & I find it weird that... Ralph?, I guess?... doesn't respond to corrections to his mistakes. A couple of examples:

Some weeks back, while browsing the HOH section here, I encountered a thread in which a poster wrote a history of the Atlanta Flames franchise, complete with an all-time Atlanta All-Star team, with mini player bios for those he considered the top players. Trouble was, he had Ken Houston, a career right winger, listed as a defenseman... Oops! Major gaffe, especially considering the fact that he wrote about what kind of player Houston was [all those 20-goal seasons made him an offensive defenseman]. The guy probably never saw Houston play or he wouldn't have made that mistake, but it was obvious he was getting his info from IHDB, which has Houston listed as a defenseman. The only other place I've seen Houston EVER listed as a defenseman is on his 82-83 Washington Capitals OPC hockey card. This tipped me off that IHDB is probably largely constructed out of data from hockey cards, which also explains gaps in records, etc. Nowhere else on the web, no hockey guides, etc., have I ever seen Houston listed as a defenseman, just the one hockey card & his IHDB entry. So the errors on the site actually have an impact on research because so many people use it as a primary data site. If Ralph wants his site to be the go-to site for hockey data, I find it unacceptable that he ignores corrections.

Another big one, because it gives me nightmares just thinking about it, is he has Bill LaForge listed as the Canucks coach for the ENTIRE 84-85 season. Brrrr... I shudder every time I try to imagine LaForge taking the Canucks beyond those 19 games he did coach.

Anyway, I guess I'm not sure why a guy who obviously poaches a great deal of his info from hockey cards is getting pissy with people for "stealing" public domain data.
I sent Ralph a few corrections a year or two ago. He doesn't respond immediately like a co-worker, but based on things like volume of email that he probably receives for IHDB and doing this as a hobby, I didn't find the turnaround time to be terrible. It was maybe 2-3 days tops. Considering it was nothing that I'd consider to be time-critical, that's perfectly acceptable to me.

The "stealing" of data? I don't agree with this stance on it, but I understand the logic. Imagine being the guy who spends hundreds and hundreds of hours of coding and typing lines of monotonous code. One day, I decide to come along and create JShockeystats.com and poach every line of his code. All of his hard work is now on my site within a matter of a few hours. I'd probably be pissed if somebody hijacked my work and passed it off as their own.

Is it public domain? Yeah, you can say that. It's not like the NHL, AHL, etc., says our stats may only be posted on hockeydb.com or on their respective league's site.

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06-17-2013, 04:24 PM
  #23
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Originally Posted by Ralph Slate View Post
I do not have fake players on hockeydb.com I discovered Eliteprospects was doing this because that their player selection for D3 college players from the 1980s was identical to mine, and they included a good friend of mine despite him not ever playing professional hockey (which was the standard I was using for D3 schools at the time). I contacted them and they admitted to me that they were doing this.
I do remember the comment about a friend of yours and that he never played hockey. Forgetting a word or two (i.e. never playing professional hockey vs never playing hockey) and it's a completely different sentence.

That's my misunderstanding. I'll strike the comment above.

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06-17-2013, 04:25 PM
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Ralph, thanks for stepping in and providing some meat to the discussion.

As for the layout, I've always liked your layout - at least on my site, I've preferred the "can you find what you want when you want it?" test, and that's something that hockeydb.com has always done quite well.

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06-17-2013, 04:34 PM
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Is it public domain? Yeah, you can say that. It's not like the NHL, AHL, etc., says our stats may only be posted on hockeydb.com or on their respective league's site.
True, although some of this stuff is really hard to find. It's technically public domain, yes.

I had someone pass off some late-1980s game logs as their own a few weeks ago. Having spent hundreds of hours in the microfilm room compiling those, I'm glad that he'd managed to preserve a few of my typos in the process (funny that the eyesight tends to go a bit after hundreds of hours in the microfilm room ).

To clarify, I like (and encourage) that people disseminate the information - the primary reason that I ask people to link to my site instead of CTRL-C/CTRL-V is because when I do find the errors, they are corrected globally. What I didn't like was the guy claiming that he'd come up with it on his own.

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