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Old
07-01-2013, 09:01 PM
  #326
haseoke39
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Originally Posted by BadNewsPoe View Post
no I totally get what your saying, season the kids in the AHL for another year but what I don't understand is what do you expect to accomplish by signing some washed up over the hill player for a a year or two? just to fill spots when you can have the kids in those spots ACTUALLY playing in the NHL and learning.
The problem is that the wrong learning environment can do more harm than good.

If a player is surrounded by challenges that he's not prepared to face, pressure to perform to levels he's not capable of, and nobody to take the load from him or teach him good habits on the ice, he may come to rely on very narrow aspects of his game or adopt bad habits. E.g., if the only skill he can compete with are his wheels, and he feels like he's expected to carry the team, he may try to make every rush a home run rush by beating defenders to the outside, eventually becoming predictable and not really learning the full game.

You want a good balance where kids get the opportunity to challenge themselves, but aren't forced to try to carry a team when they don't have the tools to.

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07-01-2013, 09:02 PM
  #327
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Originally Posted by BadNewsPoe View Post
no I totally get what your saying, season the kids in the AHL for another year but what I don't understand is what do you expect to accomplish by signing some washed up over the hill player for a a year or two? just to fill spots when you can have the kids in those spots ACTUALLY playing in the NHL and learning.
I haven't mentioned any names, so I don't know who this "washed up, over-the-hill roster spot stealer" is that you seem to think I'm interested in adding. Acting like adding a veteran for free makes your team worse off in the long-run is laughable. Not only does that player likely help with the development of your young guys, that player can be flipped for assets at some point down the line.

I'm not advocating signing a bunch of guys and making a hodge podge team like Florida from a couple years ago. I'm not advocating throwing stupid money at Horton. I'm saying that Darcy will likely make a couple middle-of-the-road signings to fill holes. One of those will likely be a veteran center, which pushes Porter down or off the roster, puts Ennis back at wing (where he belongs), and helps shelter Hodgson and possibly Grigorenko away from defensive zone draws. I'm sure you may counter with "But that steals a spot from Girgensons!," to which I will per-emptively counter, "I watch the Amerks. Girgs needs more AHL time and played just a handful of games at center."

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Old
07-01-2013, 09:02 PM
  #328
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Originally Posted by haseoke39 View Post
Presuming we deal Miller and Vanek, we have to sign some veterans just to get to the cap floor, so get over it.

Trust me, a bottom 3 finish is my #1 goal for next year, but I still think the right veteran can be really invaluable to the rebuild. These guys are top prospects because they learned how to play the junior game extremely well. That test is over now. The NHL is a different animal. Coaches can do a lot, but having an older player who is smart, confident and technically sound to observe can be invaluable. I want to say especially because our head coach is an NHL rookie, too.
I would agree with everyone to draft threw free agency if Vanek and Stafford are not here but if they are still here, there is no point drafting threw free agency to take up a spot. How are the kids in the AHL suppose to learn from these free agents who are taking their spots from learning.

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Old
07-01-2013, 09:06 PM
  #329
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Originally Posted by Jame View Post
proper roster construction, role distribution, and leadership for a young team

not having a vet "over the hill" 3rd line center last year forced Ennis into a role he was ill suited for. that's not good for his development.

a lack of veteran 2 way forwards throughout the lineup hurt guys like Hodgson whose defensive games are not developed enough to carry the load night to night.


with the trade of sekera, we will have multiple rookie defensemen stepping in to starting roles... it would be good to add some veteran depth to ease the transition so that we don't have to pair 2 rookies together.

there are a lot of reasons... think about it
Exactly. Our young centers were hurt badly last year by not having a vet center in the lineup....even a Cullen type would have made a world of difference.

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Old
07-01-2013, 09:06 PM
  #330
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Originally Posted by Rhett4 View Post
I haven't mentioned any names, so I don't know who this "washed up, over-the-hill roster spot stealer" is that you seem to think I'm interested in adding. Acting like adding a veteran for free makes your team worse off in the long-run is laughable. Not only does that player likely help with the development of your young guys, that player can be flipped for assets at some point down the line.

