HFBoards

Go Back   HFBoards > General Hockey Discussion > Hockey Fights
Mobile Hockey's Future Become a Sponsor Site Rules Support Forum vBookie Page 2
Notices

Hockey Fights Discuss and rate hockey fights and fighters of today and from the past. Videos welcome!

CBC Go Public: Should junior hockey fights be subject to criminal charges?

Closed Thread
 
Thread Tools
Old
06-19-2013, 05:25 PM
  #51
canucksfan
Registered User
 
Join Date: Mar 2002
Location: British Columbia
Posts: 32,042
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by sandysan View Post
But that's not what you said. If you want to apply the law to sporting events, you can't pick and choose to rail against fighting, or more specifically you can't do it without looking like a hypocrite.

When you choose to participate in hockey you accept that there are inherent risks, and as long as boys and men have laced them up, one of those risks is fighting. Leagues can do their best to try and legislatively reduce the occurrence of fights, but the risk is never reduced to zero.

When I was this kids age, I saw a couple of scraps. Most of them were nothing but juvenile displays, except one where the meekest player on the team stood up for a teamate who got seriously run. Yeah he got tossed and suspended ( everyone knew it would happen) but no one ever said he should not have done it.
It's different context. Bodychecking is apart of hockey. A player expects to be bodychecked. A player expects to have a puck shot at him. Those are within the rules.

In MMA a person expects that he might get knocked out. Criminal charges would not apply.

In this scenario we have something that most people would consider a non-hockey act. Pounding a player that isn't defending themselves numerous times is not something one would expect in hockey.

canucksfan is online now  
Old
06-19-2013, 06:22 PM
  #52
sandysan
Registered User
 
Join Date: Dec 2011
Posts: 10,007
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by canucksfan View Post
It's different context. Bodychecking is apart of hockey. A player expects to be bodychecked. A player expects to have a puck shot at him. Those are within the rules.

In MMA a person expects that he might get knocked out. Criminal charges would not apply.

In this scenario we have something that most people would consider a non-hockey act. Pounding a player that isn't defending themselves numerous times is not something one would expect in hockey.
then you don't watch much hockey. Id say that it is far more expected that you might have to drop the gloves if you snow the goalie then the expectation that you can snow the goalie and then NEVER answer the bell. apparently the league the kid plays in shares my opinion.

you cant precipitate and intitiate a situation and then decide to bail when things look like they are going south (from your perspective) and expect your opponent to honor your new found reticence. we dont want to raise a generation of rats, at least I dont.

sandysan is offline  
Old
06-19-2013, 06:24 PM
  #53
moog35
Registered User
 
moog35's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2007
Posts: 1,480
vCash: 500
if the kid doesn't snow the goalie in a 7-2 game he probably doesn't get dummied

moog35 is offline  
Old
06-19-2013, 06:35 PM
  #54
canucksfan
Registered User
 
Join Date: Mar 2002
Location: British Columbia
Posts: 32,042
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by sandysan View Post
then you don't watch much hockey. Id say that it is far more expected that you might have to drop the gloves if you snow the goalie then the expectation that you can snow the goalie and then NEVER answer the bell. apparently the league the kid plays in shares my opinion.

you cant precipitate and intitiate a situation and then decide to bail when things look like they are going south (from your perspective) and expect your opponent to honor your new found reticence. we dont want to raise a generation of rats, at least I dont.
Show me where in the NHL a player got at least 10 shots to the head while he was defenseless.


Last edited by canucksfan: 06-19-2013 at 06:47 PM.
canucksfan is online now  
Old
06-20-2013, 11:12 AM
  #55
sandysan
Registered User
 
Join Date: Dec 2011
Posts: 10,007
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by canucksfan View Post
Show me where in the NHL a player got at least 10 shots to the head while he was defenseless.
show me where an NHL player getting pounded decides to not even attempt to protect himself ( and he was not KO'ed he got up just fine at the end).

The point is you dont know what's going to happen when you commit to a fight. you might get a asham/beagle knock out, you might get a double piston tilt or you might get a guy turtling. Once you engage your in it for the long haul, you cant simply decide that you dont like getting you hat handed to you half way through and that by stopping to throw or defend yourself that your opponent will respect this.

sandysan is offline  
Old
06-20-2013, 12:19 PM
  #56
Blue Regime
Registered User
 
Blue Regime's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2008
Location: Groton, CT
Country: United States
Posts: 711
vCash: 500
Haha this argument is funny. The 10 punches was a bit excessive, but this just goes to show you how much of a bubble wrapped society we live in. People have no more accountability anymore and its sickening. Dude snows the goalie in a blowout game when tempers are high, what did you think was gonna happen?

