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What to do with Mikhail Grabovski?

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Old
06-25-2013, 09:05 AM
  #126
bruyns
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Originally Posted by Interactif View Post
No offence, but your posts are far too long and pointless to put an effort into reading for a hockey board.

Cutting and pasting stats, throw mud on the wall approach to posting is not a very effective way of making a point.

I'm sure the selective stats in your mind point to Grabo is the best player in the NHL in a stats fantasy world. Fact is he is one of the worst overpaid Center's in the NHL, and certainly on the Leafs in the real world.

The guy doesn't kill penalties
The guy has no physical game
The guy is a terrible playmaker
The guy is inconsistent and can't be counted on
The guy plays half the game from the seat of his pants
The guy does not make players better around him. Ie, unlike Kadri who did very well with those same 2 mediocre wingers.

18 points in 55 games, That's a 26 point pace over a 82 game schedule. That's 4th line material.

-20 last year was the worst on the Leafs, no one is remotely close.

End of discussion.
I really hope you take your own advice and this is the "end of discussion" for you. All you ever do in any thread where Grabovski is brought up is repeat all your same points about him and how terrible he is.

WE GET IT!!! You don't think he is a good hockey player. Please stop with the constant repetitve posts trying to convince everyone how terrible he is with near meaningless stats like +-.

Do you really think anyone on this board really cares about your opinion on Grabovski? Unless this is your 1st day here everyone knows you have a hate on for the guy and it doesn't matter what arguments or stats people bring up nothing is going to change your mind.

Threads would be more enjoyable if every single one regarding Grabovski didn't result in you chiming in and spewing all your negativities about how he is the worst. What is the end game for you with Grabovski? Do you think constantly regurgitating +- and point totals is going to convince the entire board that you are the definitive opinion on Grabovski's talent and the people will rise up and protest at the ACC with "buy out Grabbo" signs forcing management's hands, then the boards will rejoice and annoint Interactif a hero and legend for ridding us of the "black hole" that is Grabovski?

Your whole act is tiresome and annoying, you don't like him and that opinion is valid and you are entitled to it, but stop trying to shove it down people's throats and dismissing anything that doesn't fit your narrative.

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06-25-2013, 09:09 AM
  #127
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Originally Posted by Lightsol View Post
Why not bet our entire season on Weiss' wrist and Grabo's tantrum?
It could be Weiss or other, if you didn't notice our team rely on the wingers. We have damn good wingers so in an ideal world I think speedy defensively responsible C with very good playmaking ability is most important. They also need be durable but not necessarily stars. We could have a great team with 3 2c's

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06-25-2013, 09:10 AM
  #128
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Originally Posted by frankthetank91 View Post
This is one of the least clear answers of the offseason. Grabovski who we just re-signed last year, has struggled this season. Prior to that he was a good second line center. However many will say he is still overpaid even if he regained that form.

Now assuming this offseason we:

-Sign a center(most likely Weiss or a smaller chance at re-signing Bozak, trading for Stastny, signing Ribeiro etc.)

That player will play on the top line. The second line C position is locked for Kadri.

Now let's say our top 6 looks like:

JVR-Weiss-Kessel
Lupul-Kadri-Clarkson

Where does Grabovski fit? Now he most likely would be able to play on the 3rd line with Kulemin but do we want to pay 5.5 for a 3rd line center?

Now I know alot of you say Carlyle misuses him but I don't see where else Carlyle can put him. He doesn't work with Kessel, the 2nd line is set so what happens to Grabo?

Trade? Buyout?(which i've heard is unlikely by some media people), or give him a chance to rebound on the 3rd line(although overpaid)

What should be done with Grabo?
I don't think there is any chance they buy him out.

If they can move him and the return makes sense, they do it.
If not, they give him this season to turn it around.

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06-25-2013, 09:10 AM
  #129
Interactif
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Originally Posted by bruyns View Post
I really hope you take your own advice and this is the "end of discussion" for you. All you ever do in any thread where Grabovski is brought up is repeat all your same points about him and how terrible he is.

WE GET IT!!! You don't think he is a good hockey player. Please stop with the constant repetitve posts trying to convince everyone how terrible he is with near meaningless stats like +-.

Do you really think anyone on this board really cares about your opinion on Grabovski? Unless this is your 1st day here everyone knows you have a hate on for the guy and it doesn't matter what arguments or stats people bring up nothing is going to change your mind.

