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What to do with Mikhail Grabovski?

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Old
06-24-2013, 07:55 PM
  #101
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only thing that'd work if he played #1 center
with that salary...

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06-24-2013, 09:14 PM
  #102
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Originally Posted by Dreakmur View Post
It's about options. He had an injured Tyler Bozak, a rookie Nazem Kadri, a rookie Joe Colborne, or a defensive specialist Jay McClement.

If those were my options, I would have used Grabovski a lot too.
Grabovski was used pretty extensively in the regular season as well. He was second amongst centres in ES TOI. Do remember that even-strength playing time requires sound two-way play in all three zones.

What's funny is that Colborne was being used against the top lines once the puck got into the offensive zone. That's normally a vulnerable spot. Continuing on, I still remembered when McClement who was on the wing got neutralized in the offensive zone and Colborne retrieved the puck, but got downed by Boychuk. I doubt Carlyle would be utilizing Kadri ( vs 17/46/18) in that manner so he certainly sees potential.

Don't get me wrong, I don't think Grabovski is suitable in a Bergeron/ Datsyuk-role either. That's why Colborne was used as an interim solution. He's simply the best fit, but I can't see Bozak ( he was used and failed against Crosby), McClement, or even Weiss being used over him. If we had Lecavalier or Thonrton sure, but the fact is that Grabovski needs stronger linemates.

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06-24-2013, 09:17 PM
  #103
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Let Bozak walk- put Grabo on the top 6. Don't put him in a checking role.

Can explore trades, but nothing that would require us giving any significant assets and/or eat a worst contract. Gaustad + Blum for Grabo makes some sense.

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06-24-2013, 09:40 PM
  #104
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Originally Posted by The_Chosen_One View Post
The centre position is a hell lot more difficult to play in a shut down role, though. You're expecting to have a lot more defensive responsibility especially with regards to backchecking.

The stats suggests that he played against the toughest competition outside of Kulemin. Do you now why Kulemin was higher? Well, time on ice is going to play a role. Grabs was given more minutes under less shifts ( vs Kul) suggesting that he was still on the ice when the top players left the ice. As I said earlier, Grabovski had a more positive relative corsi ( that is, in relation to linemates) than both Kulemin and McClement.

Umm, we have Jay McClement in the middle and Grabovski was #1 in ES TOI. He was obviously being utilized against the Krecji line so why overstretch the guy? I am pretty sure Randy Carlyle - who took us to game 7 OT - knows what he is doing.
Grabo played on the 3rd line because he was beaten out by Kadri for a top 6 role and Randy Carlyle deemed Bozak as a better Center for Kessel.

Fact is Grabo was not good enough to play anything other than a 3rd line role, one that did get PP time but obviously the Coach felt he was not good enough to play in the top 6 for the Leafs.

When you examine what Grabo has done under Carlyle, 73GP, 28 points, -26

You can easily see why RC had him pasted to the only role available to him.

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06-24-2013, 09:50 PM
  #105
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Originally Posted by Interactif View Post
Grabo played on the 3rd line because he was beaten out by Kadri for a top 6 role and Randy Carlyle deemed Bozak as a better Center for Kessel.

Fact is Grabo was not good enough to play anything other than a 3rd line role, one that did get PP time but obviously the Coach felt he was not good enough to play in the top 6 for the Leafs.

When you examine what Grabo has done under Carlyle, 73GP, 28 points, -26

You can easily see why RC had him pasted to the only role available to him.
Safe to say, the fact that Grabo doesnt play on either PK unit, is a good sign that he's a pretty crappy 3rd line / shutdown centre.

Without even getting into my own observations about him or looking at other stats. If youre a shutdown centre, you should be the primary PK guy. His offence is dried up, he's not intimidating, defensively he's so-so, and he doesnt help special teams.

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06-24-2013, 09:55 PM
  #106
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Originally Posted by Interactif View Post
Grabo played on the 3rd line because he was beaten out by Kadri for a top 6 role and Randy Carlyle deemed Bozak as a better Center for Kessel.
You can't be playing on third line role if you're first in TOI amongst forwards in the playoffs, or second amongst C in the regular season. He was clearly the number 2 guy.

Quote:
Fact is Grabo was not good enough to play anything other than a 3rd line role, one that did get PP time but obviously the Coach felt he was not good enough to play in the top 6 for the Leafs.
The coach gave him more minutes than Kadri. Since the playoffs is largely a shutdown style event, with depth scoring playing a very important role (i.e. Bickell, Krueger, Krug, Paille, etc) instead.

