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Oilers and Gagner working on extension: [UPD: Elected Arbitration]

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06-24-2013, 10:44 PM
  #426
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dnicks17 View Post
Put an asterisk beside that 0.79 PPG.

It was a shortened season. And he was coming back to earth pretty quickly in the second half of it.
Shortened season, compressed schedule. Gagner has typically been a strong finisher, I think a lot of players just ran out of gas.

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06-24-2013, 10:45 PM
  #427
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If he becomes a UFA next year i can see him getting 6 mill plus in free agency. Feaster is probably already drooling over the thought of locking him up to a 6.5 mill contract for 7 years with a full NMC. Gagner would be stupid to take less than 5 million for more than a few years when you think about it. If we can get him for 4-5 years at anything under 5 million, good job MacT.

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06-24-2013, 10:56 PM
  #428
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Originally Posted by dnicks17 View Post
Krejci is stronger on his skates, better at winning puck battles and much better on the face-off dot.

If Gagner had those qualities, there wouldn't be near as many people unhappy with Gagner as the #2C.
Of course he's 27, in prime of life, playing on a very good and very big team. So its certainly easier to play big on such a team.

Strangely enough Krejci didn't start to light it up until he was 23. Not sure why you thought that was a good example anyway.

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06-24-2013, 10:57 PM
  #429
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Originally Posted by Spawn View Post
No, I'd like to go on record saying that none of them were top 6 players this past season, and none of them are as good as Gagner now, and have not been as good as Gagner was at any point in his career.

Maybe they will be! (Well not Ryan Johansen, that guy is a bust through and through and I'm just plain sick of hearing about him). I can't predict the future. I am a huge Sean Couturier fan and I would absolutely LOVE to pick him up and he very well may end up being an elite two way force down the middle who puts up 60-70 points. The same could be said for Schenn. But they aren't there yet, and honestly don't seem all that close to getting there.

But what we need to stop doing is bringing in guys, putting them in important roles and just banking on them being able to succeed there. It would be a very astute move for the Oilers to upgrade on Sam Gagner. The problem is that unless you have an actual upgrade in place for him this team will just continue to spin its wheels.

I am 100% behind upgrading on Sam Gagner. One hundred ****ing percent. But replacing him with a player who might end up being an upgrade is a sure fire way to keep us in the basement. If we are getting rid of Sam Gagner we NEED to bring in someone who is better right now.
I rarely even bother anymore but thanks for this.

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06-24-2013, 10:57 PM
  #430
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Originally Posted by Spawn View Post
No, I'd like to go on record saying that none of them were top 6 players this past season, and none of them are as good as Gagner now, and have not been as good as Gagner was at any point in his career.

Maybe they will be! (Well not Ryan Johansen, that guy is a bust through and through and I'm just plain sick of hearing about him). I can't predict the future. I am a huge Sean Couturier fan and I would absolutely LOVE to pick him up and he very well may end up being an elite two way force down the middle who puts up 60-70 points. The same could be said for Schenn. But they aren't there yet, and honestly don't seem all that close to getting there.

But what we need to stop doing is bringing in guys, putting them in important roles and just banking on them being able to succeed there. It would be a very astute move for the Oilers to upgrade on Sam Gagner. The problem is that unless you have an actual upgrade in place for him this team will just continue to spin its wheels.

I am 100% behind upgrading on Sam Gagner. One hundred ****ing percent. But replacing him with a player who might end up being an upgrade is a sure fire way to keep us in the basement. If we are getting rid of Sam Gagner we NEED to bring in someone who is better right now.
Great post!....

Now I'm curious. Would you apply the same logic if we were talking about an unproven macinnon, barkov or monohan, with gags traded for a solid D?

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06-24-2013, 10:59 PM
  #431
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8 pts 1 game

back up the brinks

Nuff said.

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06-24-2013, 11:00 PM
  #432
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Originally Posted by Heavy Dee View Post
I am too lazy to look it up, what did gagner score the last 12-15 games when it mattered most? i seem to recall it wasn't at a great clip and his defense was horrid.
Holy specious sample batman. Could you be anymore obvious at arbitrarily picking sample size?

jebus no agenda here, nosiree.

