HFBoards

Go Back   HFBoards > NHL Eastern Conference > Atlantic Division > Toronto Maple Leafs
Mobile Hockey's Future Become a Sponsor Site Rules Support Forum vBookie Page 2
Notices

Phaneuf 11th in Norris voting

Reply
 
Thread Tools
Old
06-17-2013, 11:49 PM
  #151
zeke
#freewilly
 
zeke's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2005
Posts: 30,648
vCash: 500
He should have finished higher than 11th, as he was borderline top-5 this year, but i'm surprised that voters ranked him that high, even though he clearly deserved it....his reputation has been so thoroughly and unfairly trashed that i didn't think he'd ever recover in terms of public perception.

of course, the really funny thing is that he, along with a number of other guys on the top 10, are much better dmen than subban and letang.

zeke is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
06-17-2013, 11:55 PM
  #152
zeke
#freewilly
 
zeke's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2005
Posts: 30,648
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Guy Boucher View Post
Beauch was good in Toronto too. Toronto fans are just merciless on their defenseman though.
Not merciless, just ignorant.

zeke is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
06-17-2013, 11:58 PM
  #153
jimmycarter
Registered User
 
jimmycarter's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2010
Posts: 3,948
vCash: 500
take $1.5 million off his contract and i have no problem with phaneuf.

jimmycarter is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
06-17-2013, 11:59 PM
  #154
zeke
#freewilly
 
zeke's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2005
Posts: 30,648
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by ULF_55 View Post
Top 10 for the past 4 votes
Weber and Chara every year. Others come in and out of the top 10, and are good defenders and there are quite a few good defenders.

2012-2013 James Norris Memorial Trophy Voting
1 Subban P.K. MTL 1266 66 56 35 12 3
2 Suter Ryan MIN 1230 65 54 34 8 8
3 Letang Kris PIT 914 31 37 42 39 18
4 Beauchemin Francois ANA 290 1 6 20 33 39
5 Chara Zdeno BOS 289 10 9 16 8 22
6 Keith Duncan CHI 281 1 8 16 36 27
7 Ekman-Larsson Oliver PHO 79 3 1 2 8 8
8 Weber Shea NSH 49 0 1 4 5 7
9 Doughty Drew LA 43 0 1 2 7 5
10 Kronwall Niklas DET 33 0 2 1 3 5
11 Phaneuf Dion TOR 28 0 1 1 4 4

2011-2012 Norris Trophy Voting
Pts. ( 1st-2nd-3rd-4th-5th)
1. Erik Karlsson, OTT 1,069 (66-31-32-9-5)
2. Shea Weber, NSH 1,057 (49-54-32-9-2)
3. Zdeno Chara, BOS 950 (32-48-47-19-2)
4. Alex Pietrangelo, STL 381 (0-7-20-68-28)
5. Nicklas Lidstrom, DET 132 (0-5-4-16-29)
6. Dan Girardi, NYR 70 (2-0-4-6-12)
7. Brian Campbell, FLA 58 (0-2-2-6-16)
8. Ryan Suter, NSH 57 (0-1-3-5-20)
9. Kris Letang, PIT 40 (0-0-4-3-11)
10. Dan Hamhuis, VAN 21 (0-1-0-3-5)

2010-2011 Norris Trophy Voting
Pts. ( 1st-2nd-3rd-4th-5th)
1 Nicklas Lidstrom DET 736 35 23 34 15 10
2 Shea Weber NSH 727 32 41 14 14 8
3 Zdeno Chara BOS 688 33 24 24 20 10
4 Lubomir Visnovsky ANA 573 20 20 26 28 19
5 Keith Yandle PHO 312 5 10 17 25 32
6 Kris Letang PIT 144 2 3 9 12 22
7 Dustin Byfuglien ATL 33 0 2 1 3 5
8 Christian Ehrhoff VAN 28 0 0 1 6 5
9 Duncan Keith CHI 24 0 1 1 3 3
10 Matt Carle PHI 8 0 1 0 0 1

