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Jonathan Toews has four goals in his last 41 playoff games

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Old
06-27-2013, 09:38 AM
  #676
Frank the Tank
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Originally Posted by LSnow View Post
Statistics show that Crosby actually bleeds as much goals agaisnt as Ovetshkin. This myth that Crosby somehow is great two-way player need to end.
Really? From Behind the Net:

5-on-5 GF/GA (min 20 games)
RankPlayerGF OnGA OnDiff+/- On/60
1Sidney Crosby4921+283.01
4Jonathan Toews4518+272.39
137Alex Ovechkin4134+70.56

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06-27-2013, 09:54 AM
  #677
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Originally Posted by Number 9 View Post
When are you going to man up and admit you were wrong about his injury status? You also said if it turns out he wasn't injured you admit he should be blasted for his what 6 goals 44 games?

Do you what me to quote the posts you made or will you man up?
Honestly your obsession over this is a bit extreme. It has been less than a week since the cup has been awarded. We just found out yesterday that Bergeron has been in the hospital since game 6. It takes time before all these things come out. Contrary to what you seem to think, there is no official injury list that comes out as soon as the cup is awarded documenting every injury sustained. If we have not heard anything over the next 2 weeks about Toews' injury then yes I will admit that he deserved some criticism for his lack of goalscoring during these playoffs.

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06-27-2013, 10:13 AM
  #678
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Originally Posted by Chelios View Post
Honestly your obsession over this is a bit extreme. It has been less than a week since the cup has been awarded. We just found out yesterday that Bergeron has been in the hospital since game 6. It takes time before all these things come out. Contrary to what you seem to think, there is no official injury list that comes out as soon as the cup is awarded documenting every injury sustained. If we have not heard anything over the next 2 weeks about Toews' injury then yes I will admit that he deserved some criticism for his lack of goalscoring during these playoffs.
Right away they put what was wrong with Bergeron.

You have this inability to admit that Toews wasn't hurt. We have heard about Bickell and his injury is much more serious than a hand or a wrist injury.

So let me get this straight? They report about a busted knee but not a sore wrist? Come on take off the glasses!

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06-27-2013, 10:29 AM
  #679
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Originally Posted by Number 9 View Post
Right away they put what was wrong with Bergeron.

You have this inability to admit that Toews wasn't hurt. We have heard about Bickell and his injury is much more serious than a hand or a wrist injury.

So let me get this straight? They report about a busted knee but not a sore wrist? Come on take off the glasses!
A worthy crusade you are on. Even if they don't disclose he had an injury that doesn't necessarily mean he did not have one anyway.

At this point I do not care; yes, he had a mediocre playoffs by his standards. However, when they needed him to step it up in game 6 he did. He was a huge part of the game 6 win and I'll be happy enough with that, not to mention him outplaying his competition in every round (from an overall standpoint).

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06-27-2013, 11:06 AM
  #680
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Originally Posted by Kurtosis View Post
A worthy crusade you are on. Even if they don't disclose he had an injury that doesn't necessarily mean he did not have one anyway.

At this point I do not care; yes, he had a mediocre playoffs by his standards. However, when they needed him to step it up in game 6 he did. He was a huge part of the game 6 win and I'll be happy enough with that, not to mention him outplaying his competition in every round (from an overall standpoint).
All I'm asking for is Mr. Chelios to admit he was making an excuse that wasn't true! That's it.

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06-27-2013, 11:22 AM
  #681
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06-27-2013, 11:31 AM
  #682
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Quote:
ESPN Chicago ‏@ESPNChiHawks
Mayers says Toews has turned into unbelievable leader, compares to Messier. Says Toews willed them to victory in Game 6.
Good call by Mayers.

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06-27-2013, 11:33 AM
  #683
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Originally Posted by KEEROLE Vatanen View Post
i can't believe Toews is getting so much credit for having two cups, he was awful in the 2010 final, yet that is completely glossed over. then in 2013 he sucks 90% of the post season, plays a couple good games along the way and we get 2 time cup winner shoved in our faces for a guy that was a passenger on the ride
Are you out of your god damn mind? Or are offensive numbers the only thing that makes a forward's performance "good" to you? Toews' offensive production WAS low for him this playoffs... but you should really take into account all of the OTHER things he does to help his team win: win faceoffs, RARELY turns the puck over, takes the puck AWAY from the other team often, plays a great defensive game... and oh yeah, scores some clutch goals and sets up some clutch goals along the way

Another user on here posted Toews' turnover/takeaway ratio for these playoffs and it is unbelievable, really. Something like 3 turnovers and 20ish takeaways? That is insane and is EXACTLY the type of thing that helps your team win.

