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Astrology of 2013 draft

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Old
06-26-2013, 03:10 PM
  #101
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AmericanDream View Post
what is he frauding?

again I do not see the big deal..

there are other posters who have other systems to rank players like Mathletic I believe...I dont think he has to explain his system but when you talk about stars and astrology..well lets all demand we know Cuprum's system..

I couldnt care less either way, just enjoy the read..if not just move on as nobody is entitled to explanations or anything on here...regardless of what he claims or if he started this thread, he simply doesn't owe anyone any explanation...

...and even if he explains his system, 99% will still not understand it, be completely lost, and then say it must be BS since we do not get it.

I just want to see someone put some blind samples up there with no players name...find some players who are prospects, out of the league, busts, or NHL stars and put the information he needs to make his projection without any names and then reveal who the players real name is...that is the only way to see if this holds any water or not..
Fraud as in the person may not have actually used Astrology to arrive at the conclusions that they did. I can't say for sure that is the case here, but it's a possibility that must considered.

It's a discussion board, and I think it's entirely fair to call Mathletic's methods into question if he claims to have a black box method of evaluating prospects. Whether people choose to do so is a separate issue. Just because some others choose to give someone a free pass, doesn't mean that everyone else needs to withhold their criticisms. I would defend Wiz's right to do so here as much as I would in those other threads, and add that it is entirely fair to ask those questions of claims that they feel require explanations.

I find it odd that people are so willing to attack Wiz for engaging with the OP in the same way that we do in virtually every other thread. What makes this particular claim special?

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06-26-2013, 03:22 PM
  #102
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Originally Posted by Exit Dose View Post
Fraud as in the person may not have actually used Astrology to arrive at the conclusions that they did. I can't say for sure that is the case here, but it's a possibility that must considered.

It's a discussion board, and I think it's entirely fair to call Mathletic's methods into question if he claims to have a black box method of evaluating prospects. Whether people choose to do so is a separate issue. Just because some others choose to give someone a free pass, doesn't mean that everyone else needs to withhold their criticisms. I would defend Wiz's right to do so here as much as I would in those other threads, and add that it is entirely fair to ask those questions of claims that they feel require explanations.

I find it odd that people are so willing to attack Wiz for engaging with the OP in the same way that we do in virtually every other thread. What makes this particular claim special?
again I have no problems with asking...but the dude said he isnt revealing it, so how many more times do we need to hear the man say "no" before it registers with people?

and like I stated, even if he reveals his system, will you, I, or 95% of the posters have any idea about what he is talking about?? we know nothing of these theroies and terms they go by so honestly I think certain posters are crying over nothing.

then why aren't more people asking how Mathletic or others who use a formula or stat system to come up with their projections and rankings? I just think the OP is being singled out here.

I really only quoted you for the fraud comment as you havent really dug into the OP so most of what I am saying is for other posters...

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06-26-2013, 03:24 PM
  #103
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I find it odd that not everyone in this thread is calling the OP to task on a scouting system that he claims is based on the alignment of the stars when players are born.

I feel like I'm taking crazy pills here.

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06-26-2013, 03:25 PM
  #104
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AmericanDream View Post
again I have no problems with asking...but the dude said he isnt revealing it, so how many more times do we need to hear the man say "no" before it registers with people?

and like I stated, even if he reveals his system, will you, I, or 95% of the posters have any idea about what he is talking about?? we know nothing of these theroies and terms they go by so honestly I think certain posters are crying over nothing.

then why aren't more people asking how Mathletic or others who use a formula or stat system to come up with their projections and rankings? I just think the OP is being singled out here.

I really only quoted you for the fraud comment as you havent really dug into the OP so most of what I am saying is for other posters...
As far as I know, Mathletic doesn't use any factors that have nothing to do with hockey to evaluate prospects. I could be wrong though.

