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The 2012-13 NHL-NHLPA CBA

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Old
03-24-2014, 10:27 PM
  #101
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Hawkscap View Post
Anyone know how the Hawks can have 51 players signed to a SPC and not be in violation of the 50 limit rule? Really 52 but MacNeil is in the JRs and played less than 10 games?
Chicago only has 49 players on its reserve list according to Capgeek

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Old
03-24-2014, 10:39 PM
  #102
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Hawkscap View Post
Anyone know how the Hawks can have 51 players signed to a SPC and not be in violation of the 50 limit rule? Really 52 but MacNeil is in the JRs and played less than 10 games?
If there are kids 18/19 and playing in CHL, those don't count.

If the contract won't start until next season, it doesn't count "now".


(Sharks have 49 active contracts, plus two kids in CHL. And they've signed two undrafted free agents to ELCs that will start in the fall.)

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03-25-2014, 05:02 AM
  #103
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McNeil is the only CHLer that falls under that rule.

Cap Geek is wrong right now. They are missing van Riemsdyk and Carey. They are at 51 contracts and one exemption.

The CBA states 50 signed SPCs. Nothing about when a contract goes into effect that I can find. The penalty for going over is losing a draft pick.

Correction: Cap Geek's reserve list has two exemptions one being Teuvo . If correct then when he plays his 10th game Hawks go over.

The only problem I have with exempting Teuvo is that the CBA says exemption for CHL players only with the slide

(a) Not more than 50 Players signed to an SPC and not less than 24 Players and 3
goalkeepers under an SPC. Age 18 and age 19 Players who were returned to Juniors, and who
have not played 11 NHL Games in one season, shall be exempt from inclusion in the 50 Player
limit.

Any Club violating this provision shall be liable to loss of draft choices as determined by
the Commissioner.

With Juniors being defined
"Major Juniors" or "Juniors" means the Canadian Hockey League, including the
Western Hockey League, Ontario Hockey League and the Quebec Major Junior Hockey League.


Last edited by Hawkscap: 03-25-2014 at 07:03 AM.
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03-25-2014, 07:06 AM
  #104
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van Riemsdyk's deal doesn't start until 2014/15. He doesn't count. The same goes for Fournier and his ELC. I'm not sure about Carey.

Hartman's contract will slide, Teuvo's could slide although I think he'll play 10+ games.

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03-25-2014, 07:10 AM
  #105
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Hawkster View Post
van Riemsdyk's deal doesn't start until 2014/15. He doesn't count. The same goes for Fournier and his ELC. I'm not sure about Carey.

Hartman's contract will slide, Teuvo's could slide although I think he'll play 10+ games.

The rule states signed SPCs not active contracts. If it was for when players who had contracts for next year, there would not be a need for a CHL exemption.

"Reserve List" means the list of all Players to whom a Club has rights including
all Unsigned Draft Choices, all Players signed to an SPC (whether or not currently playing in the
NHL), and all Players who have signed an SPC but who have subsequently been returned to
Juniors. A Club may have on its Reserve List, at any one time, not more than 90 Players, which
shall include the following:
(a) Not more than 50 Players signed to an SPC and not less than 24 Players and 3
goalkeepers under an SPC. Age 18 and age 19 Players who were returned to Juniors, and who
have not played 11 NHL Games in one season, shall be exempt from inclusion in the 50 Player
limit.
Any Club violating this provision shall be liable to loss of draft choices as determined by
the Commissioner.

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03-25-2014, 07:22 AM
  #106
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I'm pretty sure that contracts that kick in after June 30th, do not count against the 50 man limit until the next season.

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03-25-2014, 07:34 AM
  #107
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Hawkster View Post
I'm pretty sure that contracts that kick in after June 30th, do not count against the 50 man limit until the next season.
But, then why the exemption for CHL players with the slide?

I know it is semantics but the CBA clearly says signed SPCs. I just can't find anything that says active contracts; just signed SPCs (whether or not they are in the NHL) with the exemption of the CHL/Slide Rule.

I think a case could be made that the Hawks are over 50.

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03-25-2014, 11:15 AM
  #108
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Hawkscap View Post
But, then why the exemption for CHL players with the slide?
Because those contracts are in effect for the current season. Completely different situation.

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03-25-2014, 11:56 AM
  #109
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Van Riemsdyk and Carey most likely have not signed Standard Player Contracts. Because they are not contracted until 2014/15, they most likely signed an agreement agreeing to the material terms of the SPC, but not an SPC itself. Interestingly, the NHL reported that the hawks have agreed to terms with Van Riemsdyk, but nowhere in the article does it mention the word "signed."

link: http://blackhawks.nhl.com/club/news.htm?id=711038

If they have an agreement to sign an SPC, but haven't signed one yet, then the players are excluded from the Reserve List.

Additionally, I don't think Teuvo is exempt because, as pointed out above, he can't be sent to juniors. However, Capgeek counts Teuvo as one of the 49 on the Reserve List, so this is not an issue.

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03-25-2014, 06:30 PM
  #110
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As if last night Cap Geek had him as a slider with McNeil.

