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2013 Summer Trade & Signing Talk | Part IV | It's French for "The Tang Wants Paid"

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06-20-2013, 08:40 PM
  #76
Ogrezilla
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Originally Posted by mr sidney crosby View Post
Also, for the people who say he is bad defernsivly. He can improve and get better in areas. He is only 26 years old.
also, he's only noticeably bad defensively when he's playing with awful d-partners. He was pretty damn good a lot of the time this season. Including games 3 and 4 against Boston.

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06-20-2013, 08:42 PM
  #77
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I still disagree with you here. I mean ya, he should be able to produce something. But the idea that he should be able to just will players to success is a bit off in my opinion. Off topic though. Keep Letang. He helps Sid and Geno as much as most wingers ever will.
Those aren't players that need to be willed to success. They are all legitimate scoring line players.

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06-20-2013, 08:44 PM
  #78
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Those aren't players that need to be willed to success. They are all legitimate scoring line players.
Maybe. But those weren't legitimate scoring lines.

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06-20-2013, 08:45 PM
  #79
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I may look stupid now for saying this, but I think Tom Kuhnhackl can step in at a top 6 role not next year but the next. He has great hands, can make plays on his own and has a great quick release.
I don't know if you're right... but I hope you are because that 838k caphit and Bennett's 900k caphit would look beautiful in our top six.

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06-20-2013, 08:46 PM
  #80
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06-20-2013, 08:46 PM
  #81
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Originally Posted by Ogrezilla View Post
So we should trade our great players because we can't afford good players if we keep our great players.



Those people are wrong. Including you. He's a top 10 d-man in the league. He is a top 2 offensive d-man in the league. If he's available, every single team in the league will ask about him because every single team in the league wants a guy like him.
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Originally Posted by Rowdy Roddy Peeper View Post
Show me where Letang demanded anything.



He hasn't "choked" any more than Crosby or Malkin since the Cup win.



Letang's consistently among the top 10 PP producers in the league.



Putting a lot of stock in signing Scuderi - a sure-to-be-expensive 34 year old - I take it.



Oh good, we can just need one until whenever happens. If that ever happens.



There's no reason at all why the best player in the world shouldn't be able to produce when it matters with Bennett and any combination of Kunitz/Dupuis/Iginla/whoever.
That is great. Reminds me of Jordan Staal. I heard the same thing with the "29 other teams would love to have him". I want him to be perceived as being great because then the Penguins will get an over payment.

Malkin and Crosby are going to get you to the playoffs. They would get any team to the playoffs. We need a team built around them to win in the playoffs. I do not feel Letang's game is enhanced in Playoff hockey. He is not a shutdown Defensemen. He does not pull Chara-like performances.

How can you pay a defenseman close to 7 million a year(hypothetically) and when you need to shutdown a star, you go to a pairing of Martin-Orpik instead?

Also, how many people are you going to give eight year deals too?

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06-20-2013, 08:47 PM
  #82
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Originally Posted by SherogoesHAM View Post
That is great. Reminds me of Jordan Staal. I heard the same thing with the "29 other teams would love to have him". I want him to be perceived as being great because then the Penguins will get an over payment.

Malkin and Crosby are going to get you to the playoffs. They would get any team to the playoffs. We need a team built around them to win in the playoffs. I do not feel Letang's game is enhanced in Playoff hockey. He is not a shutdown Defensemen. He does not pull Chara-like performances.

How can you pay a defenseman close to 7 million a year(hypothetically) and when you need to shutdown a star, you go to a pairing of Martin-Orpik instead?

Also, how many people are you going to give eight year deals too?
Because his main strength is offense. We want him on the ice with Sid and Geno, not Sutter and Cooke. We pay Sid and Geno about 9M a piece and then use Sutter to shut down other team's stars. Should we trade them too?

And no, the value of Jordan Staal is nothing close to Kris Letang. One is a guy that was a 3rd line center here and a 2nd line center on other teams. The other is one of the best PMD in the league, which also happens to be probably the scarcest commodity in the league.