I'm not advocating signing a bunch of guys and making a hodge podge team like Florida from a couple years ago. I'm not advocating throwing stupid money at Horton. I'm saying that Darcy will likely make a couple middle-of-the-road signings to fill holes. One of those will likely be a veteran center, which pushes Porter down or off the roster, puts Ennis back at wing (where he belongs), and helps shelter Hodgson and possibly Grigorenko away from defensive zone draws. I'm sure you may counter with "But that steals a spot from Girgensons!," to which I will per-emptively counter, "I watch the Amerks. Girgs needs more AHL time and played just a handful of games at center."
Well if Vanek and Stafford are gone then I'm all for the free agency, if not then I don't see a point.

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Old
07-01-2013, 09:14 PM
  #331
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Originally Posted by Rhett4 View Post
One of those will likely be a veteran center, which pushes Porter down or off the roster, puts Ennis back at wing (where he belongs), and helps shelter Hodgson and possibly Grigorenko away from defensive zone draws.
This is the one hole that might need to be addressed, and I wonder if they'll wait to see how Larsson looks in camp and consider him at 3C, or just sign someone as 3C to have Larsson challenge Porter for 4C.

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Old
07-01-2013, 09:18 PM
  #332
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This is the one hole that might need to be addressed, and I wonder if they'll wait to see how Larsson looks in camp and consider him at 3C, or just sign someone as 3C to have Larsson challenge Porter for 4C.
I think a lot of that depends on what they do with Grigs. Larsson is probably the most ready for the NHL, though, and I could see him on the roster out of camp. If not, he'd be a quick call up after the first injury. I still think a veteran center fits, particularly if you move Ennis back to LW, but they'd have to reconfigure things a little.

Larsson and Girgensons had some serious chemistry going in Rochester the last 10 days or so of the 'Merks season...so they could send him to Roch for another bit to explore that. In two year, those two could be a dynamite LW-C combo. Both bulls. Both strong on the puck. Not the most offensively dynamic, but still, a lot to like.

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Old
07-01-2013, 09:32 PM
  #333
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i dont see the point of signing any free agents this year. actually i could see 1/2 moves that could net us picks at the deadline if we sign them. We have everything we need to be a mediocre team that finishes near the bottom.
LET ALL THE YOUNG PLAYERS GET VITAL AHL EXPERIENCE!

Vanek Hodgson Stafford
Foligno Ennis Leino
Ott Porter Tropp
Gerbe McCormick Kaleta

Scott/Ellis

Myers Ehrhoff
Pysyk Mcbain
Weber Ruhwedel

Pardy/Sulzer

Enroth
Khabibulin 1yr 2.8 million

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Old
07-01-2013, 09:56 PM
  #334
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Originally Posted by Sabresfansince1980 View Post
Ennis cries in the corner.
huge overlook by me, guess he could be switched with Leino who would drop down to the 3rd Line sending Larsson/Girgensons to Rochester.

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Old
07-01-2013, 09:56 PM
  #335
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malhotra...

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Old
07-01-2013, 10:02 PM
  #336
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malhotra...
4 years too late which is right up Darcy's alley in regards to free agency.

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Old
07-01-2013, 10:13 PM
  #337
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Originally Posted by Jame View Post
proper roster construction, role distribution, and leadership for a young team

not having a vet "over the hill" 3rd line center last year forced Ennis into a role he was ill suited for. that's not good for his development.

a lack of veteran 2 way forwards throughout the lineup hurt guys like Hodgson whose defensive games are not developed enough to carry the load night to night.

with the trade of sekera, we will have multiple rookie defensemen stepping in to starting roles... it would be good to add some veteran depth to ease the transition so that we don't have to pair 2 rookies together.

there are a lot of reasons... think about it
I'm with Jame on this one. Definitely wouldn't mind 1/2 vet UFA's in order to help the kids mature. Also, I haven't seen much talk about Jagr in this thread recently, should we sign him? he has a proven record of helping younger player's with his experience and wisdom, would you sign him? at the very least we could do what Dallas did, which would be to sign him to a one year deal and then move him at the deadline for assets. I'd do it.