Threads would be more enjoyable if every single one regarding Grabovski didn't result in you chiming in and spewing all your negativities about how he is the worst. What is the end game for you with Grabovski? Do you think constantly regurgitating +- and point totals is going to convince the entire board that you are the definitive opinion on Grabovski's talent and the people will rise up and protest at the ACC with "buy out Grabbo" signs forcing management's hands, then the boards will rejoice and annoint Interactif a hero and legend for ridding us of the "black hole" that is Grabovski?

Your whole act is tiresome and annoying, you don't like him and that opinion is valid and you are entitled to it, but stop trying to shove it down people's throats and dismissing anything that doesn't fit your narrative.
Thanks for the advice, but this is a discussion board. My advice is to use the ignore button.

My points on Grabo are very much to the theme of this thread.

Now my advice to you is discuss the post, not the poster or apply to be a moderator. It's not your place to tell people how to post.

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06-25-2013, 09:11 AM
  #130
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Originally Posted by theremedial View Post
Grabo can play 1st line or second this season it doesn't matter. Say we get Weiss I think Kadri is a good fit for the 3rd simply because he still performs on it and he can improve defensively.
Kessel and Grabovski have been teammates for the past 4 seasons in Toronto, how much time would you guesstimate that they have seen as linemates during that time?

Since the number is relatively small, why do you think that is?

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06-25-2013, 09:18 AM
  #131
bruyns
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Originally Posted by Interactif View Post
Thanks for the advice, but this is a discussion board. My advice is to use the ignore button.

My points on Grabo are very much to the theme of this thread.

Now my advice to you is discuss the post, not the poster or apply to be a moderator. It's not your place to tell people how to post.
OK then why end a post with "end of discussion" if this is a discussion board? Your opinion does not carry more weight than others and repeating the same things ad nauseum does not constitute the end of a discussion.

My point is you are so transparent in every thread and bring nothing new or interesting to discussions other than harping on the same tired points you have been going on and on about all year. Give it up already we all know your opinion on Grabovski, do you not get bored of arguing the same thing constantly?

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06-25-2013, 09:23 AM
  #132
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Originally Posted by Mess View Post
Kessel and Grabovski have been teammates for the past 4 seasons in Toronto, how much time would you guesstimate that they have seen as linemates during that time?

Since the number is relatively small, why do you think that is?
Grabo has better chemistry with JVR and regarding Kessel they have had some quality playing moments together.

Versteeg bounced around 3 teams playing 3rd line minutes before one team stuck him on the first line. Sometimes it appears it just is what it is and coaches figure it's good enough and don't venture.

Holzer was a crapy D for 20+ games before it dawned upon RC. Lupul wanted to play the off wing for years.

Then you have guys like Bowman, guys that say oh well hey now Mr. Federov I think you can slot in at D and it worked. The biggest problem in all of this was oddly, Bozak never got injured, when he did we saw Kessel is better with Kadri.

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06-25-2013, 09:23 AM
  #133
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Originally Posted by Mess View Post
Kessel and Grabovski have been teammates for the past 4 seasons in Toronto, how much time would you guesstimate that they have seen as linemates during that time?

Since the number is relatively small, why do you think that is?
People have this hilarious myth that Grabovski and Kessel don't work together when they literally played maybe 4 games together in the 2010/2011 season. They have not played a single game together since then. In that time frame, Kessel has become an elite passer and has improved in every facet of the game. Up until this season, the same argument could've been made for Grabovski. Kessel tends to make the players he plays with better than they are and he would be a perfect playmaker if Grabovski manages to get his sniping ability back that he had from 2010 to 2012. I honestly see no harm in trying them together but it will likely never happen. They've played together sporadically during line changes and have generated speed and pressure too. Here are some goals literally scored when they were in the middle of shifting lines:

Kessel and Grabovski set up Liles.


Kessel sets up Grabovski.


Kessel and Liles set up Grabovski for an OT goal.


Kessel sets up Grabovski for an OT goal.


Kessel sets up Kulemin.

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06-25-2013, 09:27 AM
  #134
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I like the guys effort but we need results.

Paying an awful lot of money for .33 points per game.

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06-25-2013, 09:28 AM
  #135
ACC1224
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Originally Posted by BraveCanadian View Post
I like the guys effort but we need results.

