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CBC Go Public: Should junior hockey fights be subject to criminal charges?

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06-18-2013, 04:14 PM
  #26
danishh
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i dont know if everyone remembers the Jonathan Roy incident in the QMJHL or not (http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/montre...athan-roy.html), but he was suspended 7 games and the province filed assault charges (for which he was aquitted).

In this incident, alliance didnt use any supplemental discipline. The league has automatic suspensions for fighting... 2 for first time offenders, 4 for second time, etc. Essentially the league did nothing.

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06-18-2013, 04:24 PM
  #27
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Quote:
Originally Posted by danishh View Post
i dont know if everyone remembers the Jonathan Roy incident in the QMJHL or not (http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/montre...athan-roy.html), but he was suspended 7 games and the province filed assault charges (for which he was aquitted).

In this incident, alliance didnt use any supplemental discipline. The league has automatic suspensions for fighting... 2 for first time offenders, 4 for second time, etc. Essentially the league did nothing.

Note Jonathan Roy was not a minor while the two midget players are minors.

Jonathan Roy pled guilty, apologized, received an absolute discharge allowing him to travel to the USA. Gave $5.000 to charity.

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06-18-2013, 04:40 PM
  #28
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Originally Posted by sandysan View Post
it most certainly does, its the essential definition of a deterrant. For a lot of people, accepting league mandated justice is far less of a deterrant than getting your hat publically handed to you.
There is no proof that fighting is a deterrant. Hextall was the most violent goalies in the history of the game yet he got ran all the time.


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I've watched my fair share of hockey and if you dont think you can get your dance card punched by intentionally snowing the goalie in a blow out game i'm not sure what's left to say. And guys going into a fight dont know how its going to end, but if a teamate of the tunee had stepped up in defense of his teamate, that's laudable. decrying it based on the consequences ( which the fighter cannot predict going in) is wrong and shortsighted.
This is the problem with hockey mentality. This is similar to saying "piss on my lawn, I attack you and land 10 bombs on your head." It makes no sense. If this was done outside of the rink he would be charged witrh assualt.

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06-18-2013, 04:50 PM
  #29
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Originally Posted by danishh View Post
i dont know if everyone remembers the Jonathan Roy incident in the QMJHL or not (http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/montre...athan-roy.html), but he was suspended 7 games and the province filed assault charges (for which he was aquitted).

In this incident, alliance didnt use any supplemental discipline. The league has automatic suspensions for fighting... 2 for first time offenders, 4 for second time, etc. Essentially the league did nothing.
In the NHL the closest that comes to mind is the carkner/boyle go two years ago where I think he got a game ( if I remember right) because boyle thought if he didnt answer the bell, that carkner would leave him alone. He was mistaken.

I also had no problem with ryan white tuning up fleischmann after he ran georges in the numbers even though white-fleischmann is a huge mismatch under any condition and fleischmann is almost always a stand up guy. thats entirely different than going after a guy who clearly wants nothing to do with you and who hasnt done anything the way guys like mirasty did in the khl ( which is an embarrasment).

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06-18-2013, 05:01 PM
  #30
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Originally Posted by canucksfan View Post
There is no proof that fighting is a deterrant. Hextall was the most violent goalies in the history of the game yet he got ran all the time.




This is the problem with hockey mentality. This is similar to saying "piss on my lawn, I attack you and land 10 bombs on your head." It makes no sense. If this was done outside of the rink he would be charged witrh assualt.
so in the absence of proof either way, we should disregard the opinion of greater than 95% players past and present and simply accept that you have somehow devined a deeper understanding of the game than the very people actually having to face the very real consequences? In the absence of definitive proof, I'll side with the experts and that aint your side. my support for fighting dies the day the players say its no longer necessary.

I have no problem with there being immediate and swift consequences for people who take liberties, so long as they do it in the least injurious way. Get rid of fighting ( and lets face it thats a pipe dream) and guys seek retribution with sticks and knees.

You know who has no problem with hockey fights, the refs, coaches, GMs, players past and present, the overwhelming majority of the fans and the league itself. You know who does, a minority of fans. Yeah lets pretend they have equivalent influence on the game.

If I checked you into the glass storefront from the sidewalk, that would also be assault. So would, upon seeing your puffy jacket, shoot frozen vulcanized rubber at you at high speed.

