HFBoards

Go Back   HFBoards > General Hockey Discussion > The History of Hockey
Mobile Hockey's Future Become a Sponsor Site Rules Support Forum vBookie Page 2
Notices

The History of Hockey Relive great moments in hockey history and discuss how the game has changed over time.

Historical Websites for Stats

Reply
 
Thread Tools
Old
06-17-2013, 04:52 PM
  #26
Mayor Bee
\/me_____you\/
 
Mayor Bee's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2008
Posts: 17,699
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ralph Slate View Post
Hi - Ralph Slate from hockeydb here. Let me address some of this.

....

I hope this helps clear some things up. I understand and respect that not everyone thinks that my site is the best out there, my site has a flavor that reflects what I want it to be. I know that I have a lot of places I can improve Ė but I spend 30-40 hours a week adding information, responding to emails, making improvements, etc., so itís not like Iím letting the site just wither and die. It may not be the information that you want fixed, but it will all wash out eventually, Iím sure. So please - keep the corrections coming, I do appreciate them! And if you have any questions, please feel free to ask them here.
Ralph,

I'm a longtime fan (and user) of your site, going back to...well, it was sometime in the 20th century anyway. I hope you don't mind a handful of questions.

1) Is there a particular type of information that's regarded as higher-priority than others? If I find photographic evidence that a player wore a different number in the NHL in 1996-97 than is listed (or possibly both of them), would it be assigned a higher priority to fix than adjusting a birth place or birth year for a player? Or is it more of an "I'll get to it when I get to it" type of process?

2) With things like position changes, is there a good mechanism for making year-to-year changes? Dustin Byfuglien is the most prominent player in the last few years to switch back and forth between forward and defense, but older guys like Mark Lamb and Mike Peluso (the enforcer, not the minor-leaguer) started off on the blueline but were forwards by the time they hit the NHL.

3) Is the lack of player numbers for guys who are traded or released mid-season intentional, or simply a byproduct of better access to end-of-season materials? Particularly in the NHL in the last 20 years, where more information is available, is the filling in of these numbers going to be changing soon?

4) Is there a particular project that's simply been a sticking point but you can't get through? If you had a handful of freelance researchers, what's the one thing that you would point them towards and say "PLEASE get this taken care of; it's been bugging me for 10+ years"?

5) If a freelancer were to start exploring something for later submission to hockeydb.com, is there a way to see what kind of progress has already been made? (I may or may not have one spent several weeks compiling info on a particular historical football team, only to find out that the person who wanted it had also been working on it without telling me.)

Mayor Bee is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
06-17-2013, 04:56 PM
  #27
Doctor No
Registered User
 
Doctor No's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2005
Posts: 6,684
vCash: 50
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mayor Bee View Post
1) Is there a particular type of information that's regarded as higher-priority than others? If I find photographic evidence that a player wore a different number in the NHL in 1996-97 than is listed (or possibly both of them), would it be assigned a higher priority to fix than adjusting a birth place or birth year for a player? Or is it more of an "I'll get to it when I get to it" type of process?
Tangentially, if it's in 1996-97, you could probably even tie the evidence out to a specific date (which would probably elevate it on Ralph's list - I've seen some interesting numbers worn by players in preseason games, for instance).

For instance, this is how I found that Mike Vernon wore #32 in Florida before getting his preferred #29 from Ryan Johnson a few days later:

http://www.nhl.com/ice/icetracker.htm?id=1999020526

Doctor No is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
06-17-2013, 05:01 PM
  #28
Mayor Bee
\/me_____you\/
 
Mayor Bee's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2008
Posts: 17,699
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Taco MacArthur View Post
Tangentially, if it's in 1996-97, you could probably even tie the evidence out to a specific date (which would probably elevate it on Ralph's list - I've seen some interesting numbers worn by players in preseason games, for instance).

For instance, this is how I found that Mike Vernon wore #32 in Florida before getting his preferred #29 from Ryan Johnson a few days later:

http://www.nhl.com/ice/icetracker.htm?id=1999020526
Preseason and training camp information is actually something I've thought about compiling and centralizing. One reason is because I think it's extremely interesting to see who teams once had in camp without ever doing anything with, and another is that I simply find random numbers unusually fascinating.

Mayor Bee is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
06-17-2013, 05:07 PM
  #29
Doctor No
Registered User
 
Doctor No's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2005
Posts: 6,684
vCash: 50
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mayor Bee View Post
Preseason and training camp information is actually something I've thought about compiling and centralizing. One reason is because I think it's extremely interesting to see who teams once had in camp without ever doing anything with, and another is that I simply find random numbers unusually fascinating.
I feel the same way (I'd be interested), and it's definitely an open niche.

Speaking of open niches that deserve attention, here's a site:
http://benchw.blogspot.com/

Dedicated to goaltenders who only backed up in the NHL (without actually appearing in net).