Paying an awful lot of money for .33 points per game.
This is pretty much what it comes down to.

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06-25-2013, 09:31 AM
  #136
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Above, precisely. We have 4 special players on this team.

Kadri, Kessel, Lupul, Gardiner.

Each of these will elevate the play of any linemates. Guys like Grabo need to be with one of these special types for things to happen.

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06-25-2013, 09:31 AM
  #137
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Originally Posted by bruyns View Post
OK then why end a post with "end of discussion" if this is a discussion board? Your opinion does not carry more weight than others and repeating the same things ad nauseum does not constitute the end of a discussion.

My point is you are so transparent in every thread and bring nothing new or interesting to discussions other than harping on the same tired points you have been going on and on about all year. Give it up already we all know your opinion on Grabovski, do you not get bored of arguing the same thing constantly?
Read the last paragraph of my last and what will be my only reply to you unless you have anything hockey related to add.

My posting habits or anyone elses here is not of your concern.

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06-25-2013, 09:41 AM
  #138
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Originally Posted by BonMorrison View Post
People have this hilarious myth that Grabovski and Kessel don't work together when they literally played maybe 4 games together in the 2010/2011 season.
See, here's my issue with the constant "try Grabo with Kessel" argument. You notice a pattern in the series of goals you posted? It's always Kessel to Grabo for a goal.

Kessel is a great passer, and a great goal scorer. With Grabo as his center, there's a very good chance we never see the latter, as we've already seen, repeatedly, that Grabo doesn't like to pass (he seems to prefer charging into the offensive zone by himself with 4 D-men in front of him). Worse, Grabo's backchecking is lousy at best, meaning that we're requiring Kessel to cover for him defensively as well. Better have a great defensive winger on the other side.

Kessel is most effective when played with either a setup center or a primarily defensive center. Despite being a goat in Toronto, Bozak has been effective as the latter, and Kadri has shown he can work as the former. Grabo's skillset fits neither.

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06-25-2013, 09:44 AM
  #139
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The main problem with Grabo is he is creative neutral. He is not bad but not amazing at making plays. He carries the puck at almost if not Elite level often to nowhere. His shot is deadly but last year it was off the mark as well. It was just a bad season for the guy and nobody is going to buy that out. He needs another shot somewhere else on the team and if it doesn't work try someone else.

I see him in this cycle of... Has good linemates things go well for him he passes more. Then he has struggling linemates and after a bit he tries to do everything himself but he doesn't just do that, he gets literally stuck in this mentality and starts looking dumb out there. The guy wants to do things his determination is never in question, he had a health problem and now we probably won't have Bozak keeping him back.

Will be interesting to see what he does with creative wings.

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06-25-2013, 09:47 AM
  #140
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Lightsol View Post
See, here's my issue with the constant "try Grabo with Kessel" argument. You notice a pattern in the series of goals you posted? It's always Kessel to Grabo for a goal.

Kessel is a great passer, and a great goal scorer. With Grabo as his center, there's a very good chance we never see the latter, as we've already seen, repeatedly, that Grabo doesn't like to pass (he seems to prefer charging into the offensive zone by himself with 4 D-men in front of him). Worse, Grabo's backchecking is lousy at best, meaning that we're requiring Kessel to cover for him defensively as well. Better have a great defensive winger on the other side.

Kessel is most effective when played with either a setup center or a primarily defensive center. Despite being a goat in Toronto, Bozak has been effective as the latter, and Kadri has shown he can work as the former. Grabo's skillset fits neither.
That's why I said Kessel's elite passing would compliment Grabovski's pre-2013 finishing ability. You can make the exact same argument for Tyler Bozak when saying that you always see Kessel set him up but not the contrary. Bozak is just as questionable at what you stated that trying Grabovski is literally a no-lose scenario. If it doesn't work then it doesn't work but it's not like it'll be a significant difference to when Bozak was his center. And yes, I agree he needs a defensive player on that line which is why I've long advocated for a line of Kulemin - Grabovski - Kessel. That would create a 2nd line of Lupul - Kadri - Van Riemsdyk (if he can play RW).

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06-25-2013, 12:07 PM
  #141
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I can see a really good fit for Grabo in chicago, they've been looking for that #2C for a while now and Grabo would work wonders with the wingers in Chicago. Maybe a deal could work around Grabo for a defencemen and a cap dump?

