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What to do with Mikhail Grabovski?

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Old
06-27-2013, 12:59 PM
  #201
The Winter Soldier
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Originally Posted by GrabsOverHabs View Post
People like the player and are pulling stats to support him however they can. It's the same thing a lot of people who don't like him have done. It shouldn't really come as a surprise. It happens when any player is discussed. I like Grabovski and I have raised an eyebrow at arguments on both sides of the fence.

What worries me the most about these discussions is the lack of patience in our fan base. I understand you were not a fan of Grabovski from day one Interactif, so I'm leaving you out of this, but there are fans that loved the guy for years and now want him shipped out or bought out because of one season (a half season at that!). I worry that Kadri will be a victim of the same sort of criticism if he takes on a raise next season and doesn't perform to the same level (both of which seem likely).

Two poor seasons? Sure, find a way to move him out, but one half season? Too much of a knee-jerk reaction for my liking.
I really think he had only one good year, that was 10-11. All 3 guys on the KGM line all had career years, I am really sceptical they will reproduce that magic again.

KGM was not as effective in 11-12, and in 12-13 were pretty much disbanded.

I think a lot of Grabo fans are holding onto the Grabo of 10-11, where 58 points is the standard for him.

My belief his best days have come and gone, I just don't see any value having him on our roster at 5.5

I always said the day he was no longer a top 6 C on our team, the team would move fwd. Kadri did that for us, and no coincidence it is why we made the playoffs last year.

My lasting thought of Grabo will be whiffing on the Bergeron series winning goal, quite appropiate for him to go out a loser on the Leafs.

I will say this about you as a poster, you have been one of the more reasonable Grabo fans I have conversed with here. Can't say that too much in the year + debates here.

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06-27-2013, 01:11 PM
  #202
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Originally Posted by The_Chosen_One View Post
Grabovski was always manning the shut down line. I think where the confusion lies is when Kadri was facing the Tavares line. Their line is often fielded against weaker lines in the offensive zone. Regardless, Grabovski had significant even-strength TOI than Kadri in the regular and post-season. He limited Grabovski's minutes, because he wanted Bergeron-level production. However, Kadri's line continued to be sheltered even throughout the year.

Yes, Grabovski couldn't produce Zetterberg-style, but the fact is that Grabovski was utilized heavily on the defensive end. During the regular season, Randy was heavily depending the McClement - Grabovski - Kulemin line in the defensive end, against tougher competition, a lot more than Komarov or Orr. That remained the case in the playoffs as well with McClement regularly being swapped with JVR/ MacArthur.
LOL i get it now, I finally understand why your comebacks are just deflections. You cant produce anything actually relevant that would suggest in ANY WAY that anything grabo has done under RC to this point was a right off, and that there are offensive outbursts to come. You cant even give 1 piece of concrete evidence on why you think that grabo has shown offensive promise over the last year and a half, all you talk about is kadri, colborne being a 2c, and how jmac sucks. Lets hear some actual evidence on why you think grabo should be 1c, when he hasnt shown offensive promise under RC. Better yet, explain how he was bad offensively under RC before russia, was basically ppg in russia, comes back and regresses offensively? Under RC grabo has not shown significant offensive promise in order to deserve/warrant better opportunities offensively.

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06-27-2013, 01:12 PM
  #203
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Originally Posted by The_Chosen_One View Post
The playmaker-finish dynamic work, but playmakers don't have to be centres. For instance, St Louis is the primary playmaker, while Stamkos is the finisher. That centre is probably the best finisher in the NHL.

Similarly, Mario Lemieux is probably one of the best goal scorers of all time. Interestingly, he was a centre, and pretty turned everyone around him into assistmans. Well, Jagr is a winger and is an extremely talented playmaker as well.

I wonder, do you remember Eric Lindros and Legion of Doom? He was an extremely balanced centre with amazing goal scoring ability. He had a centre converted as a winger, Brind'Amour on his wing to feed him pucks. Yes, he had a playmaker on his wing and it worked and on the other side was John LeClair who did the same. Yes, he an elite finisher, but his playmaking ability was amazing. He was able to make passes from anywhere and could do it while on one leg.

