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Oilers and Gagner working on extension: [UPD: Elected Arbitration]

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06-24-2013, 04:59 PM
  #376
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Originally Posted by smackdaddy View Post
Someone talked about him flaming out the last part of the season, well who didn't.
Taylor Hall and Nail Yakupov. Oddly enough they were his linemates down the stretch.

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06-24-2013, 05:03 PM
  #377
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I hope the Oilers don't give-in and give him $4.5M+ If he's expecting that much, I'd rather trade him.

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06-24-2013, 05:08 PM
  #378
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Originally Posted by smackdaddy View Post
Why are you all surprised? We knew he was looking for $5M/year. If you expected him to take $4.5M you are dreaming, especially after the year he had. Someone talked about him flaming out the last part of the season, well who didn't. We were in a playoff spot and lost something like 10 out of 11.

I'm not saying we pay this guy huge, but he's earned his pay. This smells like Smyth all over again, saying $5M is Sooo expensive. It's a 500k difference between sweet spot and overpaid? We're talking 0.8% of the cap here in difference.

Pay the man. Enough with the penny pinching BS. If we've made the decision that he's a part of the core going forward then we live and die by that. If not, trade his rights. If you think we can find a 2C this year in FA or trade that's worth less in cap space and assets than what we have right now then why is it even a question? The reason is we have no options, and he knows it.

$5M is what he'll likely get over 4 years.
$5.5M if he pushes for it, but likely only 2-3 years. And that type of deal will likely sour the relationship between both parties.
I don't mind paying a player if he's earned it and he's a fit with our team going forward. I just don't feel it's smart to invest that much money into a player, who I don't believe will be a fit with our team going forward.

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06-24-2013, 05:14 PM
  #379
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Originally Posted by AlbertaHockey20 View Post
Taylor Hall and Nail Yakupov. Oddly enough they were his linemates down the stretch.
Not excusing anyone for that stretch. But I think he's earned a permanent spot in Edmonton.

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06-24-2013, 05:16 PM
  #380
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I'm all in favor of several options before signing Sam to a multi year deal.

Drafting a center in the first round and playing him on the second line.

Trading a decent piece for a veteran C who can play a well-rounded game.

Signing a free agent C for a shorter term and good money. No problem there.

Audition some leftover FA centers at training camp.

It's not Gagner's 38 points in 48 games that needs to be replaced. He's a point leech. We need the all-around upgrade on our one-dimensional poster boy for trying hard and being utterly outmatched.

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06-24-2013, 05:16 PM
  #381
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If we hope and pray, could we see Gagner sign for something around 7 years, 4M cap hit where the money goes up in the middle of the deal in the 5's?

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06-24-2013, 05:17 PM
  #382
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Originally Posted by Nailor Hopberle View Post
I don't mind paying a player if he's earned it and he's a fit with our team going forward. I just don't feel it's smart to invest that much money into a player, who I don't believe will be a fit with our team going forward.
Then that's the real question, not whether it's $4.5 or $5. If he's not a good fit anymore then even $3M/year is too much.

MacT will make the judgement call on that for both now and in the future. I personally feel he'll do okay here with decent wingers flanking him. We still have the 3C to size up with (Nik Antropov please).

He works hard, he's a prototypical Oilers from the late 90's/early 00's. We need more players with his work ethic, not less. And I don't think we can afford to cast him off because of an inch or two here, pound or two there.

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06-24-2013, 05:18 PM
  #383
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Originally Posted by Nailor Hopberle View Post
I don't mind paying a player if he's earned it and he's a fit with our team going forward. I just don't feel it's smart to invest that much money into a player, who I don't believe will be a fit with our team going forward.
That's well and good, but it's not like the Oilers are in a position of strength here to be dicking him around.

Say you trade him for some Dmen help (If you trade him for another center, who's to say you're going to get anyone better than him?)...what happens if RNH's shoulder doesn't recover well enough to start the year? Who exactly are we going to have to play with our plethora of wingers?

I'm not saying they should totally capitulate, but if the tipping point is <250k/yr is that really a hill that's worth dying on at this time?

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06-24-2013, 05:22 PM
  #384
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Sign him or trade him but he is exactly the player we are looking for right now, he's just a couple years away from being an elite #2C.

Given Hopkins is likely a few years away from being a legit #1 C if he does at all, and given Horcoff is on the outs, I really cannot see Gagner being traded. I would only expect that if another C moves up the ladder or a guy like Hall moves to C.

