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The Value of an enforcer on the Pens 2013-2014 team

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Old
06-21-2013, 01:30 PM
  #51
Jag68Sid87
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Originally Posted by TheSniper26 View Post
No, the teem needed to make Boston pay by scoring on it's PP. That's the only way to make a team stay in line. Again, nobody is scared of fighters in today's NHL. If the other team feels that playing over the line against Sid/Geno is the best way to beat Pittsburgh, they'll keep doing it regardless of who's in our lineup.

I know people like hockey fights and, to some extent, I do too. But anyone that's trying to prove they hold any value outside of entertainment is fighting a losing battle.
Chara knocked Sid out of the series basically with one small punch in a minor melee. Our PP wasn't going to get better after that.

What we need is a new attitude on this team, starting from training camp, which basically suggests that you touch 87 and 71 at your own peril. EVEN a guy like Chara may think twice about smacking Sid in the jaw if he THINKS there's a CHANCE he might have to respond and be taken off the ice later on.

It all starts with attitude. But take one look at the guys behind the bench and it's like looking at a Bad News Bears movie.

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06-21-2013, 01:32 PM
  #52
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Babies getting drop-kicked kinda thread.

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06-21-2013, 01:33 PM
  #53
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Originally Posted by BreakfastatMarios View Post
Was talking to a friend and we were debating ways the Penguins could get better, and as we kept talking, the topic of team toughness, and the fact that the bruins took liberties against Crosby came up.

My friend said imagine if someone did that to Wayne Gretzky what would happen I reckon McSorley would've decapitated them and used their skull as a chilli bowl.
Love fighting in hockey. Particularly of the retribution/message sending variety.

This wouldn't have mattered. In a best of seven, no coach is going to allow an enforcer to risk a 7 minute pk unless the score is totally out of whack. That was true in Gretzky's day as well.

In addition, refereeing has changed. In the past, if, say, Pietrangelo (just to pick a guy who's a star but doesn't fight) had slashed someone bad and a goon like MacIntyre jumped him, they would just put their hands on their hips and watch this play out (edit: should note that this sort of thing actually happened in a Pens game in 96...Zubov slashed someone, some Monster jumped him...Tinordi, I think...and the referees just looked at their watches and wondered if the game would be over before they could get to the bar while this was all happening). Now, not only would 4 officials get in there immediately, but they might actually pre-emptively chuck Mac from the game if he was jawing at Pietro. Same would be true if it was MacIntyre and Chara.

Remember in the Islander brawl game, after Martin suckered Talbot, the officials immediately tossed every Pittsburgh tough guy other than Godard (who wasn't even out on the ice) in an effort to keep the game under control. This backfired badly, but that's the way they think now.

In the playoffs, there are better ways to handle that. They should have instructed Malkin (or whoever had the puck crossing the line) to dump the puck in Chara's corner and have James Neal (or the biggest hitter on the line) given the assignment of crushing him--not retrieving the puck--every single zone entry that Chara was on the ice. Guy's not mobile enough to get out of the way and he's sure as **** not going to be able to play 30 effective minutes per night if that's your zone entrance strategy.

Nobody's going to be effective or intimidating if he's taking 20 big hits in the corner every game.

Edit: and finally MacIntyre is only effective against a small handful of players at this time. He can only intimidate the sorts of players who play with an edge, but are also the sorts of guys the referees will not save from him. That list amounts basically to Jody Shelley, Colton Orr and Cam Janssens. And even then, these guys won't take the fight, so the best case scenario is that they become non-factors. Other than Janssens, who can be a factor with his hitting, the other two are already non-factors.

Chara, as noted below, wouldn't fight MacIntyre. And the officials would make damned certain he never got the chance. From their perspective, they can't be allowing the worst player in the league to beat up possibly the league's best defenseman. To them, it would be like letting Shelley jump Stamkos (though that analogy would be flawed in my eyes...it's not in theirs).


Last edited by billybudd: 06-21-2013 at 01:49 PM.
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06-21-2013, 01:34 PM
  #54
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Zdeno Chara would not fight Steve MacIntyre. They would send Shawn Thornton to get his skull smashed in.

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06-21-2013, 01:36 PM
  #55
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jag68Sid87 View Post
Chara knocked Sid out of the series basically with one small punch in a minor melee. Our PP wasn't going to get better after that.

What we need is a new attitude on this team, starting from training camp, which basically suggests that you touch 87 and 71 at your own peril. EVEN a guy like Chara may think twice about smacking Sid in the jaw if he THINKS there's a CHANCE he might have to respond and be taken off the ice later on.

It all starts with attitude. But take one look at the guys behind the bench and it's like looking at a Bad News Bears movie.
The referees no longer allow this. If they did, Kronwall would have had a career ending beating in his rookie year.