Blah blah blah. James Neal is a power forward. He can produce goals off the crease or snipe it in. Neal needs to be setup while Kessel can either make excellent passes or utilize his quick release thanks to his elite vision.

The fact that Kessel is not a versatile finisher as Ovechkin is not an attack on him. He was actually compared to Sidney Crosby ( who doesn't have the pure goal scoring ability of Malkin) due to their ability to quickly find open passing and shoot lanes. Kessel's elite vision is why he was considered the "next great one", and like Crosby, his quick release has a significant speed and vision component. Crosby often produces goals on the rush much like Kessel.


Blah Blah Blah. Stamkos is hell lot more of a pure goal scorer than Phil Kessel. The guy is a 60 goal scorer, while Kessel is probably will be a consistent 40, maybe 50, goal guy.

When Kessel was on a line with Savard, he actually played like a pedestrian. On the other hand, he plays a lot better when he is allowed to distribute the puck. Treating him like Hemsky is just a waste of talent. His vision is arguably amongst the best in the world, and is essential component in his game that will never have a significant physical component.

My point is that Kessel doesn't need a setup man, because he's a pretty elite playmaker. It would be like getting St Louis an assistman when it isn't necessary. Instead, Kessel needs a big #1 centre or least a centre who can finish his plays. I just don't see how Stastny/ Weiss are the solution. Neither are top line centres, and neither are possession positive centres as well. I'd rather use Bozak and then have Kadri on the top line.
Kessel is a PRIMARY GOAL SCORER on this team, grabo hasnt warranted play time with him / see post above

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06-27-2013, 01:15 PM
  #204
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There is way too many players available that I want Grabo to stay. Please trade or buy him out.

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06-27-2013, 01:28 PM
  #205
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Originally Posted by frankthetank91 View Post
There is way too many players available that I want Grabo to stay. Please trade or buy him out.
ugg the "pro grabo committee" will be out in full force soon, be ready.

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06-27-2013, 01:57 PM
  #206
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Originally Posted by GrabsOverHabs View Post
People like the player and are pulling stats to support him however they can. It's the same thing a lot of people who don't like him have done. It shouldn't really come as a surprise. It happens when any player is discussed. I like Grabovski and I have raised an eyebrow at arguments on both sides of the fence.

What worries me the most about these discussions is the lack of patience in our fan base. I understand you were not a fan of Grabovski from day one Interactif, so I'm leaving you out of this, but there are fans that loved the guy for years and now want him shipped out or bought out because of one season (a half season at that!). I worry that Kadri will be a victim of the same sort of criticism if he takes on a raise next season and doesn't perform to the same level (both of which seem likely).

Two poor seasons? Sure, find a way to move him out, but one half season? Too much of a knee-jerk reaction for my liking.
Most reasonable post from either side so far. It's perfectly fine to dislike the player but I feel like some people in here literally have a vendetta against him. Like if they saw him in the streets, they'd take a bat to his knees.

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06-27-2013, 02:01 PM
  #207
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Originally Posted by BonMorrison View Post
Most reasonable post from either side so far. It's perfectly fine to dislike the player but I feel like some people in here literally have a vendetta against him. Like if they saw him in the streets, they'd take a bat to his knees.
no vendetta, we want offensive promise, and we want it now! 5.5 for garbage production is buyout worthy, last chance grabooooooo better start scoring

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06-27-2013, 02:04 PM
  #208
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Grabo is a victim of his cap number, good player, probably not worth his 5.5 cap hit, and the term that goes along with it, if he isn't a top six guy, that is too much of a number for a checking line centre, and hurts the overall salary structure of the team.

Good player bad number, so he is easy to target, just fuels we could have this guy if we didn't have so much commited to Grabo ect... or we have to move him or include him if we want to take on an impact player of big salary too. I wonder if Calgary would have some interest???