If my parents treated this situation the way his parents are, I'd actually be embarrassed for them and for myself. Kids never gonna hear the end of it from any team he ever plays again. Everyone is always so quick to play the victim card instead of taking responsibility for their own actions, and it is just repulsive. Like I said - bubble wrapped society.

Blue Regime is offline  
Old
06-20-2013, 12:57 PM
  #57
MichiganWolverines
Big Mac Attack
 
MichiganWolverines's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2012
Location: Brampton, Ontario
Country: Canada
Posts: 1,657
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by moog35 View Post
if the kid doesn't snow the goalie in a 7-2 game he probably doesn't get dummied
Exactly. The kid got what deserved, I hope he learned his lesson. That kid is a punk for snowing the goalie while winning the game, and he was too much of a coward to defend himself.

His parents are cowards as well.

MichiganWolverines is offline  
Old
06-20-2013, 01:03 PM
  #58
canucksfan
Registered User
 
Join Date: Mar 2002
Location: British Columbia
Posts: 32,042
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by sandysan View Post
show me where an NHL player getting pounded decides to not even attempt to protect himself ( and he was not KO'ed he got up just fine at the end).

The point is you dont know what's going to happen when you commit to a fight. you might get a asham/beagle knock out, you might get a double piston tilt or you might get a guy turtling. Once you engage your in it for the long haul, you cant simply decide that you dont like getting you hat handed to you half way through and that by stopping to throw or defend yourself that your opponent will respect this.
He didn't commit to a fight.

canucksfan is online now  
Old
06-20-2013, 01:10 PM
  #59
MichiganWolverines
Big Mac Attack
 
MichiganWolverines's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2012
Location: Brampton, Ontario
Country: Canada
Posts: 1,657
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by canucksfan View Post
He didn't commit to a fight.
That makes it worse!

MichiganWolverines is offline  
Old
06-20-2013, 01:45 PM
  #60
sandysan
Registered User
 
Join Date: Dec 2011
Posts: 10,007
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by canucksfan View Post
He didn't commit to a fight.
when he intentionally and unmistakenly snowed the goalie, he sure as hell did.

Again is it your position that players get to do whatever they want on the ice and then only face retribution on THEIR terms ? You said no previously, but that's not what you keep arguing, that it is the trangressor that gets to define the extent and severity of the punishment. I'm sorry, that's not the way it works.

if he was really concerned about getting punched repeatedly in the face he should have not a) egregiously snowed the goalie and having done that he could have at least tried to either fight back or at least defend himself.

sandysan is offline  
Old
06-20-2013, 02:03 PM
  #61
canucksfan
Registered User
 
Join Date: Mar 2002
Location: British Columbia
Posts: 32,042
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by sandysan View Post

when he intentionally and unmistakenly snowed the goalie, he sure as hell did.
Nope. Snowing the goalie doesn't mean a player should have to fight.

Quote:
Again is it your position that players get to do whatever they want on the ice and then only face retribution on THEIR terms ? You said no previously, but that's not what you keep arguing, that it is the trangressor that gets to define the extent and severity of the punishment. I'm sorry, that's not the way it works.
Incorrect again. A cross check to the back and a couple of shoves would be more than enough.

Quote:
if he was really concerned about getting punched repeatedly in the face he should have not a) egregiously snowed the goalie and having done that he could have at least tried to either fight back or at least defend himself.
Think about what you are arguing. You are stating that if a goalie gets snowed on, it is okay for a player to land at least 10 bombs, to the player that did the snow shower.

Getting snowed sucks, it is a pain in the ass. However, it causes zero damage to the goalie. Yet, getting punched in the head 10 times can cause damage, as we have seen in the article. It would be a rare case, but it could have caused brain damage. Despite of this, you seem to think in your warped mind, it is okay because he snowed the goalie.

canucksfan is online now  
Old
06-20-2013, 02:35 PM
  #62
sandysan
Registered User
 
Join Date: Dec 2011
Posts: 10,007
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by canucksfan View Post

Think about what you are arguing. You are stating that if a goalie gets snowed on, it is okay for a player to land at least 10 bombs, to the player that did the snow shower. .
you act like the only decision being made here is by the tuner. The tunee decided to a) snow the goalie then b) make no effort to protect himself. If the tunee had not done either one of these things, then the likelihood of what transpired would have diminished appreciably.

Essentially you are putting the consequences of willfully deciding to not defend yourself on the person who has already voiced their displeasure and had already thown a punch ( or two)

it might not be a bad life lesson for the kid to learn that in the event where someone has already thrown punches at you that appealing to their inner ghandi between blows might not be the best way to proceed. If he didnt want to throw, at the very least he could have tried to defend himself and turtled.

sandysan is offline  
Old
06-20-2013, 02:46 PM
  #63
tarheelhockey
Global Moderator
 
tarheelhockey's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2010
Location: The Triangle
Country: United States
Posts: 49,025
vCash: 1020
Yeah, I'm coming down on the side of "if you snow the goalie, you better get your mitts up" in this case.