Only way you -might- get away with what you're suggesting is if the bruiser sending the message was, himself, a star. And how many of those are there, 2? Both Bruins? 3 if you count Backes?

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06-21-2013, 02:39 PM
  #56
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Originally Posted by MichiganWolverines View Post
Zdeno Chara would not fight Steve MacIntyre. They would send Shawn Thornton to get his skull smashed in.
That too. This thread is really going nowhere. Probably going to close it soon so get your left hooks in while you can.

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06-21-2013, 02:40 PM
  #57
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Originally Posted by Chancellor Vitale View Post
That too. This thread is really going nowhere. Probably going to close it soon so get your left hooks in while you can.
why does it need closed?

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06-21-2013, 02:42 PM
  #58
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Originally Posted by Ogrezilla View Post
why does it need closed?
Steve MacIntyre might not like what some of you are saying about him. Those people might not like what Mac might do. Chancellor has an obligation to keep the peace.

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06-21-2013, 02:43 PM
  #59
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jag68Sid87 View Post
Chara knocked Sid out of the series basically with one small punch in a minor melee. Our PP wasn't going to get better after that.

What we need is a new attitude on this team, starting from training camp, which basically suggests that you touch 87 and 71 at your own peril. EVEN a guy like Chara may think twice about smacking Sid in the jaw if he THINKS there's a CHANCE he might have to respond and be taken off the ice later on.

It all starts with attitude. But take one look at the guys behind the bench and it's like looking at a Bad News Bears movie.
That's the thing though, guys don't have to answer for anything anymore and they know it. If Chara throws a cheapshot at Sid and Steve MacIntyre skates up to him, what's the worst that happens for Chara? He gets asked to fight and declines? He gets pounced on, it's broken up in 5 seconds, MacIntyre is thrown out and the Bruins get a PP? Either way, the Bruins go right back to agitating our stars. Enforcers just don't work in today's NHL.

Again, the only way to beat a team playing over the line is to make them pay on the scoreboard. Winning/losing trumps all and if throwing cheapshots is costing a team games, they'll stop. Getting sucked into a game where guys are trading cheapshots does absolutely nothing to protect our top guys.

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06-21-2013, 02:43 PM
  #60
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ogrezilla View Post
why does it need closed?
Are you drunk today or something? Your posting style seems to have changed dramatically.

If i close it, it will be because the argument is going around in cirles / nothing new or useful is coming out of the discussion.

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06-21-2013, 02:46 PM
  #61
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TheSniper26 View Post
That's the thing though, guys don't have to answer for anything anymore and they know it. If Chara throws a cheapshot at Sid and Steve MacIntyre skates up to him, what's the worst that happens for Chara? He gets asked to fight and declines? He gets pounced on, it's broken up in 5 seconds, MacIntyre is thrown out and the Bruins get a PP? Either way, the Bruins go right back to agitating our stars. Enforcers just don't work in today's NHL.

Again, the only way to beat a team playing over the line is to make them pay on the scoreboard. Winning/losing trumps all and if throwing cheapshots is costing a team games, they'll stop. Getting sucked into a game where guys are trading cheapshots does absolutely nothing to protect our top guys.
Well, the Oilers used to run up the score and make you pay the physical price for touching their stars.

If the Penguins don't bring this back into the NHL, then who? We have the most to lose by continuing to allow stuff against Sid and Geno to happen.

Of course, all of this matters little and CV is right to close this thread...because all we care about now as an organization is to grind these *****es down.

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06-21-2013, 02:47 PM
  #62
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"Hello, old friend. These boys on the Internet are saying we can't play hockey! What do you suggest we do about it?"

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06-21-2013, 02:47 PM
  #63
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Chancellor Vitale View Post
Are you drunk today or something? Your posting style seems to have changed dramatically.

If i close it, it will be because the argument is going around in cirles / nothing new or useful is coming out of the discussion.
I'm not. I'm annoyed that everyone wants to get rid of one of our best players. And I'm tired and cranky because my dogs won't let me sleep in on my days off

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06-21-2013, 03:02 PM
  #64
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The enforcer is just about dead, but Shero will probably try his darnedest for as long as he's a GM to keep some employed. Godard was the only guy the Pens had in recent memory that was almost worth the roster spot and money, and that's just because he jumped off the bench in the islanders brawl game to defend Johnson.

No one's afraid of "enforcers". Because the only people they fight are other guys whose only skill is fighting, voluntarily. Oh no! One of the other teams' stars took a run at one of ours! Go teach them a lesson by fighting their goon!