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06-18-2013, 05:06 PM
  #31
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In this situation? No... not even close. It's pretty apparent that this game was getting out of hand, this kid snowed the goalie to start **** and then got beaten up a bit. This is just a case of parents being tools.

However, of course there are certain situations that if they truly do cross the line should of course face legal action. McSorely on Brashear, Simon on Hollweg are 2 that I believe severely cross the line of "just hockey".

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06-18-2013, 05:08 PM
  #32
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Originally Posted by sandysan View Post
so in the absence of proof either way, we should disregard the opinion of greater than 95% players past and present and simply accept that you have somehow devined a deeper understanding of the game than the very people actually having to face the very real consequences? In the absence of definitive proof, I'll side with the experts and that aint your side. my support for fighting dies the day the players say its no longer necessary.
Hockey players are traditional which is why for the longest time they didn't want to bring in a mandatory visor rule despite numerous eye injuries.

Quote:
I have no problem with there being immediate and swift consequences for people who take liberties, so long as they do it in the least injurious way. Get rid of fighting ( and lets face it thats a pipe dream) and guys seek retribution with sticks and knees.

You know who has no problem with hockey fights, the refs, coaches, GMs, players past and present, the overwhelming majority of the fans and the league itself. You know who does, a minority of fans. Yeah lets pretend they have equivalent influence on the game.
Find where I said I want to get rid of fighting.

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If I checked you into the glass storefront from the sidewalk, that would also be assault. So would, upon seeing your puffy jacket, shoot frozen vulcanized rubber at you at high speed.
Different context. Both of those are within the rules.

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06-18-2013, 08:38 PM
  #33
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"His parents reluctantly agreed to let him play hockey provided he sits out games against Brampton" ..... just wow could never imagine my parents at 16 treating me like a mewling child and saying that boy on that team really kicked your ass you are not allowed to play games against them anymore.

Respect to thousands of hockey moms out there who have seen their child get dummied in hockey and not acted like he was assaulted at the corner store.

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06-19-2013, 01:22 AM
  #34
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If your going to antagonize than you have to be ready for the consequences. That's the message I would send my kid anyway. It's a tough world. You can't piss people off and expect no retribution

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06-19-2013, 02:10 AM
  #35
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I think this is a situation that charges can be laid. I mean cmon you snow shower the goalie ok you get a few shots when your up. Come on people he is knocked to the ice hard and brutally beaten when down, leaving him with a broken nose and concussion. You look at the NHL you do not see that often, they just pin down the player and exchange words and then they are done. I would press charges to if I were they parents of that child that was too far.

A fight should never have injuries like that well possibly a broken nose but a concussion. This is sick and that offender deserves to be punished.


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06-19-2013, 08:50 AM
  #36
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Cross checking the kid I have no problem with. If you snow the goalie, then expect something coming your way, but beating on the kid while he was down on the ice was WAY over the line. The officials need a serious pay cut for letting this get as bad as it did.

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06-19-2013, 08:58 AM
  #37
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Originally Posted by NashtyAttack View Post
Cross checking the kid I have no problem with. If you snow the goalie, then expect something coming your way, but beating on the kid while he was down on the ice was WAY over the line. The officials need a serious pay cut for letting this get as bad as it did.
Agreed totally outside of the bolded part, as we weren't there, you don't' know if it was official incompetence that let it escalate, or two teams that were just going to stir the pot regardless.

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06-19-2013, 09:14 AM
  #38
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Agreed totally outside of the bolded part, as we weren't there, you don't' know if it was official incompetence that let it escalate, or two teams that were just going to stir the pot regardless.
Let me rephrase that. I'm upset with the officials for not breaking it up sooner. There's no reason that kid should have been able to get 10 or so punches in.

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06-19-2013, 09:29 AM
  #39
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Different context. Both of those are within the rules.
But that's not what you said. If you want to apply the law to sporting events, you can't pick and choose to rail against fighting, or more specifically you can't do it without looking like a hypocrite.
When you choose to participate in hockey you accept that there are inherent risks, and as long as boys and men have laced them up, one of those risks is fighting. Leagues can do their best to try and legislatively reduce the occurrence of fights, but the risk is never reduced to zero.

When I was this kids age, I saw a couple of scraps. Most of them were nothing but juvenile displays, except one where the meekest player on the team stood up for a teamate who got seriously run. Yeah he got tossed and suspended ( everyone knew it would happen) but no one ever said he should not have done it.