Is it acceptable to just grab a guy and start throwing bombs? Of course not. But it is also not acceptable to skate half the length of the ice and give the goalie a snow shower right in the face. Both of those things are clearly unacceptable, and one almost invariably precipitates the other.

IMO, when a player snows a goalie like that he knows full well that he is going to cause mayhem. There is really not another reason to do it. So, it's on him to be ready for what's coming. Get your hands up, turtle, fight, run behind a ref... something. Willfully letting it all transpire and then pressing charges on the other party is not acceptable.

And frankly, the fact that the parents have the audacity to go public with statements that this "isn't part of the game", after what their kid did to provoke that situation, is kind of sickening. Snowing the goalie when up by 4 in a tense game IS part of the game? I don't buy that at all.

tarheelhockey is offline  
Old
06-20-2013, 02:55 PM
  #64
canucksfan
Registered User
 
Join Date: Mar 2002
Location: British Columbia
Posts: 32,042
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by sandysan View Post
you act like the only decision being made here is by the tuner. The tunee decided to a) snow the goalie then b) make no effort to protect himself. If the tunee had not done either one of these things, then the likelihood of what transpired would have diminished appreciably.

Essentially you are putting the consequences of willfully deciding to not defend yourself on the person who has already voiced their displeasure and had already thown a punch ( or two)

it might not be a bad life lesson for the kid to learn that in the event where someone has already thrown punches at you that appealing to their inner ghandi between blows might not be the best way to proceed. If he didnt want to throw, at the very least he could have tried to defend himself and turtled.
I am not defending the action of the snow shower. It was stupid. However, throwing 10 punches to a defenseless player is way over the line. Like I said before, it could have caused brain damage.

One of the blows could have caused him to be somwhat knocked out resulting in him not being able to defend himself.

canucksfan is online now  
Old
06-20-2013, 03:07 PM
  #65
sandysan
Registered User
 
Join Date: Dec 2011
Posts: 10,007
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by canucksfan View Post
I am not defending the action of the snow shower. It was stupid. However, throwing 10 punches to a defenseless player is way over the line. Like I said before, it could have caused brain damage.

One of the blows could have caused him to be somwhat knocked out resulting in him not being able to defend himself.
then he has paccioretty levels of recuperation because he got up and skated off fine afterwards

You seem fixated on the number 10. what if it were 5 ? what if it were 5, the tunee throws one but misses and then another five ? Still as egregious ?

The tunee had every change to do something to prevent those 10 shots and chose not to, and suffered the consequences.

If I were the kid I might start asking why none of my teamates came to my aid, those kids could have also prevented the 10 shots but decided not to. It was the culmination of a series of bad decisions that ended up poorly for the kid, but it doesnt change the fact that his situation was the direct result of two independent decisions he made. live and learn.

And I dont like the 10 shots either, but choices have consequences ( often times ones you can't acurately predict). because it turned out badly this time does not negate that fact.

sandysan is offline  
Old
06-20-2013, 04:02 PM
  #66
canucksfan
Registered User
 
Join Date: Mar 2002
Location: British Columbia
Posts: 32,042
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by sandysan View Post
then he has paccioretty levels of recuperation because he got up and skated off fine afterwards
I love MMA. I have seen numerous times where guys have had their bell rung, not defending themselves and then a few seconds later are fine.

Quote:
You seem fixated on the number 10. what if it were 5 ? what if it were 5, the tunee throws one but misses and then another five ? Still as egregious ?
I am fixated on the numer 10 because that is how many blows he received. 5,6,7,8 are all irrelevent to this topic.

Quote:
The tunee had every change to do something to prevent those 10 shots and chose not to, and suffered the consequences.
You are assuming.

Quote:
If I were the kid I might start asking why none of my teamates came to my aid, those kids could have also prevented the 10 shots but decided not to. It was the culmination of a series of bad decisions that ended up poorly for the kid, but it doesnt change the fact that his situation was the direct result of two independent decisions he made. live and learn.
If I were the kid, I would be wondering why 10 shots to the head is okay punishment for snowing the goalie.

Quote:
And I dont like the 10 shots either, but choices have consequences ( often times ones you can't acurately predict). because it turned out badly this time does not negate that fact.
Choices do have consequences. However, when the consequences go way beyond the appropriate level then there is a problem. This is what ahppened with this incident.

canucksfan is online now  
Old
06-20-2013, 04:11 PM
  #67
skillhockey
Registered User
 
Join Date: Feb 2013
Posts: 1,596
vCash: 500
Get real, snowing a goalie doesn't cause fight in NHL either, maybe a bit of talk and push or two.

skillhockey is offline  
Old
06-20-2013, 05:13 PM
  #68
El Cohiba
Registered User
 
El Cohiba's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2011
Location: under the sunshine
Country: Aruba
Posts: 321
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by moog35 View Post
if the kid doesn't snow the goalie in a 7-2 game he probably doesn't get dummied
Exactly. I agree with you and with Blue Regime. Pretty bush league move to do this in a 7-2 rout.