Doctor No is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
06-17-2013, 05:30 PM
  #30
Mayor Bee
\/me_____you\/
 
Mayor Bee's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2008
Posts: 17,699
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Taco MacArthur View Post
I feel the same way (I'd be interested), and it's definitely an open niche.

Speaking of open niches that deserve attention, here's a site:
http://benchw.blogspot.com/

Dedicated to goaltenders who only backed up in the NHL (without actually appearing in net).
That's....interesting. Definitely some familiar names on there. Hell, I own one of the jerseys used in said callup by one of those goalies.

And that picture of Craig Hillier is about the most 90s thing I've seen in years.

Mayor Bee is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
06-17-2013, 06:28 PM
  #31
Ralph Slate
Registered User
 
Join Date: Feb 2007
Posts: 57
vCash: 500
mayorbee, I'll try and answer your questions the best I can:

1) Yes, I definitely prioritize information provided with respect to how important it is to me, how easy it is to fix, and how reliable the source is.

2) With respect to position changes, there are unfortunately no easy answers. The perfect answer would be to carry the position along with every player entry (i.e. each team/season of stats, each draft, each trade, etc.). That would be astronomically hard to compile and maintain, especially since the information is not always available for each season historically. Another approach would be to have a hybrid position - "F/D" - but that's a little like labeling all food as "warning - may contain nuts" - it wouldn't solve the problem, it would just protect against it. A third approach would be to just keep it as updated as possible (that is what I try to do for the more recent players) but the drawback is that this skews things like junior stats or draft info.

3) The lack of jerseys for traded players is due to how the NHL reports the information in its guide. If you look at any NHL media guide, they list the player only with his final team, and only list the jersey from that team. A few years ago I started sampling the rosters from team websites on a daily basis to preserve the jersey changes. This unfortunately led to a lot of questionable data, because - believe it or not - the team websites sometimes list the wrong jersey for a few days. Even the NHL does not get the jersey information correct on their site in the boxscores, one player was listed with Jersey A in the boxscore but the game footage showed him with Jersey B. I do try and fill in the jersey information when I get a chance, mainly from game programs, but it's a low-priority for me because I don't collect NHL game programs and it is time consuming to find those needle-in-a-haystack guys.

4) There are dozens of such projects. Some of them are hard for scope-of-effort reasons (for example, I'd like to get all the game results from the AHL - I'm only missing about 10 seasons - but researching a season takes a really long time). Others are availability-based (for example, I'd like to get the player stats for the Western Canada Junior Hockey League [current-day WHL] for the 1967-68 season, but I haven't ever come across them yet).

5) I am a member of SIHR, and even within an organization that is centered on hockey history, I find so few people willing to collaborate. People love to debate who the best defenseman of all-time was, but I have not yet found anyone willing to go through newspapers (even online) to compile game scores or to find attendance figures. I'd definitely be willing to work with someone on things if the information falls within my area of interest, but I can only promise a level of attention proportional to my level of interest in the subject. I am even willing to pay people to find information for me, provided that the information is either a direct copy of an original source or is very well-documented. Some of this research just takes a LONG time - for example, I'm trying to compile the game scores from the 1967-68 EHL right now because I want to ultimately figure out the story of the Syracuse Blazers and why they were so bad. Syracuse lost some games that year by a score of 20-0! But then they might win the next game 4-3. They had the league's leading scorer too. Why were they so bad? The only way to answer that question is to figure out their goalies, but the official EHL stats did not break down the stats of traded players. They also did not compile saves - even though this number was usually reported in boxscores. Were the goalies bad, or was the defense bad? That's the question. But to get the answer, it will require at least 60-100 hours of work, and maybe more, depending on the availability of newspapers online. The Syracuse newspaper is available at newspaperarchive.com, but the Sunday edition is not included and a lot of games were played on Saturdays.

I generally find mixed-results with collaborative efforts among a wide group of people. The Hockey Summary Project has been working for 10 years to compile boxscores of NHL games. Although they show a fair amount of progress, the information is really spotty, and doesn't even contain enough information to derive if a player played in a particular game (they used the condensed boxscores found in the Hockey News rather than the extended boxscores found in newspapers). So although a lot of effort has been expended, the information is sketchy, at best.

Ralph

Ralph Slate is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
06-17-2013, 07:40 PM
  #32
Mayor Bee
\/me_____you\/
 
Mayor Bee's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2008
Posts: 17,699
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ralph Slate View Post
mayorbee, I'll try and answer your questions the best I can:

...

Ralph
Thank you for the detailed answers; I really appreciate you taking the time to follow up.