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06-25-2013, 01:54 PM
  #142
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Originally Posted by trueleafsfan1 View Post
I can see a really good fit for Grabo in chicago, they've been looking for that #2C for a while now and Grabo would work wonders with the wingers in Chicago. Maybe a deal could work around Grabo for a defencemen and a cap dump?
no they are already really tight on the cap, and they dont have anyone to cap dump, all their cap is spent on legitimately good players. We would be getting Hossa back lol you think they would do that... We could probably squeeze Bolland off of them because they are gonna want room to sign Bickell.

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06-25-2013, 01:57 PM
  #143
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If Grabo goes anywhere its down the road to Detroit.

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06-25-2013, 02:53 PM
  #144
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Originally Posted by BonMorrison View Post
That's why I said Kessel's elite passing would compliment Grabovski's pre-2013 finishing ability. You can make the exact same argument for Tyler Bozak when saying that you always see Kessel set him up but not the contrary. Bozak is just as questionable at what you stated that trying Grabovski is literally a no-lose scenario. If it doesn't work then it doesn't work but it's not like it'll be a significant difference to when Bozak was his center. And yes, I agree he needs a defensive player on that line which is why I've long advocated for a line of Kulemin - Grabovski - Kessel. That would create a 2nd line of Lupul - Kadri - Van Riemsdyk (if he can play RW).
Grabo centered wingers that got 60 points apiece a couple of years ago. There is no basis for assuming he will strangle Kessel when Mac and Kule had career years with him. His road stats, when playing with Kule and McClement, were better than Bozaks with Kessel and JVR. He isn't a top line center on a contender but at least he is an actual top 6 player. Regardless of what you think about his defense, he led the club in plus minus for the previous 3 years, so whatever his warts are, they weren't hurting the club. Its a no lose because they can still trade, compliance, or whatever 20 games into the season. I disagree they need a checker on the line for it to work , and especially not a 7 goal scorer. I would sooner have Bozak on the lw then watch Kulemin fail to connect.

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06-25-2013, 03:33 PM
  #145
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Originally Posted by Lightsol View Post
Why not bet our entire season on Weiss' wrist and Grabo's tantrum?
WTF? Now you've made an argument worse then Interactifs, congrats!

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06-25-2013, 03:36 PM
  #146
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Originally Posted by bruyns View Post
OK then why end a post with "end of discussion" if this is a discussion board? Your opinion does not carry more weight than others and repeating the same things ad nauseum does not constitute the end of a discussion.

My point is you are so transparent in every thread and bring nothing new or interesting to discussions other than harping on the same tired points you have been going on and on about all year. Give it up already we all know your opinion on Grabovski, do you not get bored of arguing the same thing constantly?
Cut and Paste makes things easier for him.

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06-25-2013, 04:17 PM
  #147
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Shop him around at the draft. At this point I'll be surprised if he's a leaf after the trade deadline next year. It really depends on Kadri and Colborne's performances during the season

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06-25-2013, 10:33 PM
  #148
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Originally Posted by The Blue Devil View Post
WTF? Now you've made an argument worse then Interactifs, congrats!
Better than the assumption that you Grabo defenders seem to be making, which is that our coach, who has a Stanley Cup ring BTW, is intentionally or otherwise sabotaging the offensive ability of a player who's offense appears to have disappeared. Think about this for a minute; you seriously think it's more likely that Randy Carlyle doesn't know how to coach a player like Grabo, than it is that Grabo is being the typical pouty Russian who's mad about his role on the team being diminished by his own poor play and the emergence of a younger center?

Then again, Occam's Razor suggests the problem is simply that Grabo has always been overrated in Toronto, and now that he's being majorly overpaid, people are starting to see it.

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06-25-2013, 10:42 PM
  #149
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All this Grabo disrespect disgusts me. Shame on you.

JVR KESSEL
LUPUL KADRI
KULE GRABO

lets not mess with a good thing.

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06-25-2013, 10:47 PM
  #150
Lightsol
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Originally Posted by glasses91 View Post
All this Grabo disrespect disgusts me. Shame on you.

JVR KESSEL
LUPUL KADRI
KULE GRABO

lets not mess with a good thing.
That "good thing" is costing the Leafs $5.5 million/year and last year, was less a good thing and more a nightmare of disastrous proportions.

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