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The Value of an enforcer on the Pens 2013-2014 team

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Old
06-22-2013, 10:31 AM
  #101
Jag68Sid87
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Originally Posted by eXile59 View Post
This argument is so dated. The Enforcer has been phased out for several different reasons, instigator rule, speed of the game, concussions, ect...
The trend is they're coming back. Look around the Eastern Conference. And with Boston being so successful, teams everywhere will continue to look for size and toughness.

Anyway, I agree with the GENERAL premise that you need tough guys who can play. What I don't agree with is having Tanner Glass on the roster over Steve MacIntyre.

Nobody will ever be able to convince me that MacIntyre as a deterrent and Malkin taking Glass's PK minutes wouldn't serve this team better.

You want another Lucic? Sign me up if you can find him. But he's almost as rare as a Yeti. So if the options are MacIntyre or no toughness I want Big Mac.

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06-22-2013, 10:33 AM
  #102
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Originally Posted by eXile59 View Post
Morrow & Iginla were suppose to bring toughness as long with being able to play on the top 2 lines. Unfortunately it seems they were so ready for the ride of being on a cup contending team they both forgot they might have to actual do something along the way.

Iginla is suppose to be a power forward but you would never have been able to tell watching him play this year.
ya, Iginla is not a power forward any more than James Neal is at this stage of his career.

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06-22-2013, 10:34 AM
  #103
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more then an enforcer. i think the team needs a guy in the top 6 who can handle himself if push comes to shove


i said years ago, that a guy like Lucic would look awesome on sid's wing. still holds true IMO

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06-22-2013, 10:36 AM
  #104
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Originally Posted by Jag68Sid87 View Post
The trend is they're coming back. Look around the Eastern Conference. And with Boston being so successful, teams everywhere will continue to look for size and toughness.

Anyway, I agree with the GENERAL premise that you need tough guys who can play. What I don't agree with is having Tanner Glass on the roster over Steve MacIntyre.

Nobody will ever be able to convince me that MacIntyre as a deterrent and Malkin taking Glass's PK minutes wouldn't serve this team better.

You want another Lucic? Sign me up if you can find him. But he's almost as rare as a Yeti. So if the options are MacIntyre or no toughness I want Big Mac.
Tanner Glass has 100x the ability to skate a regular shift in the NHL on any given night. Glass sucks, and his play won't be pretty, but Mac and his ilk do not belong on the ice. They literally serve no purpose in this league other than fighting other useless goons in boring, tired, scripted fights against other guys who don't actually belong in the NHL.

Mac doesn't provide toughness. Mac doesn't provide anything. I hate Glass on this team, but if we're talking about dressing one guy for the majority of the games for the season, give me Glass over Mac 100 times out of 100.

Rupp, Asham, Talbot, etc. Those guys provide toughness. They're not going to be feared fighters, but give me a guy who can skate a regular shift and not be an absolute liability on the ice over an oaf who solely makes his money with his knuckles.

The best teams don't employ goons anymore.

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06-22-2013, 10:38 AM
  #105
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Originally Posted by eXile59 View Post
Morrow & Iginla were suppose to bring toughness as long with being able to play on the top 2 lines. Unfortunately it seems they were so ready for the ride of being on a cup contending team they both forgot they might have to actual do something along the way.

Iginla is suppose to be a power forward but you would never have been able to tell watching him play this year.
Yup... Its funny that those stars had some of the same issues with the Pens system that Tangradi had. I wasn't the biggest Tangradi fan because he showed next to nothing but I have seen him play well in WB and know he wasn't that bad.

Just to get the question out there. Whats the bigger issue with the Pens....

team toughness or team speed?

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06-22-2013, 10:39 AM
  #106
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Originally Posted by Jag68Sid87 View Post
The trend is they're coming back. Look around the Eastern Conference. And with Boston being so successful, teams everywhere will continue to look for size and toughness.

Anyway, I agree with the GENERAL premise that you need tough guys who can play. What I don't agree with is having Tanner Glass on the roster over Steve MacIntyre.

