HFBoards

Go Back   HFBoards > NHL Western Conference > Pacific Division > Edmonton Oilers
Mobile Hockey's Future Become a Sponsor Site Rules Support Forum vBookie Page 2
Notices

Oilers and Gagner working on extension: [UPD: Elected Arbitration]

Closed Thread
 
Thread Tools
Old
06-24-2013, 08:34 PM
  #401
hockeyaddict101
Registered User
 
hockeyaddict101's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2002
Posts: 19,903
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Groucho View Post
Prepare to be disappointed when its more along the lines of 4 years at 5.
That is what I think it will be. Gagner has all the leverage.

hockeyaddict101 is offline  
Old
06-24-2013, 08:38 PM
  #402
Bryanbryoil
Moderator
I Know A Thing Or 6
 
Bryanbryoil's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2004
Location: About Winning
Posts: 50,807
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Spawn View Post
Johansen is much closer to being a bust than he is to having a great career.

All these guys have on Gagner right now is being bigger. Jesus, when are we going to stop thinking that adding unproven players is going to ever make us better? Schenn... Couturier... Johansen? Come on. Those guys are not top 2 line players.
Gagner is a top 2 line center in offense alone.

Last season:

Gagner
ES: 48gp. 10-11-21 714:32 ES Point every 34 minutes

Schenn
ES: 47gp. 6-10-16 614:26 ES point every 38.4 minutes

Couturier
ES: 46gp. 4-7-11 546:09 ES point every 49.6 minutes

Johansen
ES: 5-6-11 546:41 ES point every 49.7 minutes

I'm pretty sure neither Flyer or Johansen got to play with a guy like Yakupov, Eberle, or Hall very often last season. Bigger players are notorious for taking longer to develop than their smaller counter parts. Also of note Johansen and Schenn were better on draws than Gagner and Couturier had the same %.

__________________
Treat Others As You Would Like To Be Treated
Bryanbryoil is offline  
Old
06-24-2013, 08:43 PM
  #403
Spawn
Registered User
 
Spawn's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2006
Location: Edmonton
Country: Canada
Posts: 23,424
vCash: 500
Also, for everyone who says that Gagner has not improved. Keep this in mind.

He went from a career 0.60 ppg to 0.79 this season.

He was the 17th highest scoring centerman in the league. 8th in the western conference.

He also was utilized on the PK for the first time this year and statistically was the most successful PKer on the team.

Now yes, he had his struggles defensively 5v5 at ES, but part of that was spending a vast amount of his season playing with Nail Yakupov and Ales Hemsky. One who was a rookie who was lost for the first 35 or so games defensively and the other was a guy who looks like he maybe has given up on the team.

He's a 23 year old who went from producing at a 50 point pace to producing at a 65 point pace and he has started to kill penalties.

And we have people who say they've had enough of Gagner and would rather have a 20 point wonder like Ryan Johansen in his place Blows my mind how the perception of certain players can prevail regardless of how they actually play/produce.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Bryanbryoil View Post
Gagner is a top 2 line center in offense alone.
And those three aren't top 6 in anything.

Spawn is offline  
Old
06-24-2013, 08:44 PM
  #404
Samwise Gagner
We suck.
 
Samwise Gagner's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2013
Country: Canada
Posts: 1,104
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by hockeyaddict101 View Post
That is what I think it will be. Gagner has all the leverage.
He sure does.
Watch this contract be Tambo's biggest impact on the team. To be fair not many predicted Gags to have the break out year that he did, but he really dropped the ball by not locking him up at a reasonable term last year. Probably could've had him at 5x4 Mill easily.

Samwise Gagner is offline  
Old
06-24-2013, 08:49 PM
  #405
dnicks17
Moderator
.
 
dnicks17's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2010
Location: Ontario
Country: Canada
Posts: 15,700
vCash: 500
Put an asterisk beside that 0.79 PPG.

It was a shortened season. And he was coming back to earth pretty quickly in the second half of it.

dnicks17 is offline  
Old
06-24-2013, 08:53 PM
  #406
Bryanbryoil
Moderator
I Know A Thing Or 6
 
Bryanbryoil's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2004
Location: About Winning
Posts: 50,807
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Spawn View Post
Also, for everyone who says that Gagner has not improved. Keep this in mind.

He went from a career 0.60 ppg to 0.79 this season.

He was the 17th highest scoring centerman in the league. 8th in the western conference.