2009-2010 Norris Trophy Voting
Pts. ( 1st-2nd-3rd-4th-5th)
1 Zdeno Chara BOS 1034 68 36 18 4 0
2 Mike Green WSH 982 50 53 19 4 4
3 Nicklas Lidstrom DET 733 14 34 58 19 8
4 Shea Weber NSH 186 0 4 11 25 28
5 Dan Boyle SJ 173 0 2 4 38 25
6 Duncan Keith CHI 95 0 2 4 14 19
7 Andrei Markov MTL 95 0 1 9 10 13
8 Mark Streit NYI 29 0 0 1 5 9
9 Brian Rafalski DET 27 1 0 0 4 5
10 Scott Niedermayer ANA 27 0 0 3 2 6
16. Dion Phaneuf, TOR 3 (0-0-0-1-0)

2008-2009 Norris Trophy Voting
# Player Team PTS 1st 2nd 3rd 4th 5th
1 Zdeno Chara BOS 1034 68 36 18 4 0
2 Mike Green WSH 982 50 53 19 4 4
3 Nicklas Lidstrom DET 733 14 34 58 19 8
4 Shea Weber NSH 186 0 4 11 25 28
5 Dan Boyle SJ 173 0 2 4 38 25
6 Duncan Keith CHI 95 0 2 4 14 19
7 Andrei Markov MTL 95 0 1 9 10 13
8 Mark Streit NYI 29 0 0 1 5 9
9 Brian Rafalski DET 27 1 0 0 4 5
10 Scott Niedermayer ANA 27 0 0 3 2 6
11 Dennis Wideman BOS 24 0 0 2 3 5
12 Dion Phaneuf CGY 17 0 0 2 2 1
13 Sheldon Souray EDM 16 0 1 1 1 1
14 Jay Bouwmeester FLA 9 0 0 1 0 4
15 Kimmo Timonen PHI 8 0 0 0 1 5
16 Brian Campbell CHI 3 0 0 0 1 0


Him not getting any votes in 10-11 was understandable, because he wasn't very good that year, but him not getting any votes in 11-12 was criminal. he was fantastic that year, sabotaged by awful goaltending.

zeke is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
06-18-2013, 12:01 AM
  #155
Dreakmur
Registered User
 
Dreakmur's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2008
Location: Orillia, Ontario
Country: Canada
Posts: 8,288
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Duffman955 View Post
Yes he does.
He does have the ability to contribute all the aspects of a total package, but doesn't have the brain to contribute them on a consistent basis.

Quote:
Originally Posted by iPunch View Post
Coulda fooled me
and he did...

Dreakmur is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
06-18-2013, 12:03 AM
  #156
zeke
#freewilly
 
zeke's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2005
Posts: 30,648
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by jimmycarter View Post
take $1.5 million off his contract and i have no problem with phaneuf.
39yr old gonchar and 36yr old streit, both #2/3 dmen at this point, b0th just signed for over $5m per year. Last summer, #2/3 dmen like wideman and carle signed for well over $5m per year.

at some point, people have to figure out that phaneuf at $6.5m is a bargain.

zeke is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
06-18-2013, 12:08 AM
  #157
Durrr
Registered User
 
Join Date: Sep 2012
Posts: 3,547
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by zeke View Post
He should have finished higher than 11th, as he was borderline top-5 this year, but i'm surprised that voters ranked him that high, even though he clearly deserved it....his reputation has been so thoroughly and unfairly trashed that i didn't think he'd ever recover in terms of public perception.

of course, the really funny thing is that he, along with a number of other guys on the top 10, are much better dmen than subban and letang.
It's become a race for the most points, now more then ever.