Nobody will ever be able to convince me that MacIntyre as a deterrent and Malkin taking Glass's PK minutes wouldn't serve this team better.

You want another Lucic? Sign me up if you can find him. But he's almost as rare as a Yeti. So if the options are MacIntyre or no toughness I want Big Mac.
Glass is a bad example because Glass is terrible too. The reason Mac over Glass might make sense is because dressing 1 less player would also make us a better team than dressing Glass simply because someone else would fill those minutes.

Mac is bad because he is probably the worst hockey playing goon I've seen on this team. Mac makes Colton Orr or Georges Laraque look like good hockey players.

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06-22-2013, 10:47 AM
  #107
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Originally Posted by dr robbie View Post
I mean, do we really think toughness is why we lost against the Bs? I thought we outhit them and played a much more physical game. It was our lack of offense that killed us.

when guys like a 5- 10 190 Lbs dupuis are hitting guys like chara, horton, lucic, and throton. do you really think it changes the speed of which they execute a play. or deter them from going to the front of the net??
those guys brush them off like flies


a better question is why doesnt our roster have the players that will stand in front of the net and take the abuse needed for playoff type hockey

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06-22-2013, 10:52 AM
  #108
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Originally Posted by BmxHockey View Post
Need skaters who can fight.
this $$$

lets get a list going of guys that can fight and still play the game a bit

parros was mentioned earlier

clowe was another. he can probably play on 2nd or 3rd line

i'd love if they try engllend as a 4th line foward

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06-22-2013, 10:54 AM
  #109
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Originally Posted by lastcupever75 View Post

i'd love if they try engllend as a 4th line foward
7d/12F split for Engo makes more sense than playing Glass.

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06-22-2013, 10:55 AM
  #110
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Originally Posted by The Oneironaut View Post
There was a proposal on the main board- TK's rights to the Rags for Brandon Mashinter's rights, which I would take in a second. Mashinter might not be an "enforcer," but he can definitely fight. He's been a really effective player in the AHL, he's huge, he's young, and he hasn't gotten much of a chance in the NHL yet. I'd like to see if he could fit here.
so why would the rangers give that up in a trade


they're not exactly loaded in that area

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06-22-2013, 10:56 AM
  #111
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Originally Posted by BreakfastatMarios View Post
When Chara punched Sid in the jaw he did it cause he knew nobody would step up and make them accountable.

I'm not saying it has to be Big Mac necessarily just someone who's going to stand up for his team mates, and will drop the gloves.

Oh I'm also not saying that's the only thing that went wrong, it's just one part of a plan to get better.


1. Sit stars who have brain farts, make them accountable for questionable play

2. Sit players who don't stand up for their team mates

3. Get nastier as an organization

I'll stop there don't want to get too off topic, I just think if there was a deterrent to hitting the teams stars, it would lead to less cheap shots, and cut down on the frustration that Mal kin and Crosby feel.
First off, everyone is making way too big of a deal out of this jaw punch incident. If you watch it in real time, it happened very fast and wasn't really a big punch. Sid grabbed his jersey around the neck and Chara reacted by punching Sid. I'm sure he did aim for the jaw, but it was an instant reaction to being grabbed. If that little punch really threw Sid's whole series off, then he isn't very tough or resilient (which I don't believe for a second). Lack of enforcers to protect Sid is near the bottom of the list on why we lost that series.

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06-22-2013, 10:58 AM
  #112
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Originally Posted by lastcupever75 View Post
so why would the rangers give that up in a trade


they're not exactly loaded in that area
They need a player to play on the third line. The Rangers have Asham and Dorsett.

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06-22-2013, 10:59 AM
  #113
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Originally Posted by billybudd View Post
Love fighting in hockey. Particularly of the retribution/message sending variety.

This wouldn't have mattered. In a best of seven, no coach is going to allow an enforcer to risk a 7 minute pk unless the score is totally out of whack. That was true in Gretzky's day as well.