He also was utilized on the PK for the first time this year and statistically was the most successful PKer on the team.

Now yes, he had his struggles defensively 5v5 at ES, but part of that was spending a vast amount of his season playing with Nail Yakupov and Ales Hemsky. One who was a rookie who was lost for the first 35 or so games defensively and the other was a guy who looks like he maybe has given up on the team.

He's a 23 year old who went from producing at a 50 point pace to producing at a 65 point pace and he has started to kill penalties.

And we have people who say they've had enough of Gagner and would rather have a 20 point wonder like Ryan Johansen in his place Blows my mind how the perception of certain players can prevail regardless of how they actually play/produce.
Need I remind you that this season was a whopping 48 games or 58.5% of a normal season? Need I also remind you of how he finished the season? Need I also remind you that he had a similar streak in '11-12 where he went for 34 points in 38 games between December and January? There is no way of telling if he would've bounced back or if he would've reverted to his historical PPG margin had he played even 70 games. His faceoff % dropped as did his +/-.

Johansen may not be a favorite of yours but he has a lot going for him and I guess you skimmed over the Peverley/Vermette part conveniently? I know which of these players I'd want to have on my side in the postseason and Gagner isn't one of them.

Bryanbryoil is offline  
Old
06-24-2013, 08:54 PM
  #407
Spawn
Registered User
 
Spawn's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2006
Location: Edmonton
Country: Canada
Posts: 23,424
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by dnicks17 View Post
Put an asterisk beside that 0.79 PPG.

It was a shortened season. And he was coming back to earth pretty quickly in the second half of it.
Than put an asterisk next to anyones season and no ones production is worth anything.

Spawn is offline  
Old
06-24-2013, 08:55 PM
  #408
Bryanbryoil
Moderator
I Know A Thing Or 6
 
Bryanbryoil's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2004
Location: About Winning
Posts: 50,807
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Spawn View Post
Also, for everyone who says that Gagner has not improved. Keep this in mind.

He went from a career 0.60 ppg to 0.79 this season.

He was the 17th highest scoring centerman in the league. 8th in the western conference.

He also was utilized on the PK for the first time this year and statistically was the most successful PKer on the team.

Now yes, he had his struggles defensively 5v5 at ES, but part of that was spending a vast amount of his season playing with Nail Yakupov and Ales Hemsky. One who was a rookie who was lost for the first 35 or so games defensively and the other was a guy who looks like he maybe has given up on the team.

He's a 23 year old who went from producing at a 50 point pace to producing at a 65 point pace and he has started to kill penalties.

And we have people who say they've had enough of Gagner and would rather have a 20 point wonder like Ryan Johansen in his place Blows my mind how the perception of certain players can prevail regardless of how they actually play/produce.



And those three aren't top 6 in anything.
So you'd like to go on record right now and say that none of them will be top 6 players in the NHL next year or beyond?

Bryanbryoil is offline  
Old
06-24-2013, 08:56 PM
  #409
Bryanbryoil
Moderator
I Know A Thing Or 6
 
Bryanbryoil's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2004
Location: About Winning
Posts: 50,807
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Spawn View Post
Than put an asterisk next to anyones season and no ones production is worth anything.
Difference being we've seen this same song and dance from Gagner before, he's either producing like gangbusters or he is producing next to nothing offensively and still playing poor defensively.

Bryanbryoil is offline  
Old
06-24-2013, 08:56 PM
  #410
Spawn
Registered User
 
Spawn's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2006
Location: Edmonton
Country: Canada
Posts: 23,424
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bryanbryoil View Post
Need I remind you that this season was a whopping 48 games or 58.5% of a normal season? Need I also remind you of how he finished the season? Need I also remind you that he had a similar streak in '11-12 where he went for 34 points in 38 games between December and January? There is no way of telling if he would've bounced back or if he would've reverted to his historical PPG margin had he played even 70 games. His faceoff % dropped as did his +/-.

Johansen may not be a favorite of yours but he has a lot going for him and I guess you skimmed over the Peverley/Vermette part conveniently? I know which of these players I'd want to have on my side in the postseason and Gagner isn't one of them.
Ryan Johansen was a healthy scratch in the playoffs this year. IN THE AHL.

I'm not skimming over adding Peverley/Vermette. I'm 100% behind that. Would be a very astute move. I would just like it in addition to retaining Gagner.