Durrr is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
06-18-2013, 12:12 AM
  #158
EscapeGoat
We The North
 
EscapeGoat's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2013
Location: The Hockey Mecca
Country: Canada
Posts: 3,610
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by jimmycarter View Post
take $1.5 million off his contract and i have no problem with phaneuf.
That's hilarious. Take a look at what other defencemen are signing for and then get back to me.

EscapeGoat is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
06-18-2013, 12:13 AM
  #159
Leafidelity
Way she goes...
 
Leafidelity's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2008
Country: Canada
Posts: 26,378
vCash: 1775
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dreakmur View Post
He does have the ability to contribute all the aspects of a total package, but doesn't have the brain to contribute them on a consistent basis.



and he did...
among defensemen

10th in points
t/5th in goals
11th in TOI
3rd in shifts per game


?

Leafidelity is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
06-18-2013, 12:18 AM
  #160
Durrr
Registered User
 
Join Date: Sep 2012
Posts: 3,547
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by zeke View Post
39yr old gonchar and 36yr old streit, both #2/3 dmen at this point, b0th just signed for over $5m per year. Last summer, #2/3 dmen like wideman and carle signed for well over $5m per year.

at some point, people have to figure out that phaneuf at $6.5m is a bargain.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dreakmur View Post
Dion doesn't bring that package....
Lol seriously it's embarrassing.

Quote:
among defensemen

10th in points
t/5th in goals
11th in TOI
3rd in shifts per game


?
6th overall in hits this year, 7th last year, 12th the previous.

Durrr is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
06-18-2013, 12:21 AM
  #161
Dreakmur
Registered User
 
Dreakmur's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2008
Location: Orillia, Ontario
Country: Canada
Posts: 8,288
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by iPunch View Post
among defensemen

10th in points
t/5th in goals
11th in TOI
3rd in shifts per game


?
The top 2 are partly due to him having a good season, and partly due to being very effective on the PP. His even strength scoring was pretty mediocre. Overall, he did have a very strong season in terms of offensive production.

The bottom 2 are a product of being on a very weak blue line. Carlyle is a big-time line-matcher, and Dion Phaneuf was his best option, so that inflated his playing time.

Dreakmur is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
06-18-2013, 12:24 AM
  #162
Durrr
Registered User
 
Join Date: Sep 2012
Posts: 3,547
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dreakmur View Post
The top 2 are partly due to him having a good season, and partly due to being very effective on the PP. His even strength scoring was pretty mediocre. Overall, he did have a very strong season in terms of offensive production.

The bottom 2 are a product of being on a very weak blue line. Carlyle is a big-time line-matcher, and Dion Phaneuf was his best option, so that inflated his playing time.
He was 9th in goals last year, 12th in points, 18th in assists, 7th in hits, 10th in ice time, 2nd in shifts. You done? You really have no argument other then your opinion of course.

Durrr is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
06-18-2013, 12:27 AM
  #163
zeke
#freewilly
 
zeke's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2005
Posts: 30,648
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kurtz View Post
I'm firmly in the Dion is a solid #1Dman camp, but I believe the shooting % refers to the % of SOG that go in, while Dion's big failing is missing the net entirely on his point shot a disturbingly large amount of time...
Nope, wrong again.

phaneuf is nowhere remotely close to the leaders in missed shots.

like most of the criticisms of phaneuf, the shooting percentage one us simply based on lies and ignirance.

it's just not even close to true, and you can easily go look up the stats that show that's not even close to true. he truth us phaneuf is one of the best shooting dmen in hockey, period.

BUT and this is important - we can all learn a lessn from this clear example.

if you are one of the people who has determined from "watching the game" that phaneuf misses way too many shots....just go look at the missed shots numbers on nhl.com to show yourself how wrong you are in your personal observations of "watching the game".

