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Phaneuf 11th in Norris voting

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Old
06-18-2013, 02:02 AM
  #176
ajpro20
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Originally Posted by Dreakmur View Post
It's pretty simple - Doughty played a bigger role on a better team. He has much stiffer competition for ice time, but still played significantly more minutes than Pheneuf.

Doughty's defensive game is much better than Phaneuf's.
How does doughty play a bigger role then phaneuf. Phaneuf is the captain of the biggest market in the league. There isn't a bigger role then that man. Doughty may have a better game, but their is clear evidence that phaneuf had a better season. With Phaneuf having way more pressure then Doughty and still doing better means a lot as well.

Looking at the ice time too. They average about the same.

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06-18-2013, 02:40 AM
  #177
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Originally Posted by ajpro20 View Post
How does doughty play a bigger role then phaneuf. Phaneuf is the captain of the biggest market in the league. There isn't a bigger role then that man. Doughty may have a better game, but their is clear evidence that phaneuf had a better season. With Phaneuf having way more pressure then Doughty and still doing better means a lot as well.

Looking at the ice time too. They average about the same.
Doughty played quite a bit more than Phaneuf - about 1 and 1/4 minutes - and he did it while playing for a much stronger blue line.

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06-18-2013, 02:44 AM
  #178
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Originally Posted by Dreakmur View Post
Doughty played quite a bit more than Phaneuf - about 1 and 1/4 minutes - and he did it while playing for a much stronger blue line.
He had a better supporting cast, yet looked worse than phaneuf and produced less as well.

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06-18-2013, 02:56 AM
  #179
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He had a better supporting cast, yet looked worse than phaneuf and produced less as well.
How many LA games did you watch this year? Based on that comment, I would guess very few, if any. There's a very big difference between scoring a few less points and "looking worse".

I agree Doughty has a stronger supporting cast, and that's why playing 26.4 minutes is so much more impressive than Phaneuf playing 25.2.

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06-18-2013, 03:47 AM
  #180
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Originally Posted by Dreakmur View Post
How many LA games did you watch this year? Based on that comment, I would guess very few, if any. There's a very big difference between scoring a few less points and "looking worse".

I agree Doughty has a stronger supporting cast, and that's why playing 26.4 minutes is so much more impressive than Phaneuf playing 25.2.
Phaneuf was a lot more defensively-oriented utilized, though. When it comes to utilization, he was used quite similar to Weber. That is, against top possession monsters and he produced quite well offensively.

Phaneuf is a #1D and he's a total steal at $6.5 million.

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06-18-2013, 03:56 AM
  #181
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Originally Posted by The_Chosen_One View Post
Phaneuf was a lot more defensively-oriented utilized, though. When it comes to utilization, he was used quite similar to Weber. That is, against top possession monsters and he produced quite well offensively.

Phaneuf is a #1D and he's a total steal at $6.5 million.
Again, this has a lot to do with being surrounded by garbage and playing for a coach who is a big-time line-matcher.

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06-18-2013, 04:25 AM
  #182
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Actually, leaf fans and media spent far too long defending the likes of raycroft, toskala, and gustavsdon, while absolutely destroying the defensemen playing in front of them

meanwhile gus, toskala, raycroft go on to suck even worse for other teams with "good" defensemen, while all our crappy dmen like beauch, gill, kaberle go on to be key members if cup winning teams elsewhere.

It's only very, very recently that toronto has finally started turning on bad goaltending - it started in vesa and gus's final years, and continued on with reimer's bad second year.

and i agree that reimer isn't getting the credit he deserves, but at the same time he deserved the criticism last year because he did suck, even if he was injured.

don't worry - if reimer plays a full season next year and plays well, leafs nation will fall back in love with their goalies.

this city will always be a dman graveyard, and goalie heaven.
That is true. Our defensive core is the main reason why Riemer produced quite well. If we can pair Phaneuf with someone who can move the puck confidently, our top 4 will be set. Maybe Gardiner will be Phaneuf's partner.

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06-18-2013, 04:41 AM
  #183
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Originally Posted by Dreakmur View Post
Again, this has a lot to do with being surrounded by garbage and playing for a coach who is a big-time line-matcher.
I wouldn't say that our defensive core is garbage. Offensively-speaking Gardiner and Franson are top pairing, while Franson demonstrated that he's at least top 4 defensively. More so, Gunarsson resembles Hjalmarsson and is a pretty decent mid-pairing guy.