El Cohiba is offline  
Old
06-20-2013, 05:39 PM
  #69
MichiganWolverines
Big Mac Attack
 
MichiganWolverines's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2012
Location: Brampton, Ontario
Country: Canada
Posts: 1,657
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by skillhockey View Post
Get real, snowing a goalie doesn't cause fight in NHL either, maybe a bit of talk and push or two.
If a team was losing by a large margin, then it most likely would result in a fight.

MichiganWolverines is offline  
Old
06-21-2013, 10:13 AM
  #70
tarheelhockey
Global Moderator
 
tarheelhockey's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2010
Location: The Triangle
Country: United States
Posts: 49,025
vCash: 1020
Quote:
Originally Posted by skillhockey View Post
Get real, snowing a goalie doesn't cause fight in NHL either, maybe a bit of talk and push or two.
Snowing a goalie like THAT, late in a chippy game with a 4-goal margin would likely cause a line brawl.

The difference being that NHL players generally know how to at least defend themselves in that situation. They'll turtle or get behind a ref. This kid did something incredibly stupid and was apparently not prepared for the fallout. Hardly the first or last time a teenager gets his ass kicked for acting like a punk in public. The difference being his parents typically aren't videotaping it and using it as a platform to get on the evening news trying to put another family's kid in jail.

tarheelhockey is offline  
Old
06-21-2013, 10:41 AM
  #71
pucky
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jan 2011
Posts: 7,252
vCash: 500
What were the officials doing? There are three, right? These are major midget players, not NHLers. I don't see how one guy is able to get in 10 punches....

Anyway, someone should have recognized how it might get out of control.

pucky is offline  
Old
06-21-2013, 12:11 PM
  #72
tarheelhockey
Global Moderator
 
tarheelhockey's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2010
Location: The Triangle
Country: United States
Posts: 49,025
vCash: 1020
Quote:
Originally Posted by pucky View Post
What were the officials doing? There are three, right? These are major midget players, not NHLers. I don't see how one guy is able to get in 10 punches....
It's right there in the video, a linesman was trying to tie him up but he was using a free hand to throw.

I don't see where the refs did anything wrong there. They jumped in as quickly as they could, without going overboard and throwing kids around.

tarheelhockey is offline  
Old
06-21-2013, 12:25 PM
  #73
Gobias Industries
Registered User
 
Gobias Industries's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: Toronto
Country: Canada
Posts: 12,426
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by tarheelhockey View Post
It's right there in the video, a linesman was trying to tie him up but he was using a free hand to throw.

I don't see where the refs did anything wrong there. They jumped in as quickly as they could, without going overboard and throwing kids around.
How much blame or what suspension would you levy on the kid throwing the punches?

Gobias Industries is offline  
Old
06-21-2013, 12:45 PM
  #74
tarheelhockey
Global Moderator
 
tarheelhockey's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2010
Location: The Triangle
Country: United States
Posts: 49,025
vCash: 1020
Quote:
Originally Posted by Gobias Industries View Post
How much blame or what suspension would you levy on the kid throwing the punches?
I think the 4 games he got is fine. 2 for fighting, 2 for being a repeat offender. Maybe a little more if that league has some sort of instigator rule. But criminal charges? That's nuts.

tarheelhockey is offline  
Old
06-21-2013, 12:49 PM
  #75
sandysan
Registered User
 
Join Date: Dec 2011
Posts: 10,007
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Gobias Industries View Post
How much blame or what suspension would you levy on the kid throwing the punches?
I'm fine with what he got, 4. If he did not have a previous fight I'd go 2 for each and a strong warning to the tuner that you should not continue to throw in a situation like that. He fought, its not like he speared or kicked the kid, and its still my position that the consequences of one of them deciding to not defend themselves falls on the person making that decision not on the guy who keeps throwing them. but that's just me.

And I agree that had a goalie in the NHL been snowed like this, you are probably looking at a line brawl.

sandysan is offline  
Closed Thread

Forum Jump


Bookmarks

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off



All times are GMT -5. The time now is 12:43 AM.

monitoring_string = "e4251c93e2ba248d29da988d93bf5144"

vBulletin Copyright ©2000 - 2017, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
HFBoards.com is a property of CraveOnline Media, LLC, an Evolve Media, LLC company. 2017 All Rights Reserved.