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06-19-2013, 10:19 AM
  #40
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sandysan View Post
But that's not what you said. If you want to apply the law to sporting events, you can't pick and choose to rail against fighting, or more specifically you can't do it without looking like a hypocrite.
When you choose to participate in hockey you accept that there are inherent risks, and as long as boys and men have laced them up, one of those risks is fighting. Leagues can do their best to try and legislatively reduce the occurrence of fights, but the risk is never reduced to zero.

When I was this kids age, I saw a couple of scraps. Most of them were nothing but juvenile displays, except one where the meekest player on the team stood up for a teamate who got seriously run. Yeah he got tossed and suspended ( everyone knew it would happen) but no one ever said he should not have done it.
So you would contend that there is an inherent risk of receiving ten clean shots and having your nose broken and sustaining a concussion when snowing the goalie?

If that was the case, one would think we'd see almost no snowing of the goalie.

Can I ask one question, how far is too far for you? What if one of the shots hit him in the eye and he was blinded for life, would that be an inherent risk? What if a shot hit his hear and he was deafened on one side?

I never come to this forum, but it's a fun one.

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06-19-2013, 10:52 AM
  #41
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Originally Posted by Gobias Industries View Post
So you would contend that there is an inherent risk of receiving ten clean shots and having your nose broken and sustaining a concussion when snowing the goalie?

If that was the case, one would think we'd see almost no snowing of the goalie.
Yes that is precisely what i am saying. If you snow the goalie you can EXPECT that the other team will take offense. Upon this offense the players may wish to voice their displeasure for the transgression, and one of the ways they may do that is by dropping the gloves. If someone engages you with fisticuffs, deciding that you dont want to throw them and the expectation that the opponent will stop throwing them is one that is fraught with danger.

I agree with the last statement, which is why I anticipate that the tunee is not likely to do it again now that he is acutely aware of the consequences. If the tuner had done nothing, I suspect that the tunee would be far more inclined to do it again.

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06-19-2013, 10:56 AM
  #42
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Yes that is precisely what i am saying. If you snow the goalie you can EXPECT that the other team will take offense. Upon this offense the players may wish to voice their displeasure for the transgression, and one of the ways they may do that is by dropping the gloves. If someone engages you with fisticuffs, deciding that you dont want to throw them and the expectation that the opponent will stop throwing them is one that is fraught with danger.

I agree with the last statement, which is why I anticipate that the tunee is not likely to do it again now that he is acutely aware of the consequences. If the tuner had done nothing, I suspect that the tunee would be far more inclined to do it again.
The notion that a broken nose and concussion are an inherent risk for someone not wanting to fight in any element of life is a joke.

I'll ask again, what in your opinion would exceed inherent risk?

How far is too far after the snowing of a goalie?

Anyway, enjoy your barbarism.

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06-19-2013, 11:07 AM
  #43
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Can I ask one question, how far is too far for you? What if one of the shots hit him in the eye and he was blinded for life, would that be an inherent risk? What if a shot hit his hear and he was deafened on one side?

I never come to this forum, but it's a fun one.
Too far is running a guy from behind or sticking a guy, or going with a guy who clearly wants nothing to do with you and has done nothing to warrant a beating ( like in the KHL). Too far is gouging eyes, two one ones, kicking, hair pulling.

Yes he could get blinded for life or lose his hearing, but these chances are remote ( in midget a lot of the fights occur with both players keeping their sheilds on where the likelihood of injury is greatly reduced but still present), But the game has inherent risks. he could break his neck getting run from behind. He could catch a puck in the neck like mccreary, but we dont advocate getting rid of checking in midget or no lifter rules. My kid could get hit by a car on his bike even if he does everything right, that's the way it goes.

and like i said before, if the tunee had tried throwing some and suffered the exact same fate, no one says boo. The notion that someone can precipitate the incident, engage an opponent and when things start going south simply surrender and expect that the other player will immediately stop throwing them is horrifically misplaced.