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When you examine what Grabo has done under Carlyle, 73GP, 28 points, -26
Yes, when you look at how he was utilizes, the vast majority of his starts were in the defensive zone. I expect that kind of performance when you're up against the top lines with an under 30% OZone start.

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You can easily see why RC had him pasted to the only role available to him.
Yes, that's why he was first in even-strength TOI amongst forwards in the playoffs.

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06-24-2013, 09:57 PM
  #107
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Originally Posted by 416Leafer View Post
Safe to say, the fact that Grabo doesnt play on either PK unit, is a good sign that he's a pretty crappy 3rd line / shutdown centre.

Without even getting into my own observations about him or looking at other stats. If youre a shutdown centre, you should be the primary PK guy. His offence is dried up, he's not intimidating, defensively he's so-so, and he doesnt help special teams.
Not necessarily, because playing defensively on three zones are quite different from playing in one zone. More so, we have a defensive specialist in McClement who has been signed to specifically deal with that.

There is a reason why consistently, we saw X - Grabovski - Kulemin up against the top line. It's because that line is the most effective in establishing possession against top lines. On the other hand, Jay McClement is a possession negative player up against the third or fourth lines.

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06-24-2013, 10:00 PM
  #108
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Originally Posted by 416Leafer View Post
Safe to say, the fact that Grabo doesnt play on either PK unit, is a good sign that he's a pretty crappy 3rd line / shutdown centre.

Without even getting into my own observations about him or looking at other stats. If youre a shutdown centre, you should be the primary PK guy. His offence is dried up, he's not intimidating, defensively he's so-so, and he doesnt help special teams.
Hard to disagree with this analysis, I would add he does not make anyone around him better and he is not the most consistent player, or he should be for 5.5 per.

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06-24-2013, 10:13 PM
  #109
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Originally Posted by The_Chosen_One View Post
You can't be playing on third line role if you're first in TOI amongst forwards in the playoffs, or second amongst C in the regular season. He was clearly the number 2 guy.

The coach gave him more minutes than Kadri. Since the playoffs is largely a shutdown style event, with depth scoring playing a very important role (i.e. Bickell, Krueger, Krug, Paille, etc) instead.

Yes, when you look at how he was utilizes, the vast majority of his starts were in the defensive zone. I expect that kind of performance when you're up against the top lines with an under 30% OZone start.

Yes, that's why he was first in even-strength TOI amongst forwards in the playoffs.
Mcclement had one more point than Grabo did last season and he was not -20 doing it, in almost the same role I might add, though Jay kills penalties and he is paid 4M per less and doesn't get any PP time unlike Grabo.

This is pretty telling just how terrible Grabo is to the Leafs from a cap hit perspective and production perspective when you compare him side by side to Mcclement.

Really looking forward to your excuse...I mean response on this one.

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06-24-2013, 11:26 PM
  #110
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Originally Posted by Interactif View Post
Mcclement had one more point than Grabo did last season and he was not -20 doing it, in almost the same role I might add, though Jay kills penalties and he is paid 4M per less and doesn't get any PP time unlike Grabo.
The +/- metric is pointless when you don't consider how the players are being utilized. McClement was largely against third and fourth line scrubs, and yet was possession negative. On the other hand, Grabovski was possession negative while up against the top lines.

How do you think he ended up with -14? Were those goals produced by depth players? It's obviously that you have irrational hatred for Grabs. Randy was depending on Grabs move than extensively. I remembered always seeing 84 when our opponent's talented lines were up.

Quote:
This is pretty telling just how terrible Grabo is to the Leafs from a cap hit perspective and production perspective when you compare him side by side to Mcclement.
Considering that McClement has never produced 50 points, I can see why Grabs has a much larger cap. Most teams would take Grabovski at a 4.5 million dollar salary, because they know he can produce >20G and >50 if utilized well.

Quote:
Really looking forward to your excuse...I mean response on this one.
There's no excuses here. You just have a neurotic hatred for Grabovski. I don't see you knocking Stastny or Weiss who produced less than him during ES and has a +/- of -7 and -13 respectively.