If Hall goes to C successfully, then I would say moving Gagner for a high quality Prime aged Dman would be a good idea.

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06-24-2013, 05:24 PM
  #385
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Originally Posted by Digger12 View Post
That's well and good, but it's not like the Oilers are in a position of strength here to be dicking him around.

Say you trade him for some Dmen help (If you trade him for another center, who's to say you're going to get anyone better than him?)...what happens if RNH's shoulder doesn't recover well enough to start the year? Who exactly are we going to have to play with our plethora of wingers?

I'm not saying they should totally capitulate, but if the tipping point is <250k/yr is that really a hill that's worth dying on at this time?
Exactly, lets move some of our winger depth for proper 3rd and 4th line C's who can win draws. OR, sign the guys in question and trade away some of our excess depth for some mid and late round picks if possible.

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06-24-2013, 05:30 PM
  #386
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Originally Posted by gqmixmaster View Post
Sign him or trade him but he is exactly the player we are looking for right now, he's just a couple years away from being an elite #2C.

Given Hopkins is likely a few years away from being a legit #1 C if he does at all, and given Horcoff is on the outs, I really cannot see Gagner being traded. I would only expect that if another C moves up the ladder or a guy like Hall moves to C.

If Hall goes to C successfully, then I would say moving Gagner for a high quality Prime aged Dman would be a good idea.

Don't you think having two smallish centers in your top two lines that can't win faceffs isn't a good idea? If, like you said Gagner can be traded for a high quality Dman then I think we do it. We would need to find a replacement someone with size and faceoff abilties. If this was the case then I think we could roll with Paajarvi and Yakupov as the wingers.

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06-24-2013, 05:30 PM
  #387
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Originally Posted by smackdaddy View Post
Then that's the real question, not whether it's $4.5 or $5. If he's not a good fit anymore then even $3M/year is too much.
Disagree, if we could keep his cap to a low level, it gives us the resources to bring in other players that do fit our needs more so.


Quote:
He works hard, he's a prototypical Oilers from the late 90's/early 00's. We need more players with his work ethic, not less. And I don't think we can afford to cast him off because of an inch or two here, pound or two there.
I like Gagner, but if we have a team of players like him, we'll be losing battles along the boards every game. No doubt Gagner gives it his all, but he's the prototypical soft, skilled player that we've had a bunch of over the past few years.

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06-24-2013, 06:35 PM
  #388
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Originally Posted by Tailens View Post
Don't you think having two smallish centers in your top two lines that can't win faceffs isn't a good idea? If, like you said Gagner can be traded for a high quality Dman then I think we do it. We would need to find a replacement someone with size and faceoff abilties. If this was the case then I think we could roll with Paajarvi and Yakupov as the wingers.
I think RNH's faceoff ability will improve, and hopefully he works on it once he gets a proper off season to train.

I also think RNH/Gagner could centre a great top 6, but the key is to have a really solid #3 centering a reliable checking line. We don't have that yet, and we also don't have any top 6 wingers with the size and physicality to complement RNH and Gagner, so that's another priority. If we could add those two pieces, I'd be quite happy with RNH/Gagner long term.

A - RNH - Eberle
Hall - Gagner - Yakupov
MPS - B - C

Where A, B and C are larger, physical 2 way types. Could do a lot worse than that. The second line would play sheltered scoring minutes and rack up the big points while the third line takes the defensive zone starts.

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06-24-2013, 06:59 PM
  #389
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If Gagner gets closer to 5 then so be it. I am not willing to lose a young top 6 C over 500K. Better teams than us are willing to give him a shot in their top 6. I think we should too. He's 23 and already has 258p in the NHL. If he improves even a little bit he could flirt with a 1000p career.

Just a thought, but what if he turned down the 4.5 deal because he wants to make sure he stays here. From a lot of reports, Gagner likes playing in Edmonton and doesn't want to move. Maybe he's after a NMC and takes a bit less to get one?

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06-24-2013, 07:11 PM
  #390
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Originally Posted by Digger12 View Post
That's well and good, but it's not like the Oilers are in a position of strength here to be dicking him around.

Say you trade him for some Dmen help (If you trade him for another center, who's to say you're going to get anyone better than him?)...what happens if RNH's shoulder doesn't recover well enough to start the year? Who exactly are we going to have to play with our plethora of wingers?

I'm not saying they should totally capitulate, but if the tipping point is <250k/yr is that really a hill that's worth dying on at this time?