Spawn is offline  
Old
06-24-2013, 08:57 PM
  #411
smackdaddy
Hall-RNH-Eberle
 
smackdaddy's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2006
Location: B.C.
Country: Canada
Posts: 8,777
vCash: 500
Just a bunch of "grass is greener" syndrome in this thread. I echo Spawn's sentiments about giving up on Gagner because he's a pound light and an inch short and .5M overpaid. Again, we're gonna replace him with who? Is there a 2C banging on MacT's door or something that I'm not aware of? Or is it more big risks for a reward that will get us to where we are now IF we're lucky?

smackdaddy is offline  
Old
06-24-2013, 08:58 PM
  #412
dnicks17
Moderator
.
 
dnicks17's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2010
Location: Ontario
Country: Canada
Posts: 15,700
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Spawn View Post
Than put an asterisk next to anyones season and no ones production is worth anything.
For the shortened season? Sure, I agree.

It should really be looked at on it's own and not be compared to 82 game seasons.

dnicks17 is offline  
Old
06-24-2013, 08:59 PM
  #413
Bryanbryoil
Moderator
I Know A Thing Or 6
 
Bryanbryoil's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2004
Location: About Winning
Posts: 50,807
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Spawn View Post
Ryan Johansen was a healthy scratch in the playoffs this year. IN THE AHL.

I'm not skimming over adding Peverley/Vermette. I'm 100% behind that. Would be a very astute move. I would just like it in addition to retaining Gagner.
That's all well and good, we don't know the particulars there, I know that I saw him IN THE NHL and he looked like a player that we could use with a lot of untapped talent.

Agreed on Peverley/Vermette regardless of what we do unless we are adding a Schenn and Smith, we should go out and get that type of a player.

Bryanbryoil is offline  
Old
06-24-2013, 09:00 PM
  #414
Baggers
Registered User
 
Baggers's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2006
Country: Thailand
Posts: 1,527
vCash: 500
Re: RNH and Gagner being too small down the middle.

RNH was the same size and had a similar frame as Bergeron when they were drafted. JMO, but to me RNH tracks as Bergeron with more offensive ability (which is a pretty awesome player). Nobody in hockey would even begin to suggest that Bergeron is soft.

Gagner is similar to Krejci. Krejci has more offensive skill and is a better player, but Gagner is much younger and grittier.

RNH and Gagner can be an elite center tandem as long as they are surrounded by strong wingers (which Yakupov, Hall, and Paajarvi all project to be) and are backed up by strong, defensively responsible 3rd/4th line Cs (missing at this point).

If the team gets Gagner at 4, it's a steal. If it's 4.5, it's a good deal. If it's 5, it's an overpay, but one I would be willing to make if I were GM of the Oilers.

Baggers is offline  
Old
06-24-2013, 09:01 PM
  #415
CupofOil
Registered User
 
CupofOil's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2009
Location: Rock Bottom
Country: United States
Posts: 13,710
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Spawn View Post
What UFA center is worth getting?

And you talk about getting one of Johansen, Couturier or Schenn... as what? A replacement for Gagner?

Schenn was the best last year with 26 points in 48 games and -8
Johansen had 12 and was -7
Couturier had 15 points and was -8

Not one of these guys were comparable to Gagner this past season and none of them are ready to take on his role on the team.
Sure, if you only value offense and not players that can play both ends of the ice, win puck battles and not back down to bigger players physically.
Couturier for instance was busy shutting down the likes of Malkin in the playoffs while Gagner was struggling to get to the 50 point range (which he still hasn't reached after 5 pro seasons). Schenn took a big leap in his development this season with a more prominent role and he hits a lot.
The entire Flyers team stunk this season so i wouldn't look at the +/- stat as gospel. Their defense was arguably worse than the Oilers this season and their goaltending was certainly worse so that skews the +/- stat.


If you look solely at points and +/- as opposed to the overall value of the player then i can see why you would take Gagner but if you look at the value of these players to a team like the Oilers that gets physically dominated on a regular basis and already has tons of high skilled talent then it's a no brainer to want Schenn or Couturier over Gagner. Quite simply, these guys give the Oilers a better chance to compete against the big boys not only short term but long term as well and blend in perfectly with the surrounding skill.
Also, keep in mind the roles that these guys have when it comes to just looking at point totals. Gagner has always gotten spoonfed tons of PP time and in the last couple of seasons has had some elite talent to work with on the PP while Couturier is put in a shut down role with minimal PP time and playing with 3rd liners this past season.
Ryan Johansen i'm not nearly as sold on. He's a good tier below the rest of these players now. I wouldn't take him over Gagner even, too risky. He has some potential but i personally have always been underwhelmed by him.


