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The Business of Hockey Discuss the financial and business aspects of the NHL. Topics may include the CBA, work stoppages, broadcast contracts, franchise sales, expansion and relocation, and NHL revenues.

Relo vs Expansion - The Pros and Cons of QC and SEA

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Old
06-18-2013, 05:58 PM
  #251
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Quote:
Originally Posted by maruk14 View Post
Yeah - I wouldn't compare them to Minnesota. Maybe San Jose with upside?
Yeah San Jose has built a solid fan-base. It has a surrounding area that is the target of what the NHL fan-bases usually consist of. Highly educated and affluent people, not all but this is their paying customer when you look at NHL studies, it is who they pander to.

But in this respect it would be like if you plopped San Jose in downtown San Francisco with what it has going for it in terms of fan-base down in San Jose. It is kind of a hybrid of those markets and it is a huge tv grab in terms of the surrounding area as well. Not a bad idea at all.

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06-18-2013, 06:01 PM
  #252
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Originally Posted by kdb209 View Post
As someone who spent 2 seasons driving up to the Palace of Fine Cows, let me say I think you are vastly overrating the effect of a temporary venue.
LOL Palace of Fine Cows. You good sir win the thread.

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06-18-2013, 06:11 PM
  #253
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I think you're seriously overestimating the effect of the Phoenix problems on the NHL's image amongst the general sports-watching public.
yeah, not a single person cares. I don't even think most fans are aware that the league still owns the Coyotes.

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Originally Posted by LeafShark View Post
We can use San Jose as well, which also has similar revenues, but it also draws on the San Francisco area.
Yeah, but they're very similar hockey markets. And the rationale is the same for being in both.

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06-18-2013, 07:09 PM
  #254
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Originally Posted by kdb209 View Post
As someone who spent 2 seasons driving up to the Palace of Fine Cows, let me say I think you are vastly overrating the effect of a temporary venue.

An "inadequate" Key Arena will have no impact on Television or media coverage and will have negligible effect on fans watching live - and any negative effects will greatly be outweighed by the new toy syndrome and monopoly over the winter sports coverage.
Monopoly? NCAA/NFL football takes you into Sept-Jan, sports that will greatly overshadow the NHL. The NHL is basically getting 6 months of exclusive coverage to risk losing millions in a bad situation to start. Get the $300 million from Quebec now without losing millions in Seattle for 2 years then collect your $220 million when Seattle is ready.

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06-18-2013, 07:32 PM
  #255
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the NFL is one day a week, though

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06-18-2013, 07:38 PM
  #256
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Chris Daniels ‏@ChrisDaniels5 29m
I'm also told by people close to situation more than 11k seats could be sold in Key for #NHL. Number closer to 13k, plus suites.

Just to bring what Mr Daniels says recently regarding the seating capacity for Key arena for hockey.


He also goes on to say 2k of those 13 will be obstructed views.

Note i trust the judgement of our owners. They have most likely been in key arena to get a general idea of the seating.

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06-18-2013, 07:42 PM
  #257
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QC's problem is simply, the realignment that came out. If it wasn't for that if all teams were free agents as far as what conference they could play in, then, I would say it makes pretty much the same amount of sense for the NHL to take the Coyotes to QC, maybe even slightly more.

However, if they did, that this year, the NHLPA, would scream that that puts the "Nordiques" at the big time competitive disadvantage, playing out of the Pacific (can't assume that Colorado would just say, "ok, we will switch so QC can go to the Central", even if that happened, it still would be fairly bad travel wise). Switching them to the East, via force, would either make the NHLPA unhappy, since, that would make it even easier for the Western Teams to make the playoffs vs. the Eastern Teams, assuming they were just placed there without a move by Detroit or Columbus back to the East. If Det or CBJ were forced back West, I can expect CBJ to sue the league, since they wanted to get out of the West, to make their overall product more attractive (a lot more games in their time zone, a lot less in 2 or 3 time zones away). Wouldn't be shocked if Detroit did that as well, even though, a move back West, wouldn't hurt them as much as Columbus. They would look at it more for the angle (or equally) about lost revenue and interest, from not playing 4 of the 5 original 6 teams that they could play more being in the East.
If this was the Devils, in trouble, I'm sure QC would without a doubt, be plan B, over Seattle and Seattle would be more likely the expansion team, if it ever takes place.