I can certainly sympathize with the issue of research and collaboration. My general opinion is "compile first, then argue your conclusions to your heart's content". I look at baseball, whose MacMillan Baseball Encyclopedia was largely the result of two incredible compilers in Ernest Lanigan and Lee Allen. I get the feeling that hockey is years behind because such an effort was never fully undertaken; in a sense, the old "what color are angels' eyes?" take place while too little of a premium is placed on the most basic foundation of information.

I grant that baseball has the advantage in that their box scores go way back and contain a great deal more information than hockey, but the underlying attitude (that of debating the unknown rather than putting together the important and the arcane alike) with too many in hockey history doesn't help.

(Obviously, I consider myself more of a researcher and compiler than a debater when it comes to hockey history. I'd rather spend the time trying to put together a roster of the 1941-42 Akron Clippers from newspaper sources than engaging in yet another Bourque/Coffey or Roy/Hasek debate. I may or may not have put together an NHL attendance spreadsheet last year using a variety of sources; your site is included, but other sources are both used and cited.)

I get the feeling I'll have to drop you a PM as well, but I just wanted to say "thanks" and address a couple of issues publicly first.

Mayor Bee is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
06-17-2013, 07:48 PM
  #33
Ralph Slate
Registered User
 
Join Date: Feb 2007
Posts: 57
vCash: 500
Not to beat a dead horse, but to give you some insight here, this is the only email I ever received about Bill Laforge in Vancouver (I have all my emails going back to 1996), I'm not sure it was you:

Quote:
As I recall, in the 1984-85 season LaForge lasted only 20 games as coach of the Vancouver Canucks. Hired in the off-season, this guy used draconian tactics during training camp to motivate the players such as making them run laps with full gear on. He motivated the players alright. He motivated them to stop playing. 20 games into the season and very little to show in the win column, management fired LaForge. Years later LaForge was brought in to coach the Tri-City Americans of the major junior WHL. The players mutinied, refusing to play for him.
It should have elicited a response from me, but this was back in 2006, and there were no online newspaper repositories where I could quickly verify that info. I also did not have the NHL game results loaded so I couldn't even figure out the Canucks record after 20 games, and the statement was made in a somewhat uncertain manner ("as I recall"). Since Laforge didn't ever coach in the NHL again his record didn't appear in the NHL guide ever again.

Laforge was in fact fired after 20 games, but it wasn't something I could easily verify at the time and so it slipped through the cracks.

Ralph Slate is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
06-17-2013, 08:14 PM
  #34
Killion
Global Moderator
 
Killion's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2010
Posts: 32,274
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Taco MacArthur View Post
Speaking of open niches that deserve attention, here's a site: http://benchw.blogspot.com/...
Say thats a quirky little site... Russ Gillow no less. Looks like its still a major work in progress.

Killion is online now   Reply With Quote
Old
06-17-2013, 09:09 PM
  #35
Ralph Slate
Registered User
 
Join Date: Feb 2007
Posts: 57
vCash: 500
Mayor Bee, I would be glad to collaborate with anyone who is interested in the Akron Clippers. The Michigan-Ontario Hockey League is of great interest to me, it is a league that hasn't had a lot of attention paid to it. It's very hard to find information on it though, it's all buried in newspapers, most of which are not online yet. I have a few game programs from 1941-42 from some of the other teams, the rosters from them are the extent of the information I have though.

Ralph Slate is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
06-17-2013, 09:51 PM
  #36
Mayor Bee
\/me_____you\/
 
Mayor Bee's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2008
Posts: 17,699
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ralph Slate View Post
Mayor Bee, I would be glad to collaborate with anyone who is interested in the Akron Clippers. The Michigan-Ontario Hockey League is of great interest to me, it is a league that hasn't had a lot of attention paid to it. It's very hard to find information on it though, it's all buried in newspapers, most of which are not online yet. I have a few game programs from 1941-42 from some of the other teams, the rosters from them are the extent of the information I have though.
Not sure if you saw this when it was originally auctioned. It's certainly a unique piece...of course, I had a shot at it when it was on eBay for $200, but didn't have the cash at the time.

http://www.classicauctions.net/Defau...=72&lotid=1007

I'll start on the M-OHL, and see what I can dig up on the Clippers.

Mayor Bee is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
06-18-2013, 02:42 AM
  #37
alko
Registered User
 
alko's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2004
Location: Slovakia
Country: Slovakia
Posts: 3,196
vCash: 500
I appreciate all hard work behind this sites. A few years ago i started my own project, dedicated to Slovak players - http://www.slovakhockey.sk/.

alko is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Forum Jump


Bookmarks

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off



All times are GMT -5. The time now is 11:39 PM.

monitoring_string = "e4251c93e2ba248d29da988d93bf5144"

vBulletin Copyright ©2000 - 2017, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
HFBoards.com is a property of CraveOnline Media, LLC, an Evolve Media, LLC company. ©2017 All Rights Reserved.