Those who cluster with Grabs +/-:

Quote:
reports: Summary | Assists | Bios | Division | Faceoff Leaders | Faceoffs | Goals | Home | Penalties | Plus/Minus | Points | Real-Time Stats | Road | Shooting % Leaders | Shooting % | Shootouts | Special Teams (PP, PK, OT) | Time On Ice
Print Legend
2012-2013 - Regular Season - Skater - Points - Plus/Minus Player Team Pos GP G A P +/- ESP SHP PPP HmP RdP DvP ODvP P/G
781-810 of 839 results.
First | Prev | 23 | 24 | 25 | 26 | 27 | 28 | Next | Last

Team Pos GP P +/-

781 Tim Wallace
CAR
R 28 2 -9
782 Andrej Meszaros
PHI
D 11 2 -9
783 Brett Clark
MIN
D 8 1 -9
784 Tomas Fleischmann
FLA
L 48 35 -10
785 Teemu Selanne
ANA
R 46 24 -10
786 Mikhail Grabovski
TOR
C 48 16 -10
787 Scott Gomez
SJS
C 39 15 -10
788 Nick Spaling
NSH
L 47 13 -10
789 Drew Shore
FLA
C 43 13 -10
790 Jay Harrison
CAR
D 47 10 -10
791 Chris Butler
CGY
D 44 8 -10
792 Braydon Coburn
PHI
D 33 5 -10
793 Brian Lashoff
DET
D 31 5 -10
794 Philip Larsen
DAL
D 32 5 -10
795 Jacob Josefson
NJD
C 22 3 -10
796 PA Parenteau
COL
R 48 43 -11
797 Peter Mueller
FLA
C 43 17 -11
798 Tom Gilbert
MIN
D 43 13 -11
799 Tyson Barrie
COL
D 32 13 -11
800 Craig Smith
NSH
C 44 12 -11
801 David Jones
COL
R 33 9 -11
802 Derek Dorsett
CBJ
R 24 9 -11
803 Tanner Glass
PIT
L 48 2 -11
804 Quinton Howden
FLA
C 18 0 -11
805 Matt Duchene
COL
C 47 43 -12
806 Jamie Benn
DAL
C 41 33 -12
807 Dany Heatley
MIN
L 36 21 -12
808 Marek Zidlicky
NJD
D 48 19 -12
809 Steve Sullivan
PHX, NJD L 42 17 -12
810 Mike Santorelli
FLA, WPG C 34 4 -12
Weiss performed even worse, and yet the Panthers went nowhere. Grabovski to a high of 14 to -10, and this team went to the playoffs. Coaches utilize assets in order to win games and not boost individual statistics. The years when players like Stastny or Weiss were given roles that would improve their individual statistics while their respective teams went nowhere.

More importantly, the +/- stat is rubbish.

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06-25-2013, 08:01 AM
  #111
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Originally Posted by Dreakmur View Post
That would be great for Grabovski. Unfortunately, it hurts the team.

Do we do what's best for a player, or what's best for the team?
Youre completely wrong. The guy is a proven 50 pt centre and is a warrior. if used properly how in the hell does that hurt the team?

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06-25-2013, 08:16 AM
  #112
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Grabo should be a last resort if we're not successful in acquiring another top six centerman.

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06-25-2013, 08:22 AM
  #113
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Youre completely wrong. The guy is a proven 50 pt centre and is a warrior. if used properly how in the hell does that hurt the team?
In order for him to be a 50 point center he would need to receive top 6 TOI/g minutes and PP time and quality linemates.

That would mean that Grabovski and Kadri are Leafs top 2 centers next season in order for your projection to occur, and no upgrades at center.

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06-25-2013, 08:24 AM
  #114
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Originally Posted by Mess View Post
In order for him to be a 50 point center he would need to receive top 6 TOI/g minutes and PP time and quality linemates.

That would mean that Grabovski and Kadri are Leafs top 2 centers next season in order for your projection to occur, and no upgrades at center.
I admit thats not ideal, and kadri likely has a bit of regression. but what if grabo puts up his 55 points and kadri cracks 65 with kessel?

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06-25-2013, 08:36 AM
  #115
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Originally Posted by VoicexOfxReason View Post
I admit thats not ideal, and kadri likely has a bit of regression. but what if grabo puts up his 55 points and kadri cracks 65 with kessel?
God help us then,our search for a #1 center is over.

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06-25-2013, 08:38 AM
  #116
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Grabo is probably not in play for the simple reason, return now is likely less then return at TDL.

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06-25-2013, 08:41 AM
  #117
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Originally Posted by The_Chosen_One View Post
The +/- metric is pointless when you don't consider how the players are being utilized. McClement was largely against third and fourth line scrubs, and yet was possession negative. On the other hand, Grabovski was possession negative while up against the top lines.