I don't particularly care, honestly. I'm just treating this guy like I would the rapture crowd. They've got the same rationale for 'proving' their theories: "In time, we'll see who's right"

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06-26-2013, 03:31 PM
  #105
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Original post
Quote:
Originally Posted by Cuprum View Post
Hi, recently I've been making studies in a field of sport astrology and came up with a rating system. Maybe it is not perfect etc but it gives very very promising results regarding established players (up and downs in career, major injuries etc.) with known birth times.
Later post by OP
Quote:
Cuprum: As for Datsyuk it is good idea, i will make him, but step by step explanation is not possible because 1)it will be overwhelmingly big
2) I don't want to share my system

Quote:
Kokoepuffs:.....It pains me to see so many HFers treating this hogwash seriously, or at least with some intrigue.


I can't stand it anymore so I'll weigh in with Wiz and K-puff.

There are so many holes in this silly thing that are so obvious that it is staggering.

Look at his own posts. The first post says it provides promising results for established players. Then in a later post OP decides to test it on Datsyuk for our benefit??????? Holy mother of all things logical-- the system has been so tested for accuracy as to yield "very,very promising results regarding established players" that one of the top 10 players on the planet hasn't even been "tested"? Seriously? Seriously? We should stop right there people.

Forget that OP doesn't provide any meaningful data on the "promising results" achieved. He didn't even test Datsyuk. Did he post a list of 500 established players with numbers? No. Top 50 players in the world? No. Past greats? Zed/Zero/Zilch. Of course, he could make them up in 20 minutes but he hasn't even bothered to do that.

After (in his own words) he says he hasn't even bothered to test one of the top 10 players in the world, he then only finds the super special magical info on the top 5 of the draft plus, when prompted, a single late round guy that he boldly declares mediocre. He needs the time of birth for more players....

So what time was Seth Jones born? Anyone? Does OP know? Did he post it? Has he posted birth times for each of the top 5? No. He says "The birth time is the most important info, but I can rectify it more or less correctly based on major dates in life of the player, transfers, major injuries, sticking out personality traits, absolutely everything". Seriously? Wow. In this day and age, that info is available in equal measure for every player in at least the top 100 to the same level as the top 5. It's on this freakin hockey obsessed board in large measure. Use the search function. Has he used it? No. Will he? No.

Has he provided a single example of a late round guy that has a score in the top 10? No. Has he made one remotely bold prediction? No. Will he? No.

OP's claims are unsubstantiated and unvalidated. That part is clear. What is disturbing is that OP utterly fails to make any effort- in fact flaunts in his own posts, the lack of effort- to take or provide any of the most basic steps toward that kind of validation. It offends that he then presents it as fact and expects to be taken seriously. It is depressing that some seem so willing, so easily to do so.


Last edited by braindead: 06-26-2013 at 03:36 PM.
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06-26-2013, 03:31 PM
  #106
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Delicious Pancakes View Post
And how do you know this is what he does? Are you psychic?
If not, could you explain to me the system you used to make this "pretty clear" to you?.....See what I did there?

Also why does it pain you that others treat this seriously? What people do with their time is their business, you can't control what other people do.

I think it's pretty apparent by peoples' comments in this thread that they're skeptical but willing to check back down the road and see if there's any legitimacy to it. For myself I think it's fun to look at "what if's" and see things from a philosophical viewpoint. If 99/100 things of this variety are "hogwash" but 1/100 holds weight then somebody's going to profit from putting in the time and being willing to fail. That's how progress is made sometimes. Ever hear about how people thought the world was flat? How do you think scientific advancements are made? Lots of failures and theories that proved to be dead-ends giving way to something that works. The OP is trying to test a theory and is persisting despite a lot of negative criticism. I respect that, it takes courage.

Cuprum I encourage you to continue to pursue this however I don't have any birth times to help you out.
The time of day someone is born has absolutely no impact on his life whatsoever. To suggest otherwise is simply illogical and nonsensical. You can make a claim that the time of year a player was born in can slightly correlate to his success since it'd change his age relative to those he plays against. But this wouldn't be all that strong.