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06-20-2013, 08:51 PM
  #83
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Cause he's demanding too much for us to fit under the cap for us to still be competitive and surround our star players including him. Plus he chokes a lot when it counts, can't handle QBing the PP like he's asked to. Freeing up that much space can give us the luxury of signing a shut down D-man, letting Pouliot/Maatta/Harrington grow into our PMD, and trading Tanger gives us the option of getting young, hungry forwards to hopefully play with Sid
Letang is probably the only crazy skilled offensive defenseman out there that can hit. He's also a fitness freak and I can see him getting stronger when he hits 30-33.

As far as playoffs...
I don't see what he did single handedly that can be considered a "choke".

For the PP...
We got spoiled with Gonchar, and nobody else can do what he does in playing 1D on the point. It's either time to take him off the PP, or structure the PP so it fits his style of play as well.

Besides, aside from him and Malkin, we don't have anybody that knows how to consistently gain the zone. Martin can do it sometimes, and so can Crosby.

Now who would like to see Briere here for $2M?

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06-20-2013, 08:51 PM
  #84
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Yeah Ray, and how did not having Parise this year work out for the Devils??

29th in the league in goals scored this season, and out of the playoffs.
Re the Devils, yeah, scoring was down, but if Kovy hadn't missed 12 games or whatever it was, they would've been in the playoffs and a legit threat to win the conference (certainly to oust the Pens). On the other hand, without Parise, when Kovy went out, they went to ****. So Parise's loss really hurt them in the depth department more than anything.

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06-20-2013, 08:52 PM
  #85
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Originally Posted by mr sidney crosby View Post
I may look stupid now for saying this, but I think Tom Kuhnhackl can step in at a top 6 role not next year but the next. He has great hands, can make plays on his own and has a great quick release.
Not with this organization. Not under the Shero/Bylsma watch. We luvz the vets.


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Originally Posted by mr sidney crosby View Post
Also, for the people who say he is bad defensively. He can improve and get better in areas. He is only 26 years old.
He'll never improve under this coaching staff. But maybe he'll have eight more years to improve after next...or eight and a half if we can the coaches midway through 2013-14.


In any case, not that it matters whatsoever, but I'm still quite on the fence on this Letang debate. I've heard both sides of the argument and I could honestly be swayed to go both ways...which is the opposite of last year when I was vehement about keeping Staal. Maybe it's because of how mediocre Staal looked in Carolina this past season that I'm currently on the fence about Letang.

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06-20-2013, 08:54 PM
  #86
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He'll never improve under this coaching staff. But maybe he'll have eight more years to improve after next...or eight and a half if we can the coaches midway through 2013-14.
Letang is considerably better today than he was when Dan Bylsma took over this team. He's only going to get better.

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06-20-2013, 08:54 PM
  #87
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I see a lot of people saying Letang isn't a Chara or Lidstrom, etc.

Keep in mind Chara wasn't nearly the player he was in his 20s, as he is in his 30s. He struggled mightily with his defensive game when he broke in with the Isles, it got better with Ottawa, but he was actually more of an offensive guy with the Sens, than a shutdown guy. He really came into his own as a shutdown, two way guy with Boston, when he won his first Norris at 32, I believe. If he had been a great shutdown guy then, the Sens would of kept him instead of Redden.

Lidstrom didn't even win his first Norris until he was thirty. He then won it 6 times in the next seven years, all Norris wins coming in his 30s. His winning streak was broken up by a 30 year old Niedermayer.

Letang is 26, keep, that in mind. He hasn't even hit his prime yet, and people want to trade him.

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06-20-2013, 08:57 PM
  #88
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In any case, not that it matters whatsoever, but I'm still quite on the fence on this Letang debate. I've heard both sides of the argument and I could honestly be swayed to go both ways...which is the opposite of last year when I was vehement about keeping Staal. Maybe it's because of how mediocre Staal looked in Carolina this past season that I'm currently on the fence about Letang.
at this juncture, the fence is a fine place to be and i hope nobody is castigated for hanging out near the fence. Benjy from The Sound and the Fury hangs out near the fence and who doesn't like Benjy?