How do you think he ended up with -14? Were those goals produced by depth players? It's obviously that you have irrational hatred for Grabs. Randy was depending on Grabs move than extensively. I remembered always seeing 84 when our opponent's talented lines were up.

Considering that McClement has never produced 50 points, I can see why Grabs has a much larger cap. Most teams would take Grabovski at a 4.5 million dollar salary, because they know he can produce >20G and >50 if utilized well.

There's no excuses here. You just have a neurotic hatred for Grabovski. I don't see you knocking Stastny or Weiss who produced less than him during ES and has a +/- of -7 and -13 respectively.

Those who cluster with Grabs +/-:

Weiss performed even worse, and yet the Panthers went nowhere. Grabovski to a high of 14 to -10, and this team went to the playoffs. Coaches utilize assets in order to win games and not boost individual statistics. The years when players like Stastny or Weiss were given roles that would improve their individual statistics while their respective teams went nowhere.

More importantly, the +/- stat is rubbish.
No offence, but your posts are far too long and pointless to put an effort into reading for a hockey board.

Cutting and pasting stats, throw mud on the wall approach to posting is not a very effective way of making a point.

I'm sure the selective stats in your mind point to Grabo is the best player in the NHL in a stats fantasy world. Fact is he is one of the worst overpaid Center's in the NHL, and certainly on the Leafs in the real world.

The guy doesn't kill penalties
The guy has no physical game
The guy is a terrible playmaker
The guy is inconsistent and can't be counted on
The guy plays half the game from the seat of his pants
The guy does not make players better around him. Ie, unlike Kadri who did very well with those same 2 mediocre wingers.

18 points in 55 games, That's a 26 point pace over a 82 game schedule. That's 4th line material.

-20 last year was the worst on the Leafs, no one is remotely close.

End of discussion.

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06-25-2013, 08:44 AM
  #118
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Originally Posted by theremedial View Post
Grabo is probably not in play for the simple reason, return now is likely less then return at TDL.
Leafs taking .5 in capspace in the Bernier deal makes Grabo even more a buyout possibility, the guy stinks. He's toast, he's over the hill at 30. Taken too much hits for that small frame.

If Leafs sign any Center, the losing Grabo era is over.

He's a 5.5 Lead ball to Leafs going forward.

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06-25-2013, 08:45 AM
  #119
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I admit thats not ideal, and kadri likely has a bit of regression. but what if grabo puts up his 55 points and kadri cracks 65 with kessel?
It all comes down to ice time and opportunity..

Matt Stajan while Leafs top center put up.

2008-09 - Toronto Maple Leafs - 76 games 15 goals 40 assists 55 points
2009-10 - Toronto Maple Leafs - 55 games 16 goals 25 assists 41 points (before trade to Calgary)

Grabovski would be like Stajan of 2008-09 and Kadri would be like Stajan of 2009-10. So a Grabovski /Kadri 1-2 tandem would adequately replace the Stajan offense.

If Grabovski is utilized like he was last season as a 3rd line, limited PP player and checking role then he would struggle to hit 40 points. He would now be replacing the Dominic Moore 63 games 12 goals 29 assists 41 points former 3rd line center of the past.

I agree that it would not be ideal.


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06-25-2013, 08:48 AM
  #120
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The +/- metric is pointless when you don't consider how the players are being utilized.
The +/- stat is rubbish period. Doesn't change the fact that Grabo was absolute garbage last year.

It's amazing, even after 20+ years of watching it, but I swear Leaf Nation has come up with more excuses for Grabo's terrible season last year than they've come up with for any other player's performance in the last 20+ years of Leafs hockey. Fact is, he's being paid like a top 6 forward, and he lost his top 6 forward position due to poor play. Not Carlyle being an idiot, not out of some desire to make him a defensive forward, not any of the ******** constantly thrown around here and elsewhere. EVERY SINGLE WINGER he played with went through a prolonged scoring slump that mysteriously seemed to end when that winger was moved to another line. Grabovski failed to produce anything resembling offense with every winger we have except Kessel and the fighters. His playoff performance was abysmal to say the least; for a guy who "was the only center to show up", he still managed to do nothing but get knocked around all series. On top of that, his salary is utterly ridiculous. I didn't think he was worth $5.5 million when the contract was signed, and that was as a 30-goal scoring center. He's certainly not worth it with the way he's playing now. He needs to go, NOW.