Then, take a step back and realize that you are wrong about phaneu missing too many shots because you are a biased leafs fan - when you watch hockey games, you simply notice phaneuf's mised shots more than you notice the missed shots by other defensemen. this is understandable, because you are watching your leafs.

now once you finally accept that you "watching the game" has clearly made you think phaneufmakes more bad shots than other dmrn, even though this is easily proven wrong in the numbers....then maybe, just maybe, you might start to think that maybe when you "watch the game" and think that phaneuf makes more bad plays or mistakes in general than other top defensemen, that this is just your own biased view getting it wrong again, and that you simply notice phaneuf's mistakes more because he plays for your team.

But make no mistake - if you watch the games and see that phaneuf misses more shots than other dmen, then you are not good at watching hockey - because the numbers cearly show us that dion misses FEWER shots than most other top sciring dmen.

so just ask yourself - if your eyes are lying to you about how many shots dion misses....why would you believe them when they tell you dion makes more mistakes than other top minute dmen?

zeke is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
06-18-2013, 12:29 AM
  #164
Dreakmur
Registered User
 
Dreakmur's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2008
Location: Orillia, Ontario
Country: Canada
Posts: 8,288
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Durrr View Post
He was top 10 in goals last year, 12th in points, 18th in assists
Yep, he had a good offensive season last year.

Quote:
10th in ice time, 2nd in shifts.
Again, he is surrounded by brutal defensemen. He received huge amounts of important ice time be default.

Quote:
You done? You really have no argument other then your opinion of course.
That's right, I'm basing my opinion on watching him play, and comparing him to the rest of the guys I watch. I never said he was a terrible defenseman. I think he's somewhere in the 20s rather than the 10s. It's not that big of a difference.

Dreakmur is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
06-18-2013, 12:30 AM
  #165
Durrr
Registered User
 
Join Date: Sep 2012
Posts: 3,547
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by zeke View Post
Nope, wrong again.

phaneuf is nowhere remotely close to the leaders in missed shots.

like most of the criticisms of phaneuf, the shooting percentage one us simply based on lies and ignirance.

it's just not even close to true, and you can easily go look up the stats that show that's not even close to true. he truth us phaneuf is one of the best shooting dmen in hockey, period.

BUT and this is important - we can all learn a lessn from this clear example.

if you are one of the people who has determined from "watching the game" that phaneuf misses way too many shots....just go look at the missed shots numbers on nhl.com to show yourself how wrong you are in your personal observations of "watching the game".

Then, take a step back and realize that you are wrong about phaneu missing too many shots because you are a biased leafs fan - when you watch hockey games, you simply notice phaneuf's mised shots more than you notice the missed shots by other defensemen. this is understandable, because you are watching your leafs.

now once you finally accept that you "watching the game" has clearly made you think phaneufmakes more bad shots than other dmrn, even though this is easily proven wrong in the numbers....then maybe, just maybe, you might start to think that maybe when you "watch the game" and think that phaneuf makes more bad plays or mistakes in general than other top defensemen, that this is just your own biased view getting it wrong again, and that you simply notice phaneuf's mistakes more because he plays for your team.

But make no mistake - if you watch the games and see that phaneuf misses more shots than other dmen, then you are not good at watching hockey - because the numbers cearly show us that dion misses FEWER shots than most other top sciring dmen.

so just ask yourself - if your eyes are lying to you about how many shots dion misses....why would you believe them when they tell you dion makes more mistakes than other top minute dmen?
You're so wise

Durrr is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
06-18-2013, 12:30 AM
  #166
Grant
LL Genius
 
Grant's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2012
Location: London
Country: Canada
Posts: 13,346
vCash: 95
Quote:
Originally Posted by zeke View Post
Nope, wrong again.

phaneuf is nowhere remotely close to the leaders in missed shots.

like most of the criticisms of phaneuf, the shooting percentage one us simply based on lies and ignirance.

it's just not even close to true, and you can easily go look up the stats that show that's not even close to true. he truth us phaneuf is one of the best shooting dmen in hockey, period.