Last edited by CupofOil: 06-24-2013 at 09:07 PM.
CupofOil is offline  
Old
06-24-2013, 09:04 PM
  #416
Spawn
Registered User
 
Spawn's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2006
Location: Edmonton
Country: Canada
Posts: 23,424
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bryanbryoil View Post
So you'd like to go on record right now and say that none of them will be top 6 players in the NHL next year or beyond?
No, I'd like to go on record saying that none of them were top 6 players this past season, and none of them are as good as Gagner now, and have not been as good as Gagner was at any point in his career.

Maybe they will be! (Well not Ryan Johansen, that guy is a bust through and through and I'm just plain sick of hearing about him). I can't predict the future. I am a huge Sean Couturier fan and I would absolutely LOVE to pick him up and he very well may end up being an elite two way force down the middle who puts up 60-70 points. The same could be said for Schenn. But they aren't there yet, and honestly don't seem all that close to getting there.

But what we need to stop doing is bringing in guys, putting them in important roles and just banking on them being able to succeed there. It would be a very astute move for the Oilers to upgrade on Sam Gagner. The problem is that unless you have an actual upgrade in place for him this team will just continue to spin its wheels.

I am 100% behind upgrading on Sam Gagner. One hundred ****ing percent. But replacing him with a player who might end up being an upgrade is a sure fire way to keep us in the basement. If we are getting rid of Sam Gagner we NEED to bring in someone who is better right now.

Spawn is offline  
Old
06-24-2013, 09:04 PM
  #417
dnicks17
Moderator
.
 
dnicks17's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2010
Location: Ontario
Country: Canada
Posts: 15,700
vCash: 500
Krejci is stronger on his skates, better at winning puck battles and much better on the face-off dot.

If Gagner had those qualities, there wouldn't be near as many people unhappy with Gagner as the #2C.

dnicks17 is offline  
Old
06-24-2013, 09:06 PM
  #418
Psycho Dad
Oil Kings
 
Psycho Dad's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2007
Location: Sherwood Park
Posts: 10,433
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Spawn View Post
I'm not skimming over adding Peverley/Vermette. I'm 100% behind that. Would be a very astute move. I would just like it in addition to retaining Gagner.
MacT has said that he wants Gagner on the win this year. So with RNH delayed, Horcoff getting the golden handshake, and Belanger unlikely to return, I think MacT must have three centers coming in. Not that the grass is always greener, but it'll be nice to have some new sod instead of all these dog piss dead patches.

Psycho Dad is offline  
Old
06-24-2013, 09:11 PM
  #419
Cam98
Registered User
 
Cam98's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2009
Posts: 1,999
vCash: 500
rather trade then re-sign him. i really hope mact does that

Cam98 is offline  
Old
06-24-2013, 09:16 PM
  #420
Baggers
Registered User
 
Baggers's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2006
Country: Thailand
Posts: 1,527
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by dnicks17 View Post
Krejci is stronger on his skates, better at winning puck battles and much better on the face-off dot.

If Gagner had those qualities, there wouldn't be near as many people unhappy with Gagner as the #2C.
He's also 3 years older and plays on a much, much better team. Gagner made a lot of improvements in terms of being strong on his skates - if he improves more in this area, I don't see why he can't be a similar player. Krejci was easily knocked off the puck his first few years in the league.

Baggers is offline  
Old
06-24-2013, 09:20 PM
  #421
Bryanbryoil
Moderator
I Know A Thing Or 6
 
Bryanbryoil's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2004
Location: About Winning
Posts: 50,807
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Spawn View Post
No, I'd like to go on record saying that none of them were top 6 players this past season, and none of them are as good as Gagner now, and have not been as good as Gagner was at any point in his career.

Maybe they will be! (Well not Ryan Johansen, that guy is a bust through and through and I'm just plain sick of hearing about him). I can't predict the future. I am a huge Sean Couturier fan and I would absolutely LOVE to pick him up and he very well may end up being an elite two way force down the middle who puts up 60-70 points. The same could be said for Schenn. But they aren't there yet, and honestly don't seem all that close to getting there.