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Old
07-01-2013, 10:41 PM
  #338
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Originally Posted by ZeroPT View Post
huge overlook by me, guess he could be switched with Leino who would drop down to the 3rd Line sending Larsson/Girgensons to Rochester.
Isn't Ennis able to play wing too?

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Old
07-01-2013, 10:51 PM
  #339
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Originally Posted by Guess What View Post
Isn't Ennis able to play wing too?
Yep he actually started off at LW in Buffalo. On a contending team Ennis is better suited as the #2 LW, especially with Grigorenko, Larsson and Girgensons coming up and Hodgson solidifying a top 6 center spotI would love to re-sign Vanek long term and roll with this top 9 forward group in 2015...

Vanek- Hodgson- Armia
Ennis- Grigorenko- Ott
Foligno- Girgensons/Larsson - Tropp

And with Larsson, Compher etc also in the pipeline this teams future is bright.

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Old
07-01-2013, 10:52 PM
  #340
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I cant see Jagr signing here but that would be a great signing and we could move him at the deadline for a 1st more importantly

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Old
07-01-2013, 10:55 PM
  #341
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Originally Posted by Layne Staley View Post
Yep he actually started off at LW in Buffalo. On a contending team Ennis is better suited as the #2 LW, especially with Grigorenko, Larsson and Girgensons coming up and Hodgson solidifying a top 6 center spotI would love to re-sign Vanek long term and roll with this top 9 forward group in 2015...

Vanek- Hodgson- Armia
Ennis- Grigorenko- Ott
Foligno- Girgensons/Larsson - Tropp

And with Larsson, Compher etc also in the pipeline this teams future is bright.
That's what I was thinking along the lines of in my head. I remember him being on wing here too. Just making sure, and thanks!

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07-01-2013, 11:21 PM
  #342
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I wonder if Ott wants to stay here...
Ott for Shinkaruk?

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Old
07-01-2013, 11:30 PM
  #343
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I wonder if Ott wants to stay here...
Ott for Shinkaruk?
NO...Ott seems like the guy that wants to be here for the rebuild and reap the benefits when it HOPEFULLY pays off in 2-3 years. I also want the moon AND the stars for him.

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Old
07-02-2013, 12:13 AM
  #344
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Vets add stability and leadership to a team. You can't just ice a bunch of 20-year-olds and say, "Well, we want to suck, so this helps us." Adding someone (for no assets) to your roster doesn't make your rebuild worse.
The problem is Horton's a player with questionable work ethic throughout his career. It dogged him in Florida and if you watched Lucic and Horton sleepwalk through the regular season together I don't think you'd want to bring him here. If you're a contending team then a player like that can put you over the top if he's good enough, but we aren't looking to be good, we just need vets to take up space and be good examples. I don't think he's a good example.

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It takes away a spot on the ice. There is no one on the market worth bringing in, theres a reason why these players are being bought out and let me put it this way, they are over the hill.

We have leadership in Ott, Vanek and Stafford if they stay.
Not every player on the market was bought out and it doesn't matter if a player is "over the hill". We could definitely still use 1-2 more quality veterans to adequately play roles younger players aren't ready for and to provide an even keel.

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Why would I want to see a Sabres team of over the hill players. I rather watch the young kids progress. You seem to act like Buffalo is making a run to the playoffs so add thru free agency around them. I don't think playoffs should be in anyone's mind next year or the year after. Vanek and Stafford will both be here til trade deadline most likely. Unless they get traded there is NO need for anyone thru free agency to take up a spot.
I wouldn't count on Vanek being here and you're missing the guy's point. It's not about trying to make the Sabres better, it's about not putting players in situations they aren't ready for. We'll still suck if we add Briere or Boyd Gordon, but it'll be better for the organization long-term if someone like that were here.