And to reiterate, I dont like the 10 shots, the tuner did not act in a way I would want my kid to past the point where the tunee just lied there, but some of the comments on the cbc seem to imply that the tunee was completely blameless which is just not the way I see it. That as a young player you can do whatever you like on the ice and then decide to not fight and the other team is somehow expected to respect your unwillingness and let you get off scott free. I dont recall the goalie consenting to get snowed or run. my position is that there are somethings that you do on the ice that trump your lack of consent to fight. I can see people having different thresholds, for me snowing the goalie could go either way.
I also take into account the fact that my interpretation is that this was not an accidental snowing of the goalie, my read on it is that this was precisely his intent.

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06-19-2013, 11:16 AM
  #44
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"Too far is gouging eyes"

If you even have to state this, then your standards are out of whack in my opinion.

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06-19-2013, 11:31 AM
  #45
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Originally Posted by Gobias Industries View Post
"Too far is gouging eyes"

If you even have to state this, then your standards are out of whack in my opinion.
what gouging eyes is okay with you ? He asked for what is too far, gouging qualifies. Its exceptionally rare ( thank god) but it does happen, just like the way biting someone in a fight is rare, and headbutting a guy you are tied up with is over the line. For most midget games its not much of an issue because of the cages, but i've seen plenty of egregious things in fights. hockey fights are conducted under a set of parameters, but they aint those of the marquis of queensbury and you cant expect everyone to conduct themselves honorably in a fight.

of I forgot to add that throwing elbows and legsweeps/slewfoots
( like in MMA) is also too far and thank god it rarely happens outside of the khl.

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06-19-2013, 11:37 AM
  #46
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Originally Posted by Gobias Industries View Post
"Too far is gouging eyes"

If you even have to state this, then your standards are out of whack in my opinion.
what gouging eyes is okay with you ? He asked for what is too far, gouging qualifies. Its exceptionally rare ( thank god) but it does happen, just like the way biting someone in a fight is rare, and headbutting a guy you are tied up with is over the line. For most midget games its not much of an issue because of the cages, but i've seen plenty of egregious things in fights. hockey fights are conducted under a set of parameters, but they aint those of the marquis of queensbury and you cant expect everyone to conduct themselves honorably in a fight.

of I forgot to add that throwing elbows and legsweeps/slewfoots
( like in MMA) is also too far and thank god it rarely happens outside of the khl.

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06-19-2013, 02:30 PM
  #47
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So after an NHL fight, police officers skate out and arrest the players involved and take them away to jail. Hey, fighting is assault, right?

Nothing should be done in terms of the law. I wonder if that kid ever got a minor for slashing? Suspend the Brantford kid for like 8-10 and nothing for the other kid.

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06-19-2013, 02:42 PM
  #48
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So after an NHL fight, police officers skate out and arrest the players involved and take them away to jail. Hey, fighting is assault, right?

Nothing should be done in terms of the law. I wonder if that kid ever got a minor for slashing? Suspend the Brantford kid for like 8-10 and nothing for the other kid.
Do you have an example of NHL fight where one party clearly didn't want to partake, and was pummeled with ten shots leading to a broken nose and a concussion?

Serious question.

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06-19-2013, 03:14 PM
  #49
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Do you have an example of NHL fight where one party clearly didn't want to partake, and was pummeled with ten shots leading to a broken nose and a concussion?

Serious question.
not basing it on the outcome, but anyplayer who has turtled ( claude lemieux, frankie leroux come to mind) or who got jumped end up catching a few, although they do a better job of defending themselves. And the " no punching a guy when he's down" is a somewhat new construct. There are ton of fights where a guy was sitting on a guys chest throwing them ( wendel clarke had a few).

It looks like Fleischmann wanted nothing to do with Ryan white, but he didnt get a broken nose or concussion ( but it was not for lack of effort on white's part). Rene bourque also likely didnt want anything to do with orr, its wasnt a 10 puncher ( and a bordeline sucker) but I think they attributed the concussion to that incident.

if your looking for a guy getting pummelled like that your looking for a line brawl because if it were two guys, the refs would step in.

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06-19-2013, 03:33 PM
  #50
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Originally Posted by Gobias Industries View Post
Do you have an example of NHL fight where one party clearly didn't want to partake, and was pummeled with ten shots leading to a broken nose and a concussion?

Serious question.
in the pens-iles tilt gilles borded tangratti who was clearly woozy and then started throwing them ( he got in a couple of shots) before people jumped on him.

I had forgot that frankie leroux turtled twice in the same game against twist, mabey 10 shots total ?

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