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06-25-2013, 08:49 AM
  #121
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Grabo's game was quite horrific this year. He constantly got thrown out in faceoffs, lacks vision and blew many scoring opportunities as a result, not physical and his shot wasn't very good either.

I hope he bounces back next season...clearly something is off with his game. My fear is that he isn't compatible with the Carlyle style of play rendering him useless on our team.

I like Grabo a lot (or liked) but the team makeup moving forward seems to have left Grabo as the odd man out. I think we're trading him at the draft to a more offensively minded transition team. Like it or not we're moving away from that and moving towards a puck possession physical game.

What Nonis does with Grabo and to a lesser extent Bozak are the most interesting aspects of our off season this year.

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06-25-2013, 08:53 AM
  #122
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The +/- stat is rubbish period. Doesn't change the fact that Grabo was absolute garbage last year.

It's amazing, even after 20+ years of watching it, but I swear Leaf Nation has come up with more excuses for Grabo's terrible season last year than they've come up with for any other player's performance in the last 20+ years of Leafs hockey. Fact is, he's being paid like a top 6 forward, and he lost his top 6 forward position due to poor play. Not Carlyle being an idiot, not out of some desire to make him a defensive forward, not any of the ******** constantly thrown around here and elsewhere. EVERY SINGLE WINGER he played with went through a prolonged scoring slump that mysteriously seemed to end when that winger was moved to another line. Grabovski failed to produce anything resembling offense with every winger we have except Kessel and the fighters. His playoff performance was abysmal to say the least; for a guy who "was the only center to show up", he still managed to do nothing but get knocked around all series. On top of that, his salary is utterly ridiculous. I didn't think he was worth $5.5 million when the contract was signed, and that was as a 30-goal scoring center. He's certainly not worth it with the way he's playing now. He needs to go, NOW.
Amen, preaching to the choir brother.

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06-25-2013, 08:57 AM
  #123
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Grabo's game was quite horrific this year. He constantly got thrown out in faceoffs, lacks vision and blew many scoring opportunities as a result, not physical and his shot wasn't very good either.

I hope he bounces back next season...clearly something is off with his game. My fear is that he isn't compatible with the Carlyle style of play rendering him useless on our team.

I like Grabo a lot (or liked) but the team makeup moving forward seems to have left Grabo as the odd man out. I think we're trading him at the draft to a more offensively minded transition team. Like it or not we're moving away from that and moving towards a puck possession physical game.

What Nonis does with Grabo and to a lesser extent Bozak are the most interesting aspects of our off season this year.
Good point Leafs under RC are not a puck possession team.

Puck possession to me is another term for "puck hog". Some of the best players in the NHL have low puck possession stats, ie. Crosby. This is because they have elite hockey sense for making plays. Something the tunnel visioned Grabo has no concept of.

Puck possession is another red herring to the Grabo excusers. One thing is for sure when Grabo coughs up the puck, something he does alot of, he has no concept how to defend. That is by far a more important point that is lost with the pro Grabo crowd.

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06-25-2013, 09:01 AM
  #124
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Originally Posted by Mess View Post
It all comes down to ice time and opportunity..

Matt Stajan while Leafs top center put up.

2008-09 - Toronto Maple Leafs - 76 games 15 goals 40 assists 55 points
2009-10 - Toronto Maple Leafs - 55 games 16 goals 25 assists 41 points (before trade to Calgary)

Grabovski would be like Stajan of 2008-09 and Kadri would be like Stajan of 2009-10. So a Grabovski /Kadri 1-2 tandem would adequately replace the Stajan offense.

If Grabovski is utilized like he was last season as a 3rd line, limited PP player and checking role then he would struggle to hit 40 points. He would now be replacing the Dominic Moore 63 games 12 goals 29 assists 41 points former 3rd line center of the past.

I agree that it would not be ideal.
Grabo can play 1st line or second this season it doesn't matter. Say we get Weiss I think Kadri is a good fit for the 3rd simply because he still performs on it and he can improve defensively.

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06-25-2013, 09:04 AM
  #125
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Originally Posted by theremedial View Post
Grabo can play 1st line or second this season it doesn't matter. Say we get Weiss I think Kadri is a good fit for the 3rd simply because he still performs on it and he can improve defensively.
Why not bet our entire season on Weiss' wrist and Grabo's tantrum?

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