Carey might be playing for the Hawks tonight.

Quote:
Originally Posted by IME View Post
Van Riemsdyk and Carey most likely have not signed Standard Player Contracts. Because they are not contracted until 2014/15, they most likely signed an agreement agreeing to the material terms of the SPC, but not an SPC itself. Interestingly, the NHL reported that the hawks have agreed to terms with Van Riemsdyk, but nowhere in the article does it mention the word "signed."

link: http://blackhawks.nhl.com/club/news.htm?id=711038

If they have an agreement to sign an SPC, but haven't signed one yet, then the players are excluded from the Reserve List.

Additionally, I don't think Teuvo is exempt because, as pointed out above, he can't be sent to juniors. However, Capgeek counts Teuvo as one of the 49 on the Reserve List, so this is not an issue.

The intent to sign sounds like a violation to the spirit of the rule. Think of the advantage of signing players that big market and successful teams have.

Mouser said that there CBA clarifications that we just don't know about and the answer might lie there.

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03-26-2014, 02:35 AM
  #111
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I'm pretty confident they've already signed the contracts, or will before July 1st. The CBA/NHL/NHLPA allow contracts to be signed that don't take effect until the next season.*

*There are limitations for which players can sign contracts like this, and not all players can. However all draftees a team holds rights to are allowed to sign for the upcoming season.


Last edited by mouser: 03-26-2014 at 02:46 AM.
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03-27-2014, 01:53 PM
  #112
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mouser View Post
I'm pretty confident they've already signed the contracts, or will before July 1st. The CBA/NHL/NHLPA allow contracts to be signed that don't take effect until the next season.*

*There are limitations for which players can sign contracts like this, and not all players can. However all draftees a team holds rights to are allowed to sign for the upcoming season.
I guess signed SPCs doesn't actually mean signed SPCs.

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05-07-2014, 07:11 PM
  #113
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The CBA vs verbal agreement?

http://www.freep.com/apps/pbcs.dll/a...=2014305060038

Quote:
Daniel Cleary is in a different boat [than other pending UFAs on the Wings]. When he rejoined the Wings on the urging of coach Mike Babcock last September, it was with a verbal agreement that Cleary would be employed by the Wings beyond this season. Given how poorly this season went for Cleary — he was unproductive before becoming a healthy scratch, and then finished the spring injured — he is likely to be offered a front-office job.
http://www.wingingitinmotown.com/201...rbal-agreement

Quote:
The question here is whether they can have such a verbal agreement. It seems the NHL would frown upon promising things to a player which seem to hinge on how little he signs for. The answer is that they might, but there's a lot of problematic burden in stopping it.

I'll make this clear right off the bat: there is nothing in the CBA which expressly forbids a team's front office from discussing a player's future after his contract. There's really nothing expressly forbidding a verbal agreement to hire a guy after his playing days are over or to say you want to sign him for one year and then try to re-sign him the next if he wants to keep playing. None of this is illegal, as long as it's disclosed.

Quote:
Originally Posted by CBA
19. The Club and the Player represent and warrant that there are no undisclosed agreements of any kind, express or implied, oral or written and that there are no promises, undertakings, representations, commitments, inducements, assurances of intent, supplements or understandings of any kind between the Player or his Certified Agent and the Club that have not been disclosed to the NHL, with regard to: (i) any consideration of any kind to be paid, furnished or made available during the term of the SPC or thereafter; and/or (ii) and future renegotiation, extension, amendment or termination of this SPC.
So, was there a proper declaration to the league?

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05-07-2014, 07:23 PM
  #114
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As I see it, as long as there isn't a contract to process it's not a league matter. I think this is saying that even though there may be an agreement in principal, until there's a signed contract there is no contract. Not sure where you're going with this.

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06-18-2014, 09:29 AM
  #115
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reporterchris 7:28am via Twitter for iPhone More on the Stanley Cup playoff bonus pool. See how much every team gets to split among its players: http://t.co/LF8dAsAOHQ

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06-18-2014, 10:15 AM
  #116
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Quote:
Originally Posted by LadyStanley View Post
reporterchris 7:28am via Twitter for iPhone More on the Stanley Cup playoff bonus pool. See how much every team gets to split among its players: http://t.co/LF8dAsAOHQ

Good find, LS.

The question will come up, so:

Quote:
The total playoff pool is due to grow to $17 million before the current CBA expires and none of the money paid out of it affects a team’s standing with the salary cap. It is simply a bonus in every sense of the word.

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06-19-2014, 07:35 PM
  #117
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http://www.cbssports.com/nhl/eye-on-...-parameters-ok

NHL clarifies rules for free agent interviews

From NHL memo:
Quote:
"Please be advised that clubs are permitted to discuss the potential interest in as well as general parameters of a potential future contractual relationship with another club's pending RFA or UFA during the applicable interview periods. The clubs may not enter any agreements or make any binding offers, promises, ... oral or written concerning the terms of a potential SPC (standard players contract) with another club's pending RFA or UFA."
...
What is on the table now? Teams and players can share what they're looking for in deals but can't actually negotiate or present figures. The hope is that knowing what a player will be looking for in a free-agency deal, when the FA period does open on July 1, the initial part of negotiations will be taken care of already -- i.e., what everybody wants -- and the frenzy can return

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06-21-2014, 12:07 AM
  #118
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Quote:
Originally Posted by LadyStanley View Post
http://www.cbssports.com/nhl/eye-on-...-parameters-ok

NHL clarifies rules for free agent interviews

From NHL memo:
Reading through the articles I have to disagree with the quoted interpretation.