Notice how I didn't compare Toews to Crosby because I don't give a F about that BS.

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06-27-2013, 11:40 AM
  #684
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Originally Posted by Frank the Tank View Post
I am not insulting your intelligence, I am just questioning your ability to communicate it effectively as you often resort to hyperbole, arbitrary metrics, and vague descriptions.

Toews and Kane are superstar players that have proven they can win championships. Among the two of them, yes, Toews is one of the most complete players in the NHL. Personally, I have him ranked in my top-10 best players in the league. All that being said, his better defensive abilities do not make up for him having produced 40% less offense than a player like Crosby, who also have very strong 5-on-5 GF/GA ratios. If we were comparing the value of Toews to his team compared to a pure scorer like Ovechkin, who scores a lot, but also bleeds goals against, I would agree that Toews provides better value.

Now over a single playoffs, stretch of season, etc... could Toews provide better value to his team than Crosby? Yes, because the gap is not that large; however, over their careers to date Crosby have proven to be a more productive player in "winning his match-ups." It is not pure offense or defense involved in such evaluations, but a combination of the two. The fundamental point being that Toews does not provide a significant enough extra defensive contribution to overcome his 40% reduced offensive production.
But... aren't we talking about THIS playoffs? Over THIS playoffs, Toews was a more complete player than Crosby.

I would argue that Toews DOES provide a significant enough extra defensive contribution to overcome his 40% reduced offensive production. Yeah, Toews didn't produce offensively as much as he could've, but all it takes is one turnover (or takeaway FOR him) to put him in a position to score (see the 5-hole goal against Rask) and he usually executes. Furthermore, you could look at how Toews did against Boston compared to how Crosby did. Toews' performance was at a higher level than Crosby's against the Bruins.

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06-27-2013, 11:41 AM
  #685
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Originally Posted by Number 9 View Post
The injury list has come out and he's not on it. Only thing I read was he had his bell rung. If he's injured why would they hide it now?
Brian Hedger ‏@BrianHedger
Q didn't relate exactly what it was but intimated Toews had a separate injury issue he was dealing with through bulk of playoffs.

"Separate," meaning separate from whatever it was he sustained in Game 5 of the Boston series.

Run along now, take your hate somewhere else.

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06-27-2013, 11:49 AM
  #686
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Originally Posted by Chris Hansen View Post
Brian Hedger ‏@BrianHedger
Q didn't relate exactly what it was but intimated Toews had a separate injury issue he was dealing with through bulk of playoffs.

"Separate," meaning separate from whatever it was he sustained in Game 5 of the Boston series.

Run along now, take your hate somewhere else.
Yeap! He got his bell rung and they didn't want to report it and have him go thru the NHL mandated concussion process!

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06-27-2013, 11:50 AM
  #687
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Originally Posted by Number 9 View Post
Yeap! He got his bell rung and they didn't want to report it and have him go thru the NHL mandated concussion process!
That has nothing to do with what I posted - which proved Chelios right and you wrong - but okay.

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06-27-2013, 12:05 PM
  #688
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I don't think Toews was any more banged up than anyone else on the ice. But I can't help but roll my eyes seeing Toews get ripped on for not putting up big numbers when we had to hear how elite guys like Suter, Zetterberg, Bergeron, Chara, etc. are defensively and then those same guys were all tasked with smothering Toews. Of course he didn't put up a lot of points, these premiere guys are draped over him and when he does get a little time and space to make things happen then elite goaltenders like Rask, Quick and to a lesser extent a very hot Howard are staring him in the face. We saw what Zetterberg did to Crosby in the 08 Final and it seems like a similar gameplan was employed on Toews every series.

It wasn't til Kane was on his line where the defense had to spread itself a bit more thin and Toews had the room to make things happen. Toews is no offensive dynamo, he's just a very solid all around guy. If you're putting the best defensive forwards and d-men in the league on him with elite goaltenders behind them then yeah he's not going to get a lot done.

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06-27-2013, 12:25 PM
  #689
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Originally Posted by Fanned On It View Post
But... aren't we talking about THIS playoffs? Over THIS playoffs, Toews was a more complete player than Crosby.