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Through the fence, between the curling flower spaces, I could see them hitting. They were coming toward where the flag was and I went along the fence. Luster was hunting in the grass by the flower tree. They took the flag out, and they were hitting. Then they put the flag back and they went to the table, and he hit and the other hit. Then they went on, and I went along the fence. Luster came away from the flower tree and we went along the fence and they stopped and we stopped and I looked through the fence while Luster was hunting in the grass.

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06-20-2013, 08:57 PM
  #89
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Because his main strength is offense. Other teams have to consider how they will shut him down. We pay Sid and Geno about 9M a piece and then use Sutter to shut down other team's stars. Should we trade them too?
Defense is Defense. Offense is Offense. A defensemen's first role is defense and vice versa. Geno had 10 shots on goal three times while no one in the playoffs did it once until Hossa finally did it. I wouldn't call that choking. This whole "shutdown center" thing is so annoying. Who is Boston's shutdown 3rd line? I frankly don't know. All I know is that they have four lines that can keep the puck in the zone and can create chances because they don't have all their money tied up into three players. Our shutdown 3rd line was horrible in the offensive zone.

How many goals did our 3rd line have? How many goals does Boston's third line have? Who really has the better third line?

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06-20-2013, 08:58 PM
  #90
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Originally Posted by Ogrezilla View Post
Letang is considerably better today than he was when Dan Bylsma took over this team. He's only going to get better.
Which is because he's talented and would have improved anyway, regardless of what primate was giving him defensive coaching tips.

How old was he when Bylsma took over? It's just been a natural progression for an uber-talented player. This guy was a staple on Team Canada at the WJC. A lot of guys develop their games there.

He won't get to another level with our group, is my point. If Letang has another level, we'll see it either after he gets dealt or when we form a new regime.

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06-20-2013, 09:00 PM
  #91
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He really came into his own as a shutdown, two way guy with Boston, when he won his first Norris at 32, I believe. If he had been a great shutdown guy then, the Sens would of kept him instead of Redden.
as i recall it was his brutal performance in the playoffs against Buffalo that tipped the tide in choosing Redden over Chara (also some business over Hossa being traded but that always seemed like Rossi-esque speculation to me). i bet they wish they had at least another year of playoff action to evaluate the choice.

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06-20-2013, 09:01 PM
  #92
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Defense is Defense. Offense is Offense. A defensemen's first role is defense and vice versa. Geno had 10 shots on goal three times while no one in the playoffs did it once until Hossa finally did it. I wouldn't call that choking. This whole "shutdown center" thing is so annoying. Who is Boston's shutdown 3rd line? I frankly don't know. All I know is that they have four lines that can keep the puck in the zone and can create chances because they don't have all their money tied up into three players. Our shutdown 3rd line was horrible in the offensive zone.

How many goals did our 3rd line have? How many goals does Boston's third line have? Who really has the better third line?
But Boston doesn't win the Cup every year. And they may still lose to a team that DOES have money tied up in 3-4 players. AND, if Boston had Crosby and Malkin, THEY TOO would have money tied up in 3-4 players.

Idiot coaching and atrocious goaltending is why we're not winning with money tied up in 3-4 players...not the 3-4 players or their supporting cast.

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06-20-2013, 09:01 PM
  #93
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Which is because he's talented and would have improved anyway, regardless of what primate was giving him defensive coaching tips.

How old was he when Bylsma took over? It's just been a natural progression for an uber-talented player. This guy was a staple on Team Canada at the WJC. A lot of guys develop their games there.

He won't get to another level with our group, is my point. If Letang has another level, we'll see it either after he gets dealt or when we form a new regime.
What are you basing this on? His constant improvement over his career really doesn't lead to that conclusion. The kid is 26 years old. He isn't done getting better.

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06-20-2013, 09:03 PM
  #94
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I see a lot of people saying Letang isn't a Chara or Lidstrom, etc.

Keep in mind Chara wasn't nearly the player he was in his 20s, as he is in his 30s. He struggled mightily with his defensive game when he broke in with the Isles, it got better with Ottawa, but he was actually more of an offensive guy with the Sens, than a shutdown guy. He really came into his own as a shutdown, two way guy with Boston, when he won his first Norris at 32, I believe. If he had been a great shutdown guy then, the Sens would of kept him instead of Redden.