Therefore, creating a system to give these players these values is pretty much impossible, or would take a high order, very complex formula by relying on dates and times of irrelevant things:

Seth Jones: 236
Valeri Nichushkin: 200
Nathan Mackinnon: 139
Alexander Barkov: 129
Jonathan Drouin: 70
Marko Dano: 93
Alexandre Daigle: 77
Pavel Datsyuk: 205
Duncan Keith: 189
Sidney Crosby: 301

In this day and age putting any faith into astrology, horoscopes and all that supernatural junk is completely unfounded and quite simply nonsense. Under that basis, to create a formula using irrelevant data (e.g. birth times) to make a fairly accurate ranking would require insane complexity and/or guesswork.

It's possible that this guy has a formula worked out, but that would be no more likely to give Sidney Crosby a 301 as it would to Jeff Finger. It actually could be fairly likely that these numbers are correct using the formula, but he is obviously neglecting to mention the lousy players that have high scores, and the good players with lousy scores.

From this, in can pretty much be concluded that he is either guessing or has neglected to show the inaccurate scores.

Your "world is flat" analogy is very off base since their was mounting evidence for that. What evidence is there to suggest that Nathan Mackinnon being a Virgo will change his career? Absolutely none.

It pains me because I don't like being surrounded by people that treat irrational, nonsensical, completely unfounded guesswork with any sort of validity.

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06-26-2013, 03:31 PM
  #107
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Originally Posted by AmericanDream View Post
again I have no problems with asking...but the dude said he isnt revealing it, so how many more times do we need to hear the man say "no" before it registers with people?

and like I stated, even if he reveals his system, will you, I, or 95% of the posters have any idea about what he is talking about?? we know nothing of these theroies and terms they go by so honestly I think certain posters are crying over nothing.

then why aren't more people asking how Mathletic or others who use a formula or stat system to come up with their projections and rankings? I just think the OP is being singled out here.

I really only quoted you for the fraud comment as you havent really dug into the OP so most of what I am saying is for other posters...
Sorry if I wasn't clear, I'm saying it's also okay to take someone to task, but as per TOS to 'attack the idea, and not the poster'. I don't think Wiz has crossed that line.

Quote:
Originally Posted by NobodyBeatsTheWiz View Post
I find it odd that not everyone in this thread is calling the OP to task on a scouting system that he claims is based on the alignment of the stars when players are born.

I feel like I'm taking crazy pills here.
I feel ya.

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06-26-2013, 03:34 PM
  #108
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Originally Posted by NobodyBeatsTheWiz View Post
As far as I know, Mathletic doesn't use any factors that have nothing to do with hockey to evaluate prospects. I could be wrong though.

I don't particularly care, honestly. I'm just treating this guy like I would the rapture crowd. They've got the same rationale for 'proving' their theories: "In time, we'll see who's right"
that is fine, but we are beating a dead horse here when it comes to asking him to reveal his system.

regardless if his system is like the evil witch in the Kevin Costner 1991 Robin Hood movie, who pours some blood and spits into a pan scratching it with a 3 inch finger nail, I couldnt care less...

maybe if we put some effort into getting some info on some players and sending that to him blindly we can see just how terrible this is...and of course I mean players who busted, are still prospects, guys who are NHLers, just mix it up and see what he comes up with...

I am all for that.

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06-26-2013, 03:36 PM
  #109
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Originally Posted by AmericanDream View Post
that is fine, but we are beating a dead horse here when it comes to asking him to reveal his system.

regardless if his system is like the evil witch in the Kevin Costner 1991 Robin Hood movie, who pours some blood and spits into a pan scratching it with a 3 inch finger nail, I couldnt care less...

maybe if we put some effort into getting some info on some players and sending that to him blindly we can see just how terrible this is...and of course I mean players who busted, are still prospects, guys who are NHLers, just mix it up and see what he comes up with...