Last edited by beenhereandthere: 06-19-2013 at 12:06 AM.
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06-18-2013, 08:06 PM
  #258
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Originally Posted by beenhereandthere View Post
QC's problem is simply, the realignment that came out. If it wasn't for that if all teams were free agents as far as what conference they could play in, then, I would say it makes pretty much the same amount of sense for the NHL to take the Coyotes to QC, maybe even slightly more.

However, if they did, that this year, the NHLPA, would scream that that puts the "Nordiques" at the big time competitive disadvantage, playing out of the Pacific (can't assume that Colorado would just say, "ok, we will switch so QC can go to the Central", even if that happened, it still would be fairly bad travel wise). Switching them to the East, via force, would either make the NHLPA unhappy, since, that would make it even easier for the Western Teams to make the playoffs vs. the Eastern Teams, assuming they were just placed there without a move by Detroit or Columbus back to the East. If Det or CBJ were forced back East, I can expect CBJ to sue the league, since they wanted to get out of the West, to make their overall product more attractive (a lot more games in their time zone, a lot less in 2 or 3 time zones away). Wouldn't be shocked if Detroit did that as well, even though, a move back East, wouldn't hurt them as much as Columbus. They would look at it more for the angle (or equally) about lost revenue and interest, from not playing 4 of the 5 original 6 teams that they could play more being in the East.
If this was the Devils, in trouble, I'm sure QC would without a doubt, be plan B, over Seattle and Seattle would be more likely the expansion team, if it ever takes place.
I find it weird that realignment would be the big issue when Winnipeg just played two season in the East. In fact how hard would it be to scrap the whole thing and just do a Winnipeg/Quebec swap. Detroit won't like it but they been playing for 30 years in the West two more won't kill them. Hell the Leafs also played in the west for a while send them back! God only know how tired I am of my Habs starting and ending every freaking season in Toronto! Is it an issue? Sure. Is it a deal breaker? Not a chance.

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06-18-2013, 09:24 PM
  #259
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Originally Posted by madhi19 View Post
I find it weird that realignment would be the big issue when Winnipeg just played two season in the East. In fact how hard would it be to scrap the whole thing and just do a Winnipeg/Quebec swap. Detroit won't like it but they been playing for 30 years in the West two more won't kill them. Hell the Leafs also played in the west for a while send them back! God only know how tired I am of my Habs starting and ending every freaking season in Toronto! Is it an issue? Sure. Is it a deal breaker? Not a chance.
At this point as he said lawsuits are very real as a measurement to deter this. If the league forks over the 100 or 200 million dollar Detroit will lose in television and advertising dollars on their next contracts, sure. And they could lord it over them, but just as likely there are enough teams out there right now to completely kill a QC vote on the floor. These aren't fans voting, these are businessman with millions of dollars invested. Seattle is also a real option so for a lot of them it would be picking Seattle over Quebec City or just indifference by many teams over who exists. The teams hunting to avoid Quebec City win out here.

Detroit, Columbus, Colorado are pretty easy No on the vote in terms of the domino effect on their conference positioning.

Would the West coast teams vote for a closer team.... I think so.

So LA, Anaheim, Vancouver, Edmonton, San Jose, and Calgary all vote it down, with Seattle as a viable option.

Dallas likely votes No, for fear of if Toronto 2 somehow ever gets off the ground they become a target to go back to the far west. Now all they have to do is wrangle one additional vote although who knows how that works with 29 teams instead of thirty.

You have to think Toronto and Montreal are pretty easily sold on the no vote as well. Toronto because of ownership and what it means to their media rights in that region. Montreal was never that big of a fan for existence in the first place. Comcast own NBC and the Flyers, perhaps they don't approve of passing on Seattle.

This is why Seattle's emergence as a place the league wants to be spells so much trouble. They have very few detractors in moving from Phoenix to Seattle. Nobody will get their nose out of joint on it, nobody will wrangle the votes to kill it. This is not the case for Quebec anymore with Seattle validly on the table.