I would argue that Toews DOES provide a significant enough extra defensive contribution to overcome his 40% reduced offensive production. Yeah, Toews didn't produce offensively as much as he could've, but all it takes is one turnover (or takeaway FOR him) to put him in a position to score (see the 5-hole goal against Rask) and he usually executes. Furthermore, you could look at how Toews did against Boston compared to how Crosby did. Toews' performance was at a higher level than Crosby's against the Bruins.
No, the context of this particular discussion was about who would one start a franchise with, which is why I was discussing historical averages. The debate, IMO, centered around what balance of offensive/defensive contribution was more desirable.

Based on GF/GA over the past 5 seasons (from Behindthenet.ca), Crosby produces 40% more offense and allows 25% more goals than Toews. Therefore, Crosby is more likely than Toews to "win his match-up" against the line he is playing. And yes, over the course of a single playoffs Toews is close enough to Crosby (as is Datsyuk and Bergeron) that he could out-perform anyone.

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06-27-2013, 12:35 PM
  #690
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Originally Posted by Number 9 View Post
Yeap! He got his bell rung and they didn't want to report it and have him go thru the NHL mandated concussion process!
Did you miss "through the bulk of the playoffs"? He got his bell rung in game 5 of the finals.

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06-27-2013, 01:35 PM
  #691
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Originally Posted by Chelios View Post
Did you miss "through the bulk of the playoffs"? He got his bell rung in game 5 of the finals.
As I told you long ago the burden of proof is on you! As of right now all we know is didn't have the injuries you claimed and until it comes out that did your injury theory is not proven!

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06-27-2013, 02:15 PM
  #692
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I'd still take him over countless of other players around the league, including Malkin, Ovechkin and Stamkos.

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06-27-2013, 02:31 PM
  #693
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Originally Posted by Hawkaholic View Post
I'd still take him over countless of other players around the league, including Malkin, Ovechkin and Stamkos.
Me too, and Ovie is my favorite player. And for the playoffs I take he or Bergeron easily over Crosby. They bring so much more than can ever be measured on a stat sheet.

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06-27-2013, 06:55 PM
  #694
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Originally Posted by Number 9 View Post
As I told you long ago the burden of proof is on you! As of right now all we know is didn't have the injuries you claimed and until it comes out that did your injury theory is not proven!
No one but you gives a crap about his injuries possibly not being there. His team won the Cup, his point total doesn't matter anymore. He is a better player than you've given him credit for and all you look like is a fool in here.
No one has to prove a single thing to you, least of all Toews or Chelios.


Last edited by Rabid Husky: 06-27-2013 at 07:02 PM.
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06-28-2013, 04:03 PM
  #695
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Originally Posted by Hawkaholic View Post
I'd still take him over countless of other players around the league, including Malkin, Ovechkin and Stamkos.
Me too. He's the complete package. Decent size, sweet scoring touch, great vision and play making ability, selke award winning D and perhaps the best leader this league has seen since Messier. How anyone can question this guy's talent because he didn't score X amount of goals in the playoffs is beyond me.

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06-28-2013, 04:14 PM
  #696
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awesome!

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Old
06-28-2013, 04:14 PM
  #697
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He sucks, trade him

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06-28-2013, 05:06 PM
  #698
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Originally Posted by OhHolyToews View Post
What does a Sharks fan know about winning when it counts?

I'll take the guy who has won the Cup twice in the last few years...
I know you intended this to be an insult but this is exactly the point. As a Sharks fan i know intimately well that if you are not producing, it doesn't matter a **** how much you are outplaying the other team.

The goals have to come from SOMEWHERE. In the case of the Hawks, crucial scoring has come from depth lines. Without that luxury, Toews arguably doesn't have either Cup, but definitely this second one.

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06-28-2013, 05:17 PM
  #699
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Man this guy blows. 7th pick straight up?

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06-30-2013, 09:33 AM
  #700
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Originally Posted by Rabid Husky View Post
No one but you gives a crap about his injuries possibly not being there. His team won the Cup, his point total doesn't matter anymore. He is a better player than you've given him credit for and all you look like is a fool in here.
No one has to prove a single thing to you, least of all Toews or Chelios.
So when a guys comes and says "if the guy turns out to not be hurt I will admit he hasn't been playing well" he should not have come here and back is excuse/claim?

That is not proving anything to me. It's called being a man and admitting he was wrong!

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