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Old
07-02-2013, 12:31 AM
  #345
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Originally Posted by VanekTheMvp View Post
NO...Ott seems like the guy that wants to be here for the rebuild and reap the benefits when it HOPEFULLY pays off in 2-3 years. I also want the moon AND the stars for him.
I hope he does want to stick aroud but if we dont have an extension worked out by the deadline I'm sure he could get a great return

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07-02-2013, 12:40 AM
  #346
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NO...Ott seems like the guy that wants to be here for the rebuild and reap the benefits when it HOPEFULLY pays off in 2-3 years. I also want the moon AND the stars for him.
I wanted the moon and the stars for Miller, Vanek, Drury, Briere, Razor, Peca, Hasek, LaFontaine and every other player I loved in the Blue and Gold. Boston and Chicago win for the same reason. The same motivation we want all our players to have. They play for the crest on the jersey. I think its time we acknowledge that there is no nice guy way to a championship, Pegula's "winning the right way". You make hard decisions and cut loose the rest. If that means Foligno and Ott need to go... well I don't know if I care anymore. Whoever brings us that trophy I'm sure in the heat of the moment I'll love. Lets be honest we're here for the most greedy reasons possible, personal satisfaction that will only come during those first few seconds after the last horn blows.

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Old
07-02-2013, 01:22 AM
  #347
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If we deal both Miller and Vanek, we'll be about $7M under the cap floor. Which is probably more than we'll spend on RFAs. So some FA or waiver claim is definitely in order.

I don't know if Ballard is the guy. Ideally, you want someone with strong work ethic, leadership skills, and a positive mentor figure all around.
I went througgh this....

If Vanek and Miller are dealt without retaining salary their salary is about $13.4M

Signing the free agents...I said:

Weber $1.5M (its $1.66M)
Hodgson $3.5M
Flynn $1.3M
sulzer $1M
Pardy $1M

total of $8.3M

net is -$5M ....

thus Sabres would be around $45M


that doesnt take into account Armia or Larsson making the team.

If Pardy and Sulzer arent signed---they get a vet Dman for $2.5M per

The deal of sekera costs them about $1M where McBain makes about $1M less.

That is why any miller/Vanek deal would involve them retaining salary so that they have a buffer to move Stafford at the deadline.

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07-02-2013, 01:33 AM
  #348
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The problem is Horton's a player with questionable work ethic throughout his career. It dogged him in Florida and if you watched Lucic and Horton sleepwalk through the regular season together I don't think you'd want to bring him here. If you're a contending team then a player like that can put you over the top if he's good enough, but we aren't looking to be good, we just need vets to take up space and be good examples. I don't think he's a good example.


I have no interest in filling roster space with veterans on deadend contracts that will just take up cap room. I want $10M space available for a run at some trades/UFAs in 2014.

any veteran signed would be 2 yr max contract.

i dont want to overpay just to bring in a veteran.

Id rather go after the vet leadership stuff when we are ready to take that next step and be a playoff team...next year i am not expecting it.

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07-02-2013, 01:36 AM
  #349
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Originally Posted by Rhett4 View Post

Larsson and Girgensons had some serious chemistry going in Rochester the last 10 days or so of the 'Merks season...so they could send him to Roch for another bit to explore that. In two year, those two could be a dynamite LW-C combo. Both bulls. Both strong on the puck. Not the most offensively dynamic, but still, a lot to like.

Reminder---If Girgs gets called up he still has that 9 game limit otherwise his contract slides.

they burned Grigs so they will be careful with Girgs.

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Old
07-02-2013, 08:02 AM
  #350
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Reminder---If Girgs gets called up he still has that 9 game limit otherwise his contract slides.

they burned Grigs so they will be careful with Girgs.
Umm, not if they send him back to the Amerks.

Amerks or Sabres doesn't matter. Playing pro burns a year of his ELC. Girgs already used a season last year and he will again this year.

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