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06-27-2013, 02:17 PM
  #209
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If teams can buy out Ilya Bryzgalov and Vinny Lecavalier on huge contracts no reason why we should be ******* and not buyout Grabo if we need the cap space. The guy is a 40-50 point center. He is 29 years old. If we buy him out he will not sign with another team and become a 70 point center. He is what he is.

We have 2 buyouts, MLSE has the money, he's gotta go.

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06-27-2013, 02:38 PM
  #210
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Yes! the grabo haters are coming out of the woodworks now in support of the cause! heres to a graboless future! #nograbo2014 Im telling ya, nonis is rdy to flip the switch!

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06-27-2013, 02:57 PM
  #211
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Delete.


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06-27-2013, 03:03 PM
  #212
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Originally Posted by BonMorrison View Post
No vendetta?
What's a Vandetta

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06-27-2013, 03:13 PM
  #213
Mikeyg
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Originally Posted by BonMorrison View Post
No vendetta?
NOPE. To much of a rationalist to let that stuff cloud my vision. IDC if you are opposite side of the spectrum from me or anything like that, all I know is that 5.5 m you need to produce, and there is 0 evidence to warrant excitement with respect to production. IDK how you guys are supporters but cant answer that question.

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06-27-2013, 03:15 PM
  #214
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Thank god for ignore lists.


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06-27-2013, 03:18 PM
  #215
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Originally Posted by BonMorrison View Post
"yes! the grabo haters are coming out!"
"here's to a graboless future"
"#nograbo14"

Explain to me what part of this doesn't show signs of a vendetta and signs of rationalism.
nono, how about you answer my question ive been asking for 2 days. I think its hilarious that people are supporting this cause without evidence, and people are finally realizing how dangerous this contract is going forward, and it is absolutely OK for people to be expressing concern.

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06-27-2013, 03:20 PM
  #216
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Originally Posted by BonMorrison View Post
"yes! the grabo haters are coming out!"
"here's to a graboless future"
"#nograbo14"

Explain to me what part of this doesn't show signs of a vendetta and signs of rationalism.
My earlier posts where people were actually talking numbers were rational in every context of the word, I think you guys are running out of actual credible arguments now, and Im having a good time with it.

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06-27-2013, 03:27 PM
  #217
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Originally Posted by Mikeyg View Post
NOPE. To much of a rationalist to let that stuff cloud my vision. IDC if you are opposite side of the spectrum from me or anything like that, all I know is that 5.5 m you need to produce, and there is 0 evidence to warrant excitement with respect to production. IDK how you guys are supporters but cant answer that question.
I think it is more because most people don't write a player off after one bad year. He isn't 35, injured, or a drunk and so there is no reason to believe he can't have another 55 point season.

It doesn't mean pencil him in long term as their #1 c, because he was only signed as the #2 guy and Kadri took the one spot open for midgets. If Kadri was 6'2" they could maybe consider a player of Grabovski's ilk but there just isn't the spot. What it does mean is see if he can be dealt dealt for value, or see if he can play some value back into his game and then deal him. Why drop a player for nothing? Why re-sign a marginal talent like Bozak when they already have a spare #2 c under contract? He isn't worth 5.5 but until they are ready to spend that money, it isn't an issue, just a number.

Right now MG is just insurance so they won't be centerless when they let Boz hang while they go hunting for another center (still achance Boz comes back). I think the Weiss rumours indicate they don't have a spot for Grabo except by default, and if they could lock up their new #1 today, he would be moved at the draft. It could still happen if they sign Vinny

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06-27-2013, 03:32 PM
  #218
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Originally Posted by nuck View Post
I think it is more because most people don't write a player off after one bad year. He isn't 35, injured, or a drunk and so there is no reason to believe he can't have another 55 point season.

It doesn't mean pencil him in long term as their #1 c, because he was only signed as the #2 guy and Kadri took the one spot open for midgets. If Kadri was 6'2" they could maybe consider a player of Grabovski's ilk but there just isn't the spot. What it does mean is see if he can be dealt dealt for value, or see if he can play some value back into his game and then deal him. Why drop a player for nothing? Why re-sign a marginal talent like Bozak when they already have a spare #2 c under contract? He isn't worth 5.5 but until they are ready to spend that money, it isn't an issue, just a number.