In addition, refereeing has changed. In the past, if, say, Pietrangelo (just to pick a guy who's a star but doesn't fight) had slashed someone bad and a goon like MacIntyre jumped him, they would just put their hands on their hips and watch this play out (edit: should note that this sort of thing actually happened in a Pens game in 96...Zubov slashed someone, some Monster jumped him...Tinordi, I think...and the referees just looked at their watches and wondered if the game would be over before they could get to the bar while this was all happening). Now, not only would 4 officials get in there immediately, but they might actually pre-emptively chuck Mac from the game if he was jawing at Pietro. Same would be true if it was MacIntyre and Chara.

Remember in the Islander brawl game, after Martin suckered Talbot, the officials immediately tossed every Pittsburgh tough guy other than Godard (who wasn't even out on the ice) in an effort to keep the game under control. This backfired badly, but that's the way they think now.

In the playoffs, there are better ways to handle that. They should have instructed Malkin (or whoever had the puck crossing the line) to dump the puck in Chara's corner and have James Neal (or the biggest hitter on the line) given the assignment of crushing him--not retrieving the puck--every single zone entry that Chara was on the ice. Guy's not mobile enough to get out of the way and he's sure as **** not going to be able to play 30 effective minutes per night if that's your zone entrance strategy.

Nobody's going to be effective or intimidating if he's taking 20 big hits in the corner every game.

Edit: and finally MacIntyre is only effective against a small handful of players at this time. He can only intimidate the sorts of players who play with an edge, but are also the sorts of guys the referees will not save from him. That list amounts basically to Jody Shelley, Colton Orr and Cam Janssens. And even then, these guys won't take the fight, so the best case scenario is that they become non-factors. Other than Janssens, who can be a factor with his hitting, the other two are already non-factors.

Chara, as noted below, wouldn't fight MacIntyre. And the officials would make damned certain he never got the chance. From their perspective, they can't be allowing the worst player in the league to beat up possibly the league's best defenseman. To them, it would be like letting Shelley jump Stamkos (though that analogy would be flawed in my eyes...it's not in theirs).
i know what you're saying, but it does still happen on occasion.

last year an ottawa senator jumped brian boyle getting some retribution for a dirty hit earlier in the series.
think it was carkner

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06-22-2013, 11:03 AM
  #114
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Originally Posted by dr robbie View Post
I mean, do we really think toughness is why we lost against the Bs? I thought we outhit them and played a much more physical game. It was our lack of offense that killed us.
Yup. We spent have of the first 2 games trying to prove how tough we were rather than showing them how good we were at hockey. I think true toughness was an issue (driving the net, going to the dirty areas) but certainly not hitting or scrums after the whistle. We were pretty good at those.

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06-22-2013, 11:05 AM
  #115
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Originally Posted by MichiganWolverines View Post
They need a player to play on the third line. The Rangers have Asham and Dorsett.
asham is just about done.

why would they trade a young guy with those abilities for a guy with TK type abilities.

as everyone here has said, its much harder to find that type of guy.

there's hundred's of TK types in the NHL and minors

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06-22-2013, 11:07 AM
  #116
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Originally Posted by Jag68Sid87 View Post
Chara knocked Sid out of the series basically with one small punch in a minor melee. Our PP wasn't going to get better after that.

What we need is a new attitude on this team, starting from training camp, which basically suggests that you touch 87 and 71 at your own peril. EVEN a guy like Chara may think twice about smacking Sid in the jaw if he THINKS there's a CHANCE he might have to respond and be taken off the ice later on.

It all starts with attitude. But take one look at the guys behind the bench and it's like looking at a Bad News Bears movie.
If true, then Sid is a baby. Come on man, that one little punch didn't knock Sid out of the series. Quit being so damn dramatic.

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06-22-2013, 11:14 AM
  #117
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Originally Posted by Freeptop View Post
Depends on how you define "toughness". I don't think we needed a guy who could fight, or hit, or any of that stuff so much as we needed players who would be willing to pay the price to go to the front of the net. The one thing I thought was lacking throughout the entire series against the Bruins was any sort of presence in the slot or the crease. Considering it was part of the system all season long to have a "center-line drive" of some sort, I found it utterly baffling that it disappeared against the Bruins. That was either a really dumb adjustment by the coaching staff, or a complete lack of will to take the punishment by the players. Or some combination of the two.