Lidstrom didn't even win his first Norris until he was thirty. He then won it 6 times in the next seven years, all Norris wins coming in his 30s. His winning streak was broken up by a 30 year old Niedermayer.

Letang is 26, keep, that in mind. He hasn't even hit his prime yet, and people want to trade him.
Yep. I see Letang improving in every way over the next 6-7 years. Combine that with his high work ethic and it's a very low risk signing.

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06-20-2013, 09:03 PM
  #95
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as i recall it was his brutal performance in the playoffs against Buffalo that tipped the tide in choosing Redden over Chara (also some business over Hossa being traded but that always seemed like Rossi-esque speculation to me). i bet they wish they had at least another year of playoff action to evaluate the choice.
Boston brought out the very best in big Z. The Sens at that time were such a passive squad. For the style they played, Redden was perfect for them.

Systems and styles can easily turn a very good player into an all-time great. And sometimes, it can go the other way (cough, Iggy, cough).

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06-20-2013, 09:03 PM
  #96
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Defense is Defense. Offense is Offense. A defensemen's first role is defense and vice versa. Geno had 10 shots on goal three times while no one in the playoffs did it once until Hossa finally did it. I wouldn't call that choking. This whole "shutdown center" thing is so annoying. Who is Boston's shutdown 3rd line? I frankly don't know. All I know is that they have four lines that can keep the puck in the zone and can create chances because they don't have all their money tied up into three players. Our shutdown 3rd line was horrible in the offensive zone.

How many goals did our 3rd line have? How many goals does Boston's third line have? Who really has the better third line?
luckily, Letang is also good at defense. And he's been steadily getting better as he's gotten older. Now that he's the age where an awful lot of defensemen finally break into the NHL, you just expect him to hit a wall and stop getting better?

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06-20-2013, 09:04 PM
  #97
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Boston brought out the very best in big Z. The Sens at that time were such a passive squad. For the style they played, Redden was perfect for them.

Systems and styles can easily turn a very good player into an all-time great. And sometimes, it can go the other way (cough, Iggy, cough).
Letang is as close to perfect for the style we play as you can get. Ideally, we'd have 6 d-men who play with some combination of Letang, Martin and Despres' styles.

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06-20-2013, 09:04 PM
  #98
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Maybe. But those weren't legitimate scoring lines.
I'm talking about moving forward. We should have all the pieces we need for him to be successful, even if it'd be a nice luxury for more.

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That is great. Reminds me of Jordan Staal. I heard the same thing with the "29 other teams would love to have him". I want him to be perceived as being great because then the Penguins will get an over payment.

Malkin and Crosby are going to get you to the playoffs. They would get any team to the playoffs. We need a team built around them to win in the playoffs. I do not feel Letang's game is enhanced in Playoff hockey. He is not a shutdown Defensemen. He does not pull Chara-like performances.

How can you pay a defenseman close to 7 million a year(hypothetically) and when you need to shutdown a star, you go to a pairing of Martin-Orpik instead?

Also, how many people are you going to give eight year deals too?
Because you already have Martin and Orpik, the UFA options suck, the cap never decreases and almost always increases, Letang provides a dynamic offensive element we have nowhere else on the blueline, and not only has Letang been the only defenseman other than Weber and Chara to finish top 10 in Norris voting the past 3 seasons, he's still young enough to get even better and remain at a high level for the duration of his next contract.

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06-20-2013, 09:05 PM
  #99
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What are you basing this on? His constant improvement over his career really doesn't lead to that conclusion. The kid is 26 years old. He isn't done getting better.
I am basing that on our complete lack of quality coaching. Of course he's not done getting better.

Defensively better, better on the PP...that stuff will improve when Byslma, Reirden, Granato are gone.

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06-20-2013, 09:06 PM
  #100
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What are you basing this on? His constant improvement over his career really doesn't lead to that conclusion. The kid is 26 years old. He isn't done getting better.
All defensemen stop improving at 26. Except of course all the guys Letang's detractors are comparing him to, who kept getting better into their 30s.

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