Ryan Smyth meant a helluva lot more to the team than Gagner does.

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06-24-2013, 07:14 PM
  #391
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Correct and that's why we signed Smyth through two ugly negotiations before trading him during the third.

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06-24-2013, 07:21 PM
  #392
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Ryan Smyth meant a helluva lot more to the team than Gagner does.
True, unfortunately his "best before date" expired 05/14/ 2009 and we're still milking him

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06-24-2013, 07:28 PM
  #393
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My guess is if he signs a 4 yr deal it will be 4.5, 5.25, 5.5, 5.5 (20.75)

And worth every penny, the man is shawn freakin horcoff with offensive ability and his last name is all WIN.
He has never been nearly as strong, fast, or as good defensively or on draws as Horcoff was, not even close. He is nothing like Horcoff in a good and bad sense.

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Originally Posted by Psycho Dad View Post
He was already flaming out spectacularly as last season wound down. He wasn't going to hit 60 points.

Lowetide and friends are guessing $5.2/year and folks are lining up to tweet "pay the man".

It might be time for me to grab an Eastern team to cheer for if 1-D here gets more than $5M/year. No way that any respectable team would give their 1-D 2C that.
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I'm all in favor of several options before signing Sam to a multi year deal.

Drafting a center in the first round and playing him on the second line.

Trading a decent piece for a veteran C who can play a well-rounded game.

Signing a free agent C for a shorter term and good money. No problem there.

Audition some leftover FA centers at training camp.

It's not Gagner's 38 points in 48 games that needs to be replaced. He's a point leech. We need the all-around upgrade on our one-dimensional poster boy for trying hard and being utterly outmatched.
Damn, I never expected to read this from you TBH. That said I couldn't agree more.

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Originally Posted by s7ark View Post
If Gagner gets closer to 5 then so be it. I am not willing to lose a young top 6 C over 500K. Better teams than us are willing to give him a shot in their top 6. I think we should too. He's 23 and already has 258p in the NHL. If he improves even a little bit he could flirt with a 1000p career.

Just a thought, but what if he turned down the 4.5 deal because he wants to make sure he stays here. From a lot of reports, Gagner likes playing in Edmonton and doesn't want to move. Maybe he's after a NMC and takes a bit less to get one?
Sorry s7ark but I would care, that would mean that IMO at least he's overpaid by $1 million/season and that's assuming that his offense doesn't stumble a bit next season. It would also all but make him untradeable and we might well be looking at Horcoff 2.0 before long.

Why should he get paid like a guy like Mike Ribeiro? Yes Gagner is younger but he'll be lucky to match Ribeiro's top seasons or even his production next year or the year after. I'm sorry but anything over $4.5 million is a major fail by management here and if Gagner wants more than that then he is for all intents and purposes punching his ticket out of here unless MacT wants him to be his Horcoff.

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06-24-2013, 07:36 PM
  #394
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Originally Posted by Digger12 View Post
That's well and good, but it's not like the Oilers are in a position of strength here to be dicking him around.

Say you trade him for some Dmen help (If you trade him for another center, who's to say you're going to get anyone better than him?)...what happens if RNH's shoulder doesn't recover well enough to start the year? Who exactly are we going to have to play with our plethora of wingers?

I'm not saying they should totally capitulate, but if the tipping point is <250k/yr is that really a hill that's worth dying on at this time?
We are not in a position to make his a boat anchor contract either. RNH might be out for awhile but the good thing is that it'll be an 82 game season next season so even if he misses 5-10 games we can try to make some of it up when he returns. We may try to either trade up to grab an NHL ready center at the draft or make a trade for a guy like Johansen, Couturier or Schenn. IMO management is fully aware of the situation and we won't start next season with center depth of Arcobello, Lander, Vande Velde, and House regardless of what we do with Gagner. IMO you don't bend to Gagner's demands period, he is not worth what he will be getting paid, and if we have to overpay at UFA prices then we may as well go after some UFA's that are worth getting who will also be a better fit going forward.

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06-24-2013, 07:46 PM
  #395
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As you see in my past posts I am not a Gagner fan, but the way the team is shaping up we need him to play 2C for now. The deal we need him to sign must be tradeable. I would suggest 4 years (5.5+5.5+4.25+4.25)

So Basically 4 years 19.5 which is 4.875 Mil Over pay yes but his last 2 years would be highly tradeable. I would also give him a limited NTC. Submit list of 29 teams you are will to go to.