Rask was coughing up rebounds right into the slot all series long, and there was never a Penguin there to pick them up. Even if Rask had redirected them to the corner instead, having a player coming down the center would have meant the Pens could beat the Bruins to the puck and maintain possession. Having a player there could help with generating screens and deflections. But the only time anyone went to the slot or crease was when they had the puck, or it was already too late.

Now, the Bruins certainly made it uncomfortable for anyone to go there, but so what? They're being paid millions of dollars to take that abuse. As keeps getting said, "it's part of the game." So I'd like to see more dedication to going to those unpleasant areas to play from the team next season.

i think you answered your own question. we do it on occasion.

but against a big strong physical team, they were not willing to do the same

what does that tell us??

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06-22-2013, 11:15 AM
  #118
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Originally Posted by lastcupever75 View Post
asham is just about done.

why would they trade a young guy with those abilities for a guy with TK type abilities.

as everyone here has said, its much harder to find that type of guy.

there's hundred's of TK types in the NHL and minors
I just told you, they are in need for a third-line winger. Tyler Kennedy has proven that he can be an effective third-line winger.

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06-22-2013, 11:18 AM
  #119
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Originally Posted by CaptainZappBrannigan View Post
Tanner Glass has 100x the ability to skate a regular shift in the NHL on any given night. Glass sucks, and his play won't be pretty, but Mac and his ilk do not belong on the ice. They literally serve no purpose in this league other than fighting other useless goons in boring, tired, scripted fights against other guys who don't actually belong in the NHL.

Mac doesn't provide toughness. Mac doesn't provide anything. I hate Glass on this team, but if we're talking about dressing one guy for the majority of the games for the season, give me Glass over Mac 100 times out of 100.

Rupp, Asham, Talbot, etc. Those guys provide toughness. They're not going to be feared fighters, but give me a guy who can skate a regular shift and not be an absolute liability on the ice over an oaf who solely makes his money with his knuckles.

The best teams don't employ goons anymore.
Completely disagree. Glass is the one who serves NO purpose on an NHL team, because PK minutes can go to better players who can actually threaten opponents with shorthanded chances (i.e. Malkin).

Secondly, both Boston and Chicago have played their fourth-line enforcers in the Stanley Cup finals. And last I checked, they were the best teams. Then look at Los Angeles' lineup. Look at Anaheim's. No Detroit doesn't have one but for God sakes we're not f&*(^% Detroit!


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Originally Posted by Ogrezilla View Post
Glass is a bad example because Glass is terrible too. The reason Mac over Glass might make sense is because dressing 1 less player would also make us a better team than dressing Glass simply because someone else would fill those minutes.

Mac is bad because he is probably the worst hockey playing goon I've seen on this team. Mac makes Colton Orr or Georges Laraque look like good hockey players.
You never watched Jay Caufield play?


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Originally Posted by Shady Machine View Post
First off, everyone is making way too big of a deal out of this jaw punch incident. If you watch it in real time, it happened very fast and wasn't really a big punch. Sid grabbed his jersey around the neck and Chara reacted by punching Sid. I'm sure he did aim for the jaw, but it was an instant reaction to being grabbed. If that little punch really threw Sid's whole series off, then he isn't very tough or resilient (which I don't believe for a second). Lack of enforcers to protect Sid is near the bottom of the list on why we lost that series.
Getting smacked in the jaw after breaking it isn't exactly a warm and fuzzy feeling. Crosby is plenty tough, if not a little stupid to enter a series against Chara and take his protective gear off. But that's a hockey player for you, he probably wanted to send the team a message by removing it, but nobody got the memo apparently.