I am all for that.
Couldn't that be defeated with a search engine, though? We really have no way of controlling that experiment.

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06-26-2013, 03:38 PM
  #110
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then why aren't more people asking how Mathletic or others who use a formula or stat system to come up with their projections and rankings? I just think the OP is being singled out here.
No. Mathletics uses advanced stats and things that are, y'know, ACTULLY RELEVANT TO HOCKEY. His analysis is by no means perfect, but he at least factors in relevant information into his predictions. Not useless jargon like players' zodiac signs and time of birth.

Quote:
Originally Posted by braindead View Post
He didn't even test Datsyuk.
Thanks for your support here, but he did in fact post it. He got 205, which of course must prove his magical system to be true since it's not like he could make that number up or anything.

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06-26-2013, 03:41 PM
  #111
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I would suggest the OP put together a webpage/spreadsheet/macro that would allow any of us to enter the required birth date data, and it would output either a specific score (e.g., 70), or a general rating based on the score range that would have been returned (e.g., 'likely bust, will never play in NHL'). He could make it so that the method behind the calculations would be hidden.

He could then simultaneously validate his method and protect the trade secret.

Though I already know what response is coming: "It's too complex."

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06-26-2013, 03:43 PM
  #112
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Originally Posted by Exit Dose View Post
Couldn't that be defeated with a search engine, though? We really have no way of controlling that experiment.
how can you search out for all that info?

some of the info he needs isnt really common place stuff, it would have to be info that a poster would have because they really followed a player closely... birth day and time, injuries, etc..

I agree he "could" search and find the name, but maybe try to find lesser known prospects/NHLers/busts and go from there..we have seen how he ranks Crosby and Jones so we have the high to very high end numbers...I am sure some poster can put together some info, leave out the name (but PM another poster the name so we know it is accurate) and lets see what he can do with it...

I dont buy any of it but I am enjoying the read...I am interested to see what he does with enough information on a blind test(s) to see how bad off he really is...

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06-26-2013, 03:43 PM
  #113
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Originally Posted by KoekkoekPuffs View Post


Thanks for your support here, but he did in fact post it. He got 205, which of course must prove his magical system to be true since it's not like he could make that number up or anything.
Happy to support but re-read his posts in order-- He posted Dat's score AFTER asked about it and saying it would be a good idea to make. He clearly had NOT done it before declaring his system a success based on testing it on established players.

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06-26-2013, 03:44 PM
  #114
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Originally Posted by AmericanDream View Post
how can you search out for all that info?

some of the info he needs isnt really common place stuff, it would have to be info that a poster would have because they really followed a player closely... birth day and time, injuries, etc..

I agree he "could" search and find the name, but maybe try to find lesser known prospects/NHLers/busts and go from there..we have seen how he ranks Crosby and Jones so we have the high to very high end numbers...I am sure some poster can put together some info, leave out the name (but PM another poster the name so we know it is accurate) and lets see what he can do with it...

I dont buy any of it but I am enjoying the read...I am interested to see what he does with enough information on a blind test(s) to see how bad off he really is...
Can't you search for players born on a specific date on hockeyreference or a similar site?

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06-26-2013, 03:46 PM
  #115
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Originally Posted by NobodyBeatsTheWiz View Post
Can't you search for players born on a specific date on hockeyreference or a similar site?
hahaha I have no idea...

if that is the case hopefully pick a day that has multiple players born!!

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06-26-2013, 03:55 PM
  #116
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Originally Posted by AmericanDream View Post
hahaha I have no idea...

if that is the case hopefully pick a day that has multiple players born!!
Just found it.

http://www.hockey-reference.com/friv/birthdays.cgi

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06-26-2013, 03:56 PM
  #117
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Originally Posted by NobodyBeatsTheWiz View Post
Can't you search for players born on a specific date on hockeyreference or a similar site?
He's not asking for just the date hes looking for times as far as birth's go. The other info he's looking for is hard to find as well. Specific dates of injuries or their first game in the minor leagues or anything like that its not easy to find. hockeydb will tell you what stats they put up that year, not when he scored his first goal, when he got injured for the first time, or anything like that. Hell its hard as hell just to find out when their first game was played.