BUT and this is important - we can all learn a lessn from this clear example.

if you are one of the people who has determined from "watching the game" that phaneuf misses way too many shots....just go look at the missed shots numbers on nhl.com to show yourself how wrong you are in your personal observations of "watching the game".

Then, take a step back and realize that you are wrong about phaneu missing too many shots because you are a biased leafs fan - when you watch hockey games, you simply notice phaneuf's mised shots more than you notice the missed shots by other defensemen. this is understandable, because you are watching your leafs.

now once you finally accept that you "watching the game" has clearly made you think phaneufmakes more bad shots than other dmrn, even though this is easily proven wrong in the numbers....then maybe, just maybe, you might start to think that maybe when you "watch the game" and think that phaneuf makes more bad plays or mistakes in general than other top defensemen, that this is just your own biased view getting it wrong again, and that you simply notice phaneuf's mistakes more because he plays for your team.

But make no mistake - if you watch the games and see that phaneuf misses more shots than other dmen, then you are not good at watching hockey - because the numbers cearly show us that dion misses FEWER shots than most other top sciring dmen.

so just ask yourself - if your eyes are lying to you about how many shots dion misses....why would you believe them when they tell you dion makes more mistakes than other top minute dmen?
I already pointed that out This was the follow up post on the next page.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kurtz View Post
Interesting finding. Looks like Dion got 68% of his shots in on goal this season, and 69% last season. This would actually place him better than average among his comparator group (other high volume dmen) in terms of accuracy.

Very surprising revelation to me, and I would imagine to many others on the board.

Grant is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
06-18-2013, 12:35 AM
  #167
Durrr
Registered User
 
Join Date: Sep 2012
Posts: 3,547
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dreakmur View Post
Yep, he had a good offensive season last year.



Again, he is surrounded by brutal defensemen. He received huge amounts of important ice time be default.



That's right, I'm basing my opinion on watching him play, and comparing him to the rest of the guys I watch. I never said he was a terrible defenseman. I think he's somewhere in the 20s rather than the 10s. It's not that big of a difference.
All I've read from you in this thread is turn down every positive about him, whats the point if you think hes a top 20 dman instead of top 10? Right now we don't have anyway to get a better #1 unless Rielly or Gardiner take the position, so enjoy the team as it starts to get competitive.

Durrr is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
06-18-2013, 12:37 AM
  #168
zeke
#freewilly
 
zeke's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2005
Posts: 30,648
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by LeafOfBread View Post
I'd put goalies close to defensemen too, yeah we were good when Potvin, Cujo and Belfour were around, but the last few years the goalie has been consistently the scapegoat. Hell, Reimer has one bad injury riddled half-season and everyone wants to run him out of town.
Actually, leaf fans and media spent far too long defending the likes of raycroft, toskala, and gustavsdon, while absolutely destroying the defensemen playing in front of them

meanwhile gus, toskala, raycroft go on to suck even worse for other teams with "good" defensemen, while all our crappy dmen like beauch, gill, kaberle go on to be key members if cup winning teams elsewhere.

It's only very, very recently that toronto has finally started turning on bad goaltending - it started in vesa and gus's final years, and continued on with reimer's bad second year.

and i agree that reimer isn't getting the credit he deserves, but at the same time he deserved the criticism last year because he did suck, even if he was injured.

don't worry - if reimer plays a full season next year and plays well, leafs nation will fall back in love with their goalies.

this city will always be a dman graveyard, and goalie heaven.

zeke is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
06-18-2013, 12:44 AM
  #169
zeke
#freewilly
 
zeke's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2005
Posts: 30,648
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by ACC1224 View Post
I know Weber is better even though, like most, I rarely if ever watch Nashville play.
Heh. exactly.

zeke is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
06-18-2013, 12:44 AM
  #170
Dreakmur
Registered User
 
Dreakmur's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2008
Location: Orillia, Ontario
Country: Canada
Posts: 8,288
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Durrr View Post
All I've read from you in this thread is turn down every positive about him, whats the point if you think hes a top 20 dman instead of top 10? Right now we don't have anyway to get a better #1 unless Rielly or Gardiner take the position, so enjoy the team as it starts to get competitive.
All I said negative was that he is too stupid to be consistent, which is why I rank him lower than others. You never know what kind of game Phaneuf is going to play, or even what kind of shift. To me, I would much rather have a slightly lesser player who I can rely on to play consistently every game and every shift.