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06-18-2013, 10:01 PM
  #260
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Originally Posted by Ugmo View Post
I don't see hit. The NHL is taking an image hit right now by having a team hemorrhage money by playing in a half-filled arena. A move to QC would be a net positive for the NHL's image.

Okay, replacing a struggling U.S. market with a presumably stronger U.S. market would also be a net positive, but the image hit the NHL would take by going to QC would be minimal at most.
I think this is something of an oversold argument. Where exactly is the NHL taking an image hit? Are fans and sponsors in the other 29 markets spending less $ because the NHL has a "negative" image with the handling of the Coyotes?

I don't think the NHL brass in NY and the owners are the least concerned about Image around NA while sorting out the Phoenix fiasco. If there's any Image concern to the NHL at all I would say its the potential negative image of a team leaving a city after the locals spent a lot of public $ to build a shiny new arena for an NHL team.

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06-18-2013, 10:06 PM
  #261
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I don't think the NHL brass in NY and the owners are the least concerned about Image around NA while sorting out the Phoenix fiasco. If there's any Image concern to the NHL at all I would say its the potential negative image of a team leaving a city after the locals spent a lot of public $ to build a shiny new arena for an NHL team.
Pretty much how Seattle after the 1995 renovations to key arena and 10 years later they wanted a new arena.

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06-18-2013, 10:16 PM
  #262
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the NFL is one day a week, though
Still takes up the airwaves and everyone's attention. Lots of this board have acknowledged the very real reality of NHL teams in NFL cities and life after the NFL/NCAA season ends.

The "jumpstart in fandom" won't happen.

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06-18-2013, 11:21 PM
  #263
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Going with a News/Updates Only thread.

Phoenix / Seattle / Quebec Updates Only Thread


For those seeking just the updates, please venture there. Encourage referencing, please, the thread above when posting any news/updates or C&P any of those updates from that thread in here.

Again... NEWS ONLY! - Discussions occur in the other appropriate threads

Thank you,

Carry On

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06-18-2013, 11:22 PM
  #264
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Pretty much how Seattle after the 1995 renovations to key arena and 10 years later they wanted a new arena.
No, a more comparable analogy would be if the Sonics actually got their new arena and the NBA still left less than 10 years after it was built.

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06-19-2013, 12:12 AM
  #265
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I find it weird that realignment would be the big issue when Winnipeg just played two season in the East. In fact how hard would it be to scrap the whole thing and just do a Winnipeg/Quebec swap. Detroit won't like it but they been playing for 30 years in the West two more won't kill them. Hell the Leafs also played in the west for a while send them back! God only know how tired I am of my Habs starting and ending every freaking season in Toronto! Is it an issue? Sure. Is it a deal breaker? Not a chance.
Winnipeg in the East, well, the furthest rival, was FLA, that was about 2100 miles away in 1 time zone ahead. Only 4 other teams in that Conference anyway. QC in the Pacific or Western Division, would be, a longest trip of 3200 miles and 3 time zones, to San Jose and they would have to travel more (or at least as much, since all the teams will play each other at least twice this season) than Winnipeg did. Once this realignment was approved, QC, became an option of last resort, only, if a Western town like Seattle or Kansas City (and of course Glendale), couldn't make it work there for next year.
I could be wrong, but I understand that the teams, next year, will only play a home and away (1 of each) against teams not in their own conference. That means that a QC team in the West would have their closest conference rival, 1k away (Chicago). Anyone, who doesn't see that as putting a team at a serious competitive disadvantage, is blindly partisan.

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06-19-2013, 12:49 AM
  #266
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No, a more comparable analogy would be if the Sonics actually got their new arena and the NBA still left less than 10 years after it was built.
i'd suggest hamilton, but building half an arena doesnt count.

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06-19-2013, 05:52 AM
  #267
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It's possible, be it even probable.

The only thing is that I can't see the NHL expanding into 2 Canadian markets (Markham and Quebec) at the same time and leave the U.S out of it.

Press would be all over that.
As I see it, that's actually the only way for the 'yotes to stay in PHX: The league would need more Canadian, big-revenue generating teams to subsidze the 'yotes.