Do me a favor go try and pull some of that information up on alexandre Daigle

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06-26-2013, 03:57 PM
  #118
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Is anyone else intruiged by the fact that Roy and Lemieux were born on the same day?

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06-26-2013, 03:58 PM
  #119
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Originally Posted by PALE PWNR View Post
He's not asking for just the date hes looking for times as far as birth's go. The other info he's looking for is hard to find as well. Specific dates of injuries or their first game in the minor leagues or anything like that its not easy to find. hockeydb will tell you what stats they put up that year, not when he scored his first goal, when he got injured for the first time, or anything like that. Hell its hard as hell just to find out when their first game was played.

Do me a favor go try and pull some of that information up on alexandre Daigle
Does OP claim to have this information? Does he even claim to use this information?

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06-26-2013, 03:59 PM
  #120
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Is anyone else intruiged by the fact that Roy and Lemieux were born on the same day?
So were Jarome Iginla and Martin Spanhel. As were Alex Ovechkin and Mason Raymond.

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06-26-2013, 04:05 PM
  #121
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Originally Posted by NobodyBeatsTheWiz View Post
Does OP claim to have this information? Does he even claim to use this information?
His original post:"The birth time is the most important info, but I can rectify it more or less correctly based on major dates in life of the player, transfers, major injuries, sticking out personality traits, absolutely everything".

Ask the OP: what is the time of birth for Barkov? what is the time of birth for Drouin?If you have it, post it with source. You don't.

Because if he "rectified" it you can find the same amount of info on half the players in the draft as you can for the top 5.... and yet he hasn't done it. And claims he can't.

What's crazy is his system is based on irrelevant/useless info. What's offensive is he doesn't even have that useless info.

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06-26-2013, 04:09 PM
  #122
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Originally Posted by NobodyBeatsTheWiz View Post
Does OP claim to have this information? Does he even claim to use this information?
The 3rd and 4th sentence's in the OP are;

Quote:
So I need more info about prospects in this draft, every little bit will help.The birth time is the most important info, but I can rectify it more or less correctly based on major dates in life of the player, transfers, major injuries, sticking out personality traits, absolutely everything.
The 5th sentence is;

Quote:
I made research on prospects available for this year draft, but only on projected to go high, because info about them is easier to find.
So yes he obviously does use it, and no he doesn't have it which is why he is asking for it and why he only did 5 in the draft that he could find that information for.

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06-26-2013, 04:11 PM
  #123
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Quote:
Originally Posted by PALE PWNR View Post
The 3rd and 4th sentence's in the OP are;



The 5th sentence is;



So yes he obviously does use it, and no he doesn't have it which is why he is asking for it and why he only did 5 in the draft that he could find that information for.
I would like to add that rectification is not a perfect science but it is a well-tested element of astrology from what I understand.

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06-26-2013, 04:18 PM
  #124
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This is very interesting. I have a family friend who is into astrology and making predictions. He does it based on the birth time (to the minute) and the birth location. He made some very accurate predictions about me as well as my brother.

Have you tried your formula/process with players that are already stars in the league and with players previously taken in the first round but are now labeled as busts?

For example, maybe Rick DiPietro?
September 19, 1981 (age 31)
Winthrop, MA, USA

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06-26-2013, 04:24 PM
  #125
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Originally Posted by PALE PWNR View Post
The 3rd and 4th sentence's in the OP are;



The 5th sentence is;



So yes he obviously does use it, and no he doesn't have it which is why he is asking for it and why he only did 5 in the draft that he could find that information for.
He apparently uses 'absolutely everything'.

I'd like access to his seemingly infinite database of prospect information.

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