As for minutes, Pronger was receiving ~22 minutes when he was healthy. No one is going to argue that if he was still healthy, he'd probably be the best defenceman in the NHL. In fact, Weber TOI was 25:55 which is quite similar to Phaneuf TOI was 25:10 despite Nashville having a much weaker D core.

A top pairing of Phaneuf - Gardiner would improve our transition and make us a lot more credible on the counterattack. Our D core doesn't have to be drastically revamped to be playoffs-grade.

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06-18-2013, 06:30 AM
  #184
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Originally Posted by Daisy Joy View Post
i agree, it tends to go like this

Goaltenders (unless you REALLY suck, see Toskala)
Forwards




Defensemen.
i think the last defenseman that no one had a real problem with was Yuskevitch.
I agree with you generally. Goaltenders tend to get pretty overrated in TO unless they are absolutely horrendous.

But we have appreciated some defensemen along the way. Kaberle was a fan favorite and cornerstone of the franchise as a PMD and PPQB for a while. McCabe had his moments. Berrard was a fan favorite. Gardiner is now becoming a fan favorite; everyone was fawning over his play in the playoffs.

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06-18-2013, 07:13 AM
  #185
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I agree with you generally. Goaltenders tend to get pretty overrated in TO unless they are absolutely horrendous.

But we have appreciated some defensemen along the way. Kaberle was a fan favorite and cornerstone of the franchise as a PMD and PPQB for a while. McCabe had his moments. Berrard was a fan favorite. Gardiner is now becoming a fan favorite; everyone was fawning over his play in the playoffs.
Toronto tends to perform more offensive-oriented defenceman. Those who can move the puck well while skating well. Someone like Phaneuf doesn't fall under that category.

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06-18-2013, 07:47 AM
  #186
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I hate the people who still say he's not a #1 d-man. I understand if you say he is not an elite dman (perennial Norris candidate, I would only consider Weber, Chara and Karlsson in this category at this point) but to say he's not a #1 D is just foolish. He wouldn't be a #1 D on a cup contender? NJ of last year and Vancouver of 2 years ago say hi. Both were cup finalsts.

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06-18-2013, 09:55 AM
  #187
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Originally Posted by Dreakmur View Post
The top 2 are partly due to him having a good season, and partly due to being very effective on the PP. His even strength scoring was pretty mediocre. Overall, he did have a very strong season in terms of offensive production.

The bottom 2 are a product of being on a very weak blue line. Carlyle is a big-time line-matcher, and Dion Phaneuf was his best option, so that inflated his playing time.
Dion Phaneuf - 57% of points via PP
PK Subban - 68% of points via PP

Both had identical ES points.

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06-18-2013, 10:04 AM
  #188
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Originally Posted by wulfio View Post
you cannot define a hockey player by stats. for the love of god strap on the skates before you talk about hockey.

Phaneuf is slow footed, has low hockey iq, stone hands, and below average first pass.

He IS NOT a #1 dman on a stanley cup winner, and the sooner you people understand that, the better off you'll be. There are 30 #1 C, 30 #1 D, 30 #1 goalies, etc. This does not mean there are 30 C's, D's, and goalies capable of leading their team to a cup.

If phaneuf was a 2nd/3rd dman on our roster, thats when we'll be contenders.
I'd be curious to see your list of teams whose defense features 2nd and/or 3rd defensemen of Phaneuf's calibre.

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06-18-2013, 10:29 AM
  #189
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We can all agree or disagree on the merits or failings of Phaneuf the hockey player, but with his pending UFA status after next season, what Nonis does with him...either sign him long term or jettison him in a trade will define the Leafs for a while. (Same applies to Kessel, but the decision there would be more obvious...need to lock him up.)

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06-18-2013, 10:41 AM
  #190
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The biggest difference between Phaneuf and some other top defensemen is that he doesn't have the endurance to play well for 25+ minutes per game. It doesn't mean that he's not a #1D, but it does mean that management had better find some better top 4 talent to keep his icetime closer to 21-23 per game.

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06-18-2013, 10:44 AM
  #191
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Parkdale View Post
We can all agree or disagree on the merits or failings of Phaneuf the hockey player, but with his pending UFA status after next season, what Nonis does with him...either sign him long term or jettison him in a trade will define the Leafs for a while. (Same applies to Kessel, but the decision there would be more obvious...need to lock him up.)
I would suggest Phaneuf and a top pairing defender and a Norris nominee would be a higher priority to resign for those that support a team building concept of "building from the goalie out, with strong defense and strength down the middle".