As an Isles fan, Markham actually makes sense: you have the Original 6, prestigious/pretensious team downtown (or midtown, as the case may be) and then, in the suburbs, or at least on the other side of a bridge, the other team, always and forever to be known as the 'other team', no matter how many Stanley Cups they won in a row (when I was 12)

And then we get to re-hash the whole realignment thing!

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06-19-2013, 12:38 PM
  #268
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Article on why the's no rumours on Qc City

http://translate.google.com/translat...01%26bih%3D612

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06-19-2013, 01:13 PM
  #269
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I Can't find any RFP for the Key Arena...

https://www.ebidexchange.com/Solicit...b-37cb20108045

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06-19-2013, 01:20 PM
  #270
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I Can't find any RFP for the Key Arena...

https://www.ebidexchange.com/Solicit...b-37cb20108045
Cause nothing has been approved yet. Its all on Seattle actually getting the coyotes.

When hansen agreed on improvements to the key and the lease for a basketball team, that was put on hold after the NBA voted to keep the kings in sacramento.

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06-19-2013, 02:12 PM
  #271
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Cause nothing has been approved yet. Its all on Seattle actually getting the coyotes.

When hansen agreed on improvements to the key and the lease for a basketball team, that was put on hold after the NBA voted to keep the kings in sacramento.
Well In quebec the bid have been received... Cloc is ticking for Seattle to be ready isn't it

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06-19-2013, 02:18 PM
  #272
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Well In quebec the bid have been received... Cloc is ticking for Seattle to be ready isn't it
Oh good grief. Just cause nothings been approved doesn't mean it hasn't been agreed to in principal.

You have no darn idea of how settle politics work. You ever heard of I-91. Seattle can't just throw money out for sports stuff unless it has a return.

It doesn't matter what Quebec does. It all depends on what the NHL wants to do.

Just cause quebec city may be further ahead in the arena process doesn't mean they are guaranteed that they are getting the coyotes.

Seattle was way further ahead than Sacramento for the kings and guess what Seattle didn't get the kings. It means squat.

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06-19-2013, 02:24 PM
  #273
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Well In quebec the bid have been received... Cloc is ticking for Seattle to be ready isn't it
If all of this is true as you claim then why not have QC as your "Plan B" if the NHL were serious about potentially moving the Coyotes east?

And preliminary plans to retrofit the Key for hockey has already been done (lighting, replay booths, dressing rooms, etc), and has been done for quite awhile. In addition, sounds like a temporary lease has been negotiated with the potential owners and the city council.

Last - here is the agreement Hansen and his group reached with hte city to manage Key Arena - not the $750k payment for an NHL team to use the building. My assumption is if they put this much effort into including the NHL and agreeing to the lease they have a plan to get the building ready ... they didn't do all that "just because".

http://www.seattle.gov/arena/docs/13...eAgreement.pdf

Couple more notes - the attached agreement is with "arenaco" so there would need to be no major changes to this document for the NHL since they are written into the agreement.

Also - as I mentioned, upgrades needed have been outlined by Hansen to the city before.

http://blog.seattlepi.com/seattlespo...do-arena-plan/


Refinish of team and official locker rooms and other key BOH (back of house) areas.
Reconfiguration of event level space to create NHL and NBA team suites, with modern amenities and infrastructure.

Upgrade data and audio/visual backbones to bring the building to more modern standards.
Add a semi-permanent event level club.
Refinish a portion of lower bowl seats.
Renovate three lower level concessions concourses.
Remodel existing Champions Club.
Reconfigure sports lighting to NHL standards.
Add camera locations consistent with modern league standards.
Create NHL replay review room.
Refurbish ice making equipment.
Refurbish retractable seating sections.
POS (point of sale, or checking stands) fixed-position upgrades.
Refurbish fixed kitchen equipment.
Upgrade fixed bowl signage program.
Required life safety improvements.


Last edited by maruk14: 06-19-2013 at 02:31 PM.
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06-19-2013, 02:27 PM
  #274
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I just hope Seattle wants the NHL for hockey and not as a way to get the NBA faster :|

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06-19-2013, 02:30 PM
  #275
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Plan B stuff came from the mayir and not the NHL ... all mayor would say that ...*Bettman Just asked him to low expectation... He told the same thing to the QC city mayor this spring....

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