But what we need to stop doing is bringing in guys, putting them in important roles and just banking on them being able to succeed there. It would be a very astute move for the Oilers to upgrade on Sam Gagner. The problem is that unless you have an actual upgrade in place for him this team will just continue to spin its wheels.

I am 100% behind upgrading on Sam Gagner. One hundred ****ing percent. But replacing him with a player who might end up being an upgrade is a sure fire way to keep us in the basement. If we are getting rid of Sam Gagner we NEED to bring in someone who is better right now.
I see some common ground in here in regards to upgrading the 2C position, however I am in complete disagreement about Johansen and I guess we'll just wait and see how that situation plays out. If we could land a Couturier or Schenn I'd do it, they'd get to play with 1 or 2 of Hall, Eberle, or Nail, that should help their offensive production. I would also take both over Gagner for matching up against the big boys in our new division. And while I'd love to get that surefire upgrade on Gagner, IMO we don't have the pieces to get that player right now so we need to either draft him or get a guy that might be a year or two away and is hopefully a little closer than that.

Bryanbryoil is offline  
Old
06-24-2013, 09:22 PM
  #422
dnicks17
Moderator
.
 
dnicks17's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2010
Location: Ontario
Country: Canada
Posts: 15,700
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Baggers View Post
He's also 3 years older and plays on a much, much better team. Gagner made a lot of improvements in terms of being strong on his skates - if he improves more in this area, I don't see why he can't be a similar player. Krejci was easily knocked off the puck his first few years in the league.
He did improve, but I think he's still got a long way to go to equal Krejci in that regard.

dnicks17 is offline  
Old
06-24-2013, 09:22 PM
  #423
Bryanbryoil
Moderator
I Know A Thing Or 6
 
Bryanbryoil's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2004
Location: About Winning
Posts: 50,807
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Baggers View Post
He's also 3 years older and plays on a much, much better team. Gagner made a lot of improvements in terms of being strong on his skates - if he improves more in this area, I don't see why he can't be a similar player. Krejci was easily knocked off the puck his first few years in the league.
Kreijci has had a 50 point season, 2 60 point seasons and a 70 point season. I'd definitely take Kreijci over Gagner.

Bryanbryoil is offline  
Old
06-24-2013, 10:21 PM
  #424
harpoon
FOB
 
harpoon's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2005
Posts: 4,382
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Heavy Dee View Post
thx dnicks, so 11 in the last 25, playing prime minutes and with our best players?
Was he playing with Hall, Yakupov, RNH and Eberle exclusively for those last twenty five games? Or have I misunderstood your definition of "our best players"?
Quote:
so a 36 ppg pace based on a full season.
Brutal How about we declare him an eighty point player based on his ppg pace over the first twenty eight?
Quote:
not worth anything close to 5 million imo.
Nothing close to $5 million? Is $4.5 close to $5? If he goes to arbitration he will absolutely get something "close to $5 million".

harpoon is offline  
Old
06-24-2013, 10:29 PM
  #425
harpoon
FOB
 
harpoon's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2005
Posts: 4,382
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Spawn View Post
Also, for everyone who says that Gagner has not improved. Keep this in mind.

He went from a career 0.60 ppg to 0.79 this season.

He was the 17th highest scoring centerman in the league. 8th in the western conference.

He also was utilized on the PK for the first time this year and statistically was the most successful PKer on the team.

Now yes, he had his struggles defensively 5v5 at ES, but part of that was spending a vast amount of his season playing with Nail Yakupov and Ales Hemsky. One who was a rookie who was lost for the first 35 or so games defensively and the other was a guy who looks like he maybe has given up on the team.

He's a 23 year old who went from producing at a 50 point pace to producing at a 65 point pace and he has started to kill penalties.

And we have people who say they've had enough of Gagner and would rather have a 20 point wonder like Ryan Johansen in his place Blows my mind how the perception of certain players can prevail regardless of how they actually play/produce.


And those three aren't top 6 in anything.
A beautiful post ....

harpoon is offline  
Closed Thread

Forum Jump


Bookmarks

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off



All times are GMT -5. The time now is 08:15 AM.

monitoring_string = "e4251c93e2ba248d29da988d93bf5144"
Contact Us - HFBoards - Archive - Privacy Statement - Terms of Use - Advertise - Top - AdChoices

vBulletin Copyright ©2000 - 2014, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
HFBoards.com is a property of CraveOnline Media, LLC, an Evolve Media, LLC company. ©2014 All Rights Reserved.