Quote:
What is on the table now? Teams and players can share what they're looking for in deals but can't actually negotiate or present figures.
The operative language being the earlier quoted bit:
Quote:
“Please be advised that clubs are permitted to discuss the potential interest in as well as general parameters of a potential future contractual relationship with another club’s pending RFA or UFA during the applicable interview periods. The clubs may not enter any agreements or make any binding offers, promises, … oral or written concerning the terms of a potential SPC (standard players contract) with another club’s pending RFA or UFA.”
Much of this language is straight out of the CBA section on Circumvention. I read this as teams and players being able to discuss specific contract details, however the team and player are not allowed to commit themselves to any future contract terms prior to the July 1st signing period kickoff.

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07-11-2014, 08:55 AM
  #119
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Question

Player A's ELC

______Salary_______Bonus
year 1 $1,000,000 $0
year 2 $1,000,000 $500,000
Year 3 $1,000,000 $1,000,000

average cap hit is $1,500,000

In year 3, he hit all his bonuses, so he actually makes more money than his average cap hit. Made $2 mil vs his cap charge of $1,500,000

If that extra $500k in bonuses over his average causes the team to go over the cap, would there be a cap penalty?

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07-11-2014, 10:43 AM
  #120
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Hawkscap View Post
Question

Player A's ELC

______Salary_______Bonus
year 1 $1,000,000 $0
year 2 $1,000,000 $500,000
Year 3 $1,000,000 $1,000,000

average cap hit is $1,500,000

In year 3, he hit all his bonuses, so he actually makes more money than his average cap hit. Made $2 mil vs his cap charge of $1,500,000

If that extra $500k in bonuses over his average causes the team to go over the cap, would there be a cap penalty?
If the bonus money causes the team to go over the cap, it is applied to the next season's cap charge, and no, no penalty. Teams can exceed the cap due to LTIR or bonus charges (up to 7.5% cushion).

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07-11-2014, 10:51 AM
  #121
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Originally Posted by Fugu View Post
If the bonus money causes the team to go over the cap, it is applied to the next season's cap charge, and no, no penalty. Teams can exceed the cap due to LTIR or bonus charges (up to 7.5% cushion).
That is what I meant by cap penalty. Sorry about that.

This makes some small changes to some team. It can give you more or less cap room depending on the bonus. Technically the average cap hit with bonus is not real, if the bonus fluctuates from year to year.

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07-11-2014, 11:01 AM
  #122
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Hawkscap View Post
That is what I meant by cap penalty.

This makes some small changes to some team. It can give you more or less cap room depending on the bonus. Technically the average cap hit with bonus is not real, if the bonus fluctuates from year to year.

It's the same thing as having varying amounts of actual pay per year, but for cap purposes, only the average is used. Consider Weber's contract, where he received $13 million in signing bonuses for the first two years-- well in excess of what his cap hit is, $7.8 MM.

To get his cap hit, the entire sum is divided by the term, as you know. What he actually gets paid is quite different to the cap hit.

I know that you're focusing on varying the bonus potential. The cap hit will still use the entire salary, inclusive of potential, to compute the cap hit. When the bonus cannot be reached, the team gains that space back for that year. Only bonus and LTIR money can be pushed off. (I think we're saying the same thing, but I wanted to clarify.)

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07-11-2014, 11:37 AM
  #123
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Fugu View Post
(I think we're saying the same thing, but I wanted to clarify.)

Got it. Frog Protection. (hopefully you get the reference)

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Old
07-11-2014, 03:30 PM
  #124
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Fugu View Post
It's the same thing as having varying amounts of actual pay per year, but for cap purposes, only the average is used. Consider Weber's contract, where he received $13 million in signing bonuses for the first two years-- well in excess of what his cap hit is, $7.8 MM.

To get his cap hit, the entire sum is divided by the term, as you know. What he actually gets paid is quite different to the cap hit.

I know that you're focusing on varying the bonus potential. The cap hit will still use the entire salary, inclusive of potential, to compute the cap hit. When the bonus cannot be reached, the team gains that space back for that year. Only bonus and LTIR money can be pushed off. (I think we're saying the same thing, but I wanted to clarify.)
Just wanted to point out that only performance bonus overages are pushed to the next season. LTIR exceptions don't create any carry over.

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09-08-2014, 08:36 PM
  #125
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Can anybody explain this contract to me

http://www.capgeek.com/player/1729

Calvin De Haan

First Year - 1M
Second Year - 2.4M
Third Year - 2.5M

I thought the difference between the lowest paid year and highest paid year has to be 50%, as it stands the difference between the first and third years is 40%

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