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06-21-2013, 03:03 PM
  #65
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Originally Posted by dr robbie View Post
I mean, do we really think toughness is why we lost against the Bs? I thought we outhit them and played a much more physical game. It was our lack of offense that killed us.
Depends on how you define "toughness". I don't think we needed a guy who could fight, or hit, or any of that stuff so much as we needed players who would be willing to pay the price to go to the front of the net. The one thing I thought was lacking throughout the entire series against the Bruins was any sort of presence in the slot or the crease. Considering it was part of the system all season long to have a "center-line drive" of some sort, I found it utterly baffling that it disappeared against the Bruins. That was either a really dumb adjustment by the coaching staff, or a complete lack of will to take the punishment by the players. Or some combination of the two.

Rask was coughing up rebounds right into the slot all series long, and there was never a Penguin there to pick them up. Even if Rask had redirected them to the corner instead, having a player coming down the center would have meant the Pens could beat the Bruins to the puck and maintain possession. Having a player there could help with generating screens and deflections. But the only time anyone went to the slot or crease was when they had the puck, or it was already too late.

Now, the Bruins certainly made it uncomfortable for anyone to go there, but so what? They're being paid millions of dollars to take that abuse. As keeps getting said, "it's part of the game." So I'd like to see more dedication to going to those unpleasant areas to play from the team next season.

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06-21-2013, 03:05 PM
  #66
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Originally Posted by Chancellor Vitale View Post
Are you drunk today or something? Your posting style seems to have changed dramatically.

If i close it, it will be because the argument is going around in cirles / nothing new or useful is coming out of the discussion.
C'mon man... you guys close everything.

IMO the Pens losing their edge from the Max and Rupper teams is a huge issue. These past two seasons we've seen Sid punked out more than enough times by players that shouldn't even be able to look at him. Its not talked about but Crosby got Steckeled again too.

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06-21-2013, 03:07 PM
  #67
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Originally Posted by BrunoPuntzJones View Post


"Hello, old friend. These boys on the Internet are saying we can't play hockey! What do you suggest we do about it?"
I like to imagine he's not being punched, but rather resting his chin on his own fist and pondering life's intricacies.

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06-21-2013, 03:07 PM
  #68
Ogrezilla
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Originally Posted by #66 View Post
C'mon man... you guys close everything.

IMO the Pens losing their edge from the Max and Rupper teams is a huge issue. These past two seasons we've seen Sid punked out more than enough times by players that shouldn't even be able to look at him. Its not talked about but Crosby got Steckeled again too.
that's not new the last two seasons

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06-21-2013, 03:12 PM
  #69
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It'd be nice if Mac would take some skating lessons this summer.

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06-21-2013, 03:12 PM
  #70
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Originally Posted by #66 View Post
C'mon man... you guys close everything.

IMO the Pens losing their edge from the Max and Rupper teams is a huge issue. These past two seasons we've seen Sid punked out more than enough times by players that shouldn't even be able to look at him. Its not talked about but Crosby got Steckeled again too.
In the Islanders series when Strait hit Sid, Iggy went after him to defend Sid. He took a penalty, and Sid wasn't really defended any time after that.

So either 1.) the guys who are on the ice with Sid aren't capable of defending him 2.) the team is told by the coaching staff not to retaliate for anything

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06-21-2013, 03:13 PM
  #71
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It'd be nice if Mac would take some skating lessons this summer.
He actually spent a good chunk of time after practices doing one on one training with Hynes, couldn't you tell?

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06-21-2013, 03:27 PM
  #72
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I'm not. I'm annoyed that everyone wants to get rid of one of our best players. And I'm tired and cranky because my dogs won't let me sleep in on my days off
I feel your pain bro. On both counts. My dogs won't let me sleep past 7 even on weekends. 7:30 if I'm lucky.

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06-21-2013, 03:32 PM
  #73
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Originally Posted by Zen Arcade View Post
I like to imagine he's not being punched, but rather resting his chin on his own fist and pondering life's intricacies.
I've always assumed he's interacting with his own sentient fist, which may actually control his body most of the time, Liquid Snake style.

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06-21-2013, 03:35 PM
  #74
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I think he was just eating at a community event, held at the local school gym... his head resting on fist (as is his way), and someone took a slice of his pizza.

When you have cable you get screwed on your bill... when you get screwed on your bill you want to get back at someone... when you want to get back at someone you try to steal a piece of Big Mac's pizza. Don't steal a piece of Big Mac's pizza... get DirecTV.

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06-21-2013, 03:45 PM
  #75
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Originally Posted by Chancellor Vitale View Post
I think he was just eating at a community event, held at the local school gym... his head resting on fist (as is his way), and someone took a slice of his pizza.

When you have cable you get screwed on your bill... when you get screwed on your bill you want to get back at someone... when you want to get back at someone you try to steal a piece of Big Mac's pizza. Don't steal a piece of Big Mac's pizza... get DirecTV.
Maybe the pizza was too small.

To quote Mitch Hedberg:

"If the pizza was a pie chart for what you'd do if you found a million dollars, the ****er gave me the donate it to charity slice."

Mac wanted to exchange it for the "keep it."

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