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06-24-2013, 07:48 PM
  #396
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We are not in a position to make his a boat anchor contract either. RNH might be out for awhile but the good thing is that it'll be an 82 game season next season so even if he misses 5-10 games we can try to make some of it up when he returns. We may try to either trade up to grab an NHL ready center at the draft or make a trade for a guy like Johansen, Couturier or Schenn. IMO management is fully aware of the situation and we won't start next season with center depth of Arcobello, Lander, Vande Velde, and House regardless of what we do with Gagner. IMO you don't bend to Gagner's demands period, he is not worth what he will be getting paid, and if we have to overpay at UFA prices then we may as well go after some UFA's that are worth getting who will also be a better fit going forward.
What UFA center is worth getting?

And you talk about getting one of Johansen, Couturier or Schenn... as what? A replacement for Gagner?

Schenn was the best last year with 26 points in 48 games and -8
Johansen had 12 and was -7
Couturier had 15 points and was -8

Not one of these guys were comparable to Gagner this past season and none of them are ready to take on his role on the team.

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06-24-2013, 08:02 PM
  #397
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What UFA center is worth getting?

And you talk about getting one of Johansen, Couturier or Schenn... as what? A replacement for Gagner?

Schenn was the best last year with 26 points in 48 games and -8
Johansen had 12 and was -7
Couturier had 15 points and was -8

Not one of these guys were comparable to Gagner this past season and none of them are ready to take on his role on the team.
I'd take any of them, and I'd watch them flourish in his role. Second line center is not rocket science, especially playing with talented wingers that only need you to backcheck (OH NO, GAGS!) and get them the puck in flight.

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06-24-2013, 08:06 PM
  #398
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I'd take any of them, and I'd watch them flourish in his role. Second line center is not rocket science, especially playing with talented wingers that only need you to backcheck (OH NO, GAGS!) and get them the puck in flight.
Not one of them are as good as Gagner is now or as good as he was at their same age.

They were all drafted right around the same spot Gagner was and have shown nothing in their career since being drafted to suggest they are better than Gagner or will be better than Gagner.

Ryan ****ing Johansen is a season away from being Gilbert Brule. The grass isn't always greener on the other side.

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06-24-2013, 08:12 PM
  #399
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What UFA center is worth getting?

And you talk about getting one of Johansen, Couturier or Schenn... as what? A replacement for Gagner?

Schenn was the best last year with 26 points in 48 games and -8
Johansen had 12 and was -7
Couturier had 15 points and was -8

Not one of these guys were comparable to Gagner this past season and none of them are ready to take on his role on the team.
All 3 of them have size and strength on Gagner, all 3 of them are more physical than Gagner, and all 3 of them have some hands as well. I would take any one of them over Gagner when it comes to facing big centers on other teams. I would be on board with acquiring a player like those 3 and then also acquiring a Peverley/Vermette type as an insurance policy.

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Not one of them are as good as Gagner is now or as good as he was at their same age.

They were all drafted right around the same spot Gagner was and have shown nothing in their career since being drafted to suggest they are better than Gagner or will be better than Gagner.

Ryan ****ing Johansen is a season away from being Gilbert Brule. The grass isn't always greener on the other side.
If good only considers offensive production then I agree. My definition of good is a bit broader than that.

Also Johansen is not a bust he wouldn't be the first players that wasn't established as an NHL star 3 years out of the draft that ended up having a great career. Just because Gagner came in at 18 and he still has many of the same issues as he did then doesn't mean that he's better than they are.

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06-24-2013, 08:21 PM
  #400
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All 3 of them have size and strength on Gagner, all 3 of them are more physical than Gagner, and all 3 of them have some hands as well. I would take any one of them over Gagner when it comes to facing big centers on other teams. I would be on board with acquiring a player like those 3 and then also acquiring a Peverley/Vermette type as an insurance policy.



If good only considers offensive production then I agree. My definition of good is a bit broader than that.

Also Johansen is not a bust he wouldn't be the first players that wasn't established as an NHL star 3 years out of the draft that ended up having a great career. Just because Gagner came in at 18 and he still has many of the same issues as he did then doesn't mean that he's better than they are.
Johansen is much closer to being a bust than he is to having a great career.

All these guys have on Gagner right now is being bigger. Jesus, when are we going to stop thinking that adding unproven players is going to ever make us better? Schenn... Couturier... Johansen? Come on. Those guys are not top 2 line players.

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