Dreakmur is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
06-18-2013, 12:48 AM
  #171
WestCoastLeafs
Team Ramrod
 
WestCoastLeafs's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2013
Posts: 1,197
vCash: 500
Not completely related to his position in Norris voting, but I see Dion gettnig 7 years of at least $7.5M. And he's worth it - by the end of the deal the cap should be comfortably over $100M.

WestCoastLeafs is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
06-18-2013, 12:49 AM
  #172
The_Chosen_One
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jul 2006
Location: Melbourne, Australia
Posts: 4,110
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dreakmur View Post
The top 2 are partly due to him having a good season, and partly due to being very effective on the PP. His even strength scoring was pretty mediocre. Overall, he did have a very strong season in terms of offensive production.

The bottom 2 are a product of being on a very weak blue line. Carlyle is a big-time line-matcher, and Dion Phaneuf was his best option, so that inflated his playing time.
He was even more stronger on the defensive side. I don't see why he's being considered an offensive defenceman when his puck moving ability is quite poor. His skating isn't even that elite. Instead, it's his ability to shut down top lines and still produce offensively that makes him a pretty dangerous defenceman.

You're obviously going to see poor +/- if he 's up against the top lines and largely starting in the defensive zone. His real problem is that he needs a partner that can move the puck out of the zone better than him. A more physical/ stronger defensively Gardiner or a more mobile Franson would be his ideal partner.

The_Chosen_One is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
06-18-2013, 12:52 AM
  #173
zeke
#freewilly
 
zeke's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2005
Posts: 30,648
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Durrr View Post
It's become a race for the most points, now more then ever.
Points are important...and karlsson last year made sense because he scored SO MANY more than anyone else.

thi year, though, there wasn't nearly enough of a gap in scoring to make subban and leyang nominees.

zeke is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
06-18-2013, 01:00 AM
  #174
zeke
#freewilly
 
zeke's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2005
Posts: 30,648
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dreakmur View Post
The top 2 are partly due to him having a good season, and partly due to being very effective on the PP. His even strength scoring was pretty mediocre. Overall, he did have a very strong season in terms of offensive production.

The bottom 2 are a product of being on a very weak blue line. Carlyle is a big-time line-matcher, and Dion Phaneuf was his best option, so that inflated his playing time.
Weak blueline?

Finished 17th in gaa, even without a "proven #1 goalie", led the league in dcoros hits, and amongst the league leaders in dcorps blocks, dcorps goals and dcorps points.

team finished top-10 in the league, and top-5 if you ignore the shootouts. finished 3rd in regulation wins. The likely cup winner needed overtime of game 7 to beat them in the playoffs.

All while being one if the youngest and least experienced dcorps in hockey.

what makes you think they were a "very weak" defense?

zeke is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
06-18-2013, 01:02 AM
  #175
zeke
#freewilly
 
zeke's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2005
Posts: 30,648
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Grant View Post
I already pointed that out This was the follow up post on the next page.
Nice work! My bad.

zeke is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Forum Jump


Bookmarks

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off



All times are GMT -5. The time now is 02:48 AM.

monitoring_string = "e4251c93e2ba248d29da988d93bf5144"
Contact Us - HFBoards - Archive - Privacy Statement - Terms of Use - Advertise - Top - AdChoices

vBulletin Copyright ©2000 - 2015, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
HFBoards.com is a property of CraveOnline Media, LLC, an Evolve Media, LLC company. 2015 All Rights Reserved.