Phaneuf is more important to the Leaf than Kessel on position alone. Finishing 11th in Norris voting places him among the upper echelon of Dmen so there are not a lot of Dmen out there (never mind available options), where the team could upgrade on him. Besides he was named Team Captain which also puts leadership into the equation as a factor to consider here.

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06-18-2013, 10:46 AM
  #192
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Leaf fans amaze me. Very few have a "let's at least be happy with what we DO have" attitude. Instead it's more like "Phaneuf isn't a hybrid of Chara and Karlsson? OVERRATED BUM!"

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06-18-2013, 11:00 AM
  #193
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Like it or not, the Leafs arent letting him walk, and his new contract will be over 6.5mil per season.

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06-18-2013, 11:29 AM
  #194
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Dion playing alongside one of Gardiner or Rielly will definitly make Phaneuf look a lot better.... although i would debate he is always a #1 Dman since coming over from Calgary.

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06-18-2013, 12:20 PM
  #195
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Originally Posted by Cap'n Flavour View Post
The biggest difference between Phaneuf and some other top defensemen is that he doesn't have the endurance to play well for 25+ minutes per game. It doesn't mean that he's not a #1D, but it does mean that management had better find some better top 4 talent to keep his icetime closer to 21-23 per game.
Phaneuf has perennially been one of the best dmen in the league, playing some of the most minutes in the league. He has no problem playing a ton of minutes, and playing them well. He matched all the other top minute defensemen this year again.

The only problem with Phaneuf this year is that for some reason Randy Carlyle decided that Korbinian Holzer should play alongside him on the top pairing for half the year.

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06-18-2013, 12:25 PM
  #196
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Originally Posted by The_Chosen_One View Post
I wouldn't say that our defensive core is garbage.
It's pretty bad. The fact that Kostka out played everyone outside Dion Phaneuf tells us how bad they were.

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Offensively-speaking Gardiner and Franson are top pairing, while Franson demonstrated that he's at least top 4 defensively.
top pairing? Lets wait for Gardiner to play a season as a top pairing defenseman before we call him one. Right now, I would call him a #4.

Franson must be the only guy who has proven that he's at least a top-4 defenseman without ever being a top-4 defenseman. Sure, he looked good last season, and it's the first time I ever thought he actually played like a #4 guy, but once again, we should wait for him to actually do it in a full season.

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More so, Gunarsson resembles Hjalmarsson and is a pretty decent mid-pairing guy.
Gunnarsson would be a good complimentary #4/5 on a contender.

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As for minutes, Pronger was receiving ~22 minutes when he was healthy. No one is going to argue that if he was still healthy, he'd probably be the best defenceman in the NHL.
Pronger's career average is well over 27 minutes.

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In fact, Weber TOI was 25:55 which is quite similar to Phaneuf TOI was 25:10 despite Nashville having a much weaker D core.
I've always thought Weber was over-rated.

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A top pairing of Phaneuf - Gardiner would improve our transition and make us a lot more credible on the counterattack.
That pair would be a disaster in the defensive zone.

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Our D core doesn't have to be drastically revamped to be playoffs-grade.
We need a #1/2, and a #6. The #6 is easy, but that top pairing guy is going to be very tough to get.

Dion Phaneuf - __________
Carl Gunnarsson - Jake Gardiner
__________ - Cody Franson

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06-18-2013, 12:27 PM
  #197
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Originally Posted by eyeball11 View Post
Dion Phaneuf - 57% of points via PP
PK Subban - 68% of points via PP

Both had identical ES points.
That's a good argument that Subban shouldn't have been close to a Norris.

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06-18-2013, 12:35 PM
  #198
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Originally Posted by Dreakmur View Post
Doughty played quite a bit more than Phaneuf - about 1 and 1/4 minutes - and he did it while playing for a much stronger blue line.
The Kings play an extreme defensive system, and have a great goalie, and managed to give up about 10 non-empty net goals fewer than the Leafs did.

But seriously, what is so great about this blueline?

1. D.Doughty
2. S.Voynov
3. R.Scuderi
4. J.Muzzin
5. M.Greene
6. K.Ellerby
7. A.Martinez

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06-18-2013, 12:36 PM
  #199
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The Kings and Leafs, remember, finished with pretty much the exact same record and goal differential this year.

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06-18-2013, 12:58 PM
  #200
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Beauch!

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