Right now MG is just insurance so they won't be centerless when they let Boz hang while they go hunting for another center (still achance Boz comes back). I think the Weiss rumours indicate they don't have a spot for Grabo except by default, and if they could lock up their new #1 today, he would be moved at the draft. It could still happen if they sign Vinny
no this 1c notion was from those 2 above, thats the joke. Ive said multiple times that I wouldnt buy him out this year, and that this coming season is his last chance. Im just stating that he hasnt proven he can produce under RC. He went from bad prod under RC to good production in russia back to bad under RC. That says its either hes not competing hard enough in the nhl game play, or just just not who he used to be in the nhl. I cant see him not being bought out or moved next yr if its another lackluster performance, and honestly I dont think nonis will be content with this bad play for much longer, especially when he looks to be trigger happy these days

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06-27-2013, 03:52 PM
  #219
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no this 1c notion was from those 2 above, thats the joke. Ive said multiple times that I wouldnt buy him out this year, and that this coming season is his last chance. Im just stating that he hasnt proven he can produce under RC. He went from bad prod under RC to good production in russia back to bad under RC. That says its either hes not competing hard enough in the nhl game play, or just just not who he used to be in the nhl. I cant see him not being bought out or moved next yr if its another lackluster performance, and honestly I dont think nonis will be content with this bad play for much longer, especially when he looks to be trigger happy these days
Make up your mind! You go from saying

"yes! the grabo haters are coming out!"
"here's to a graboless future"
"#nograbo14"

to

"Ive said multiple times that I wouldnt buy him out this year, and that this coming season is his last chance."

You come across like you are hoping for failure rather than hoping he has a solid bounce back season. Rational fans want him to make a positive contribution to the team since A. it makes us better and B. it increases trade value if we go this route.

Don't pretend like you want to give him a last chance if you want to spout off with things like #nograbo14. Like others have mentioned it makes you look like you have an irrational vendetta against him and ignore anything said to you and revert back to your favourite buzz word of "no offensive promise".

I want the Leafs to succeed above all else, whether that be with Grabovski contributing or not is irrelevent to me since I place team success over individual success. Some of the over zealous haters seem to be more concerned with getting rid of the guy then doing what is best for the team.

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06-27-2013, 03:54 PM
  #220
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Buying out Grabovski is just bad asset management. I want him moved, but would atleast want to get a return. He'll definitely succeed elsewhere. That said, if we want to acquire a bigger c and be successful long-term, we need to make our players attractive.

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06-27-2013, 04:25 PM
  #221
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The problem with the "one bad year" claim is it's not really one bad year. It's been pretty much since Carlyle took over from Rotten Ronnie. I swear it has something to do with entitlement; Carlyle is the kind of coach you have to earn your chances with. He called out Grabo multiple times over his lack of production, but Grabo never picked it up. The guy fell from 2nd line to 3rd line to periodic 4th line by the end of the year, as other centers moved up the depth chart past him. It seems that there is SOMETHING that is causing Carlyle to reward the other centers with ice time and not Grabo here, and I tend to agree with Mikeyg that it's because Grabo isn't doing himself any favors right now. If he wants increased offensive ice time, he needs to show a sign that he's willing to do what it takes to score again. Haven't seen that from him yet.

I'm starting to wonder if Grabo is the kind of player that requires an all-offence coach like Ron Wilson to be successful.

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06-27-2013, 06:00 PM
  #222
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Originally Posted by The_Chosen_One View Post
Buying out Grabovski is just bad asset management. I want him moved, but would atleast want to get a return. He'll definitely succeed elsewhere. That said, if we want to acquire a bigger c and be successful long-term, we need to make our players attractive.
if the Leafs can't deal him, than keeping him rather than buying him out is bad asset management, his contract becomes an albatross and his place on the team is in question.