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Originally Posted by lastcupever75 View Post
i know what you're saying, but it does still happen on occasion.

last year an ottawa senator jumped brian boyle getting some retribution for a dirty hit earlier in the series.
think it was carkner
Yep, it was Carkner. And that incident is EXACTLY what I'm talking about. Who cares what the circumstances are, what time of year it is or when stuff happens. If you take a shot at our guys, we're coming after you. Loved that move by Carkner.


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Originally Posted by Shady Machine View Post
If true, then Sid is a baby. Come on man, that one little punch didn't knock Sid out of the series. Quit being so damn dramatic.
A baby for taking a shot to the jaw after breaking it earlier? No, definitely not a baby. But it clearly affected his play. And if we could do something to help Crosby out with his string of bad luck on the injury front, we should do so. We can't do anything about Orpik's lack of aim, but we can do something about people taking runs at him.

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06-22-2013, 11:21 AM
  #120
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Enforcers rarely (if at all) see the ice in the playoffs. But if they help our stars stay healthy during the regular season, i'm all for it. A guy like Orr, Neil, Parros, or even Mac would be twice as valuable to this team than Tanner Glass.

The point is moot anyway, cause after the Isles debacle a few years ago, there was a concentrated effort my managment to eliminate fighting from this team.

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06-22-2013, 11:25 AM
  #121
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Originally Posted by Jag68Sid87 View Post

A baby for taking a shot to the jaw after breaking it earlier? No, definitely not a baby. But it clearly affected his play. And if we could do something to help Crosby out with his string of bad luck on the injury front, we should do so. We can't do anything about Orpik's lack of aim, but we can do something about people taking runs at him.
Sidney Crosby could have been flanked by Steve MacIntyre and Eric Godard both carrying pistols and Chara would have still punched him in that situation.

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06-22-2013, 11:27 AM
  #122
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Originally Posted by Ogrezilla View Post
Glass is a bad example because Glass is terrible too. The reason Mac over Glass might make sense is because dressing 1 less player would also make us a better team than dressing Glass simply because someone else would fill those minutes.

Mac is bad because he is probably the worst hockey playing goon I've seen on this team. Mac makes Colton Orr or Georges Laraque look like good hockey players.
Why do people keep claiming that Georges Laraque was a terrible player? Sure, his skating was terrible, but he had a decent set of hands.

He threw hard hits as well. He was one of the best enforcers to ever play for Pittsburgh.

He was ten times better than Jay Caufield and Steve McKenna combined. Those players were ****ing useless punching-bags.

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06-22-2013, 11:27 AM
  #123
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I don't think Big Mac is the solution, but I do think there's some value in having a bigger, more physical bottom 6 - or at least having a guy or two for the 4th line who's a solution there. There's definitely a trend developing towards fighters who can actually play; middleweights like Dorsett and Thornton and Bordeleau and so on. Whether we can get a guy like that is questionable. I think that was what Glass was supposed to be, but his actual skill level just isn't there, his skating isn't there, and to be quite honest he's not even really a big hitter; he makes contact but it's not good contact.

At the right price Clowe would be a nice fit too, but I question whether he'd be a good fit with Crosby due to his skating. He probably has the hockey sense to contribute in that role (and he certainly looked revitalized with NYR this year), but he may be better as the third wheel on Malkin's line.

That said, a guy like Clowe + a quick-ish middleweight for the bottom 6 would put us in good shape, and give us the flexibility to let guys like Kennedy go.

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06-22-2013, 11:27 AM
  #124
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Originally Posted by Ogrezilla View Post
Sidney Crosby could have been flanked by Steve MacIntyre and Eric Godard both carrying pistols and Chara would have still punched him in that situation.
Yep. And Chara would have not only gotten his ass beat, he would have been taken off the ice for 5 minutes.

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06-22-2013, 11:28 AM
  #125
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My point with Sid is that he should have known his jaw would get targeted in the series, so if one punch really threw him off his game, he's either really naive and stupid or he's mentally weak. I don't believe any of those things are true. Therefore, I believe you and others are making far too much out of this jaw punch incident. It's not even close to one of the reasons we lost that series.

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