It was Burke's deal and now Nonis has to clean it up, better to cut bait and start over than have a guy a target of a fanbase, can't see how that will help him or the team succeed.


just my opinion though, I do see your point....it just looks bad.

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06-27-2013, 06:09 PM
  #223
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The problem with the "one bad year" claim is it's not really one bad year. It's been pretty much since Carlyle took over from Rotten Ronnie. I swear it has something to do with entitlement; Carlyle is the kind of coach you have to earn your chances with. He called out Grabo multiple times over his lack of production, but Grabo never picked it up. The guy fell from 2nd line to 3rd line to periodic 4th line by the end of the year, as other centers moved up the depth chart past him. It seems that there is SOMETHING that is causing Carlyle to reward the other centers with ice time and not Grabo here, and I tend to agree with Mikeyg that it's because Grabo isn't doing himself any favors right now. If he wants increased offensive ice time, he needs to show a sign that he's willing to do what it takes to score again. Haven't seen that from him yet.

I'm starting to wonder if Grabo is the kind of player that requires an all-offence coach like Ron Wilson to be successful.
Lol, wut?

If it's about earning your minutes, use the end of the season/playoffs for your example. Your question is answered. Grabo earned his minutes, and Randy leaned on him

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06-27-2013, 06:14 PM
  #224
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if the Leafs can't deal him, than keeping him rather than buying him out is bad asset management, his contract becomes an albatross and his place on the team is in question.

It was Burke's deal and now Nonis has to clean it up, better to cut bait and start over than have a guy a target of a fanbase, can't see how that will help him or the team succeed.


just my opinion though, I do see your point....it just looks bad.
NO. T_C_O was right. It's awful asset management to spend over 20 million dollars, just to get rid of a contract that is doing nothing to hamper your organization by being there. It's not preventing you from signing someone else, it's not putting you over the limit, nothing.

You're taking away a part of this team, by buying out that contract, and looking to plug an un-experienced piece in it's place. It's just getting rid of him for the sake of it.

And Mikeyg, this last page of diatribe you've been on, is anything but level-headed and "rational". I love how people call themselves "rational", yet want to offload a guy who had been our best center for 3 years prior to this one, over not even a full season's sample size.

That's not rational. That's blind. And yes, it is. Plain and simple. Thank God you're not the GM. Players see you give up and throw them under the bus after struggling for a 58 game stretch, and your team is sure to be a prime destination.

I guess we should've given up on Kulemin, right? When everyone said "he has to go!", "trade him for picks!". Same story.

No foresight, and very little "rational" thinking.

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06-27-2013, 08:17 PM
  #225
Mikeyg
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Originally Posted by bruyns View Post
Make up your mind! You go from saying

"yes! the grabo haters are coming out!"
"here's to a graboless future"
"#nograbo14"

to

"Ive said multiple times that I wouldnt buy him out this year, and that this coming season is his last chance."

You come across like you are hoping for failure rather than hoping he has a solid bounce back season. Rational fans want him to make a positive contribution to the team since A. it makes us better and B. it increases trade value if we go this route.

Don't pretend like you want to give him a last chance if you want to spout off with things like #nograbo14. Like others have mentioned it makes you look like you have an irrational vendetta against him and ignore anything said to you and revert back to your favourite buzz word of "no offensive promise".

I want the Leafs to succeed above all else, whether that be with Grabovski contributing or not is irrelevent to me since I place team success over individual success. Some of the over zealous haters seem to be more concerned with getting rid of the guy then doing what is best for the team.
No grabo 2014 means after next year, stop making drama, I am free to say and voice my opinion, I have said the same thing for the last 5 months now, this season coming up is his last chance, and he will be gone by 2014 if hes terrible in 2013. I like how you are quick to talk about team play, but hes been an offensive cancer to every pair of wingers hes been with this year. Teams are made of individual efforts, and how about you stop deflecting and actually ask yourself if you think he is "putting out" offensively. Rest assured, no offense at the start of the season = no grabo by 2014

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