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06-24-2013, 11:10 PM
  #433
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Originally Posted by KlimasLoveChild View Post
I wouldn't be surprised if he signs for 2 years at close to five per year. That way he gets paid and the oilers don't take on the risk long term.
I agree.

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Originally Posted by Bryanbryoil View Post
Why should he get paid like a guy like Mike Ribeiro? Yes Gagner is younger but he'll be lucky to match Ribeiro's top seasons or even his production next year or the year after.
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Originally Posted by Bryanbryoil View Post
So you'd like to go on record right now and say that none of them will be top 6 players in the NHL next year or beyond?
Are you going on the record that Gagner will not top Ribeiro's production "next year or beyond"? Cause that's a bet I'll gladly take. Ribeiro is a nice player who made something of his career when he was about twenty seven - after the habs shipped him out. He's considerably older than Gagner. In fact , at 23 he was just finally breaking into the NHL at after more than one hundred AHL games. Gagner still has lots of room and time to get to where Ribeiro is right now.

People count Gagner's games played as a knock against him. "Oh, he's been six years in the NHL and hasn't learned a damn thing". I can't seriously believe that you want to count Gagner's (age) eighteen, nineteen seasons playing on this **** show team that was losing on purpose and had the worst coaching and management in the league in the same way you want to count Ribeiro's first season at age twenty two/three (seventeen points, -3). Why not be delighted that we have a player who by the age of twenty three already has 400 games and 250 points?
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I'm sorry but anything over $4.5 million is a major fail by management here and if Gagner wants more than that then he is for all intents and purposes punching his ticket
I don't disagree with that actually - except the "major" part maybe. I think Gagner knows full well the salary structure of this team, so if he asks for too much that probably means he'd rather not play in Edmonton. Then you can watch him turn into Mike Ribeiro elsewhere and we can all have fun making fantasy trades to bring him back.
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unless MacT wants him to be his Horcoff.
Horcoff is MacT's Horcoff. No doubt in my mind MacT had a big hand in that Horcoff deal. Its the thing that scares me most about having him as GM. Can we really trust a guy who offered the opinion, on national TV, that Horc should be on the Olympic team?

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06-24-2013, 11:10 PM
  #434
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Originally Posted by dnicks17 View Post
Yup. 28 points in the first 28 games. 10 points in the last 20 games.
EGADS!!! INCONSISTENCY!!!

Kick out the jams..

jebus, incomprehensible logic here. Kid puts up ppg most of the year, then .500 ppg in the last 20 games and he's complete junk , trade his ass, lets replace with guys with far less production that have shown nothing.

This is what I've learned in this thread.

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06-24-2013, 11:11 PM
  #435
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Originally Posted by Spawn View Post
Than put an asterisk next to anyones season and no ones production is worth anything.
I recall a lot of posters using the ppg argument to prop up Hemsky for years. The bottom line is how much you produce at the end of the day vs how much you cost the team at the end of the day.

Sam Gagner has been lukewarm at best when factoring in both ends of the ice. He certainly isnt worth five mill per season. Do you really want another Horcoffian contract? We are just getting rid of Horcoffs deal and now we are going to replace it with this?

I would rather lose Gagner to free agency and get nothing back than saddle this team with an unmovable contract for the next five or more years. Its not worth it.

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06-24-2013, 11:26 PM
  #436
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Bob Stauffer said today he expected a 4 year deal to be announced soon. He is not always accurate but that was pretty specific.

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06-25-2013, 12:42 AM
  #437
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Originally Posted by bucks_oil View Post
Great post!....

Now I'm curious. Would you apply the same logic if we were talking about an unproven macinnon, barkov or monohan, with gags traded for a solid D?
If there is one thing we have learned over the last 3 years its that rookie players, even the best ones in the world (and we've had the best in the world in Eberle/Hall/RNH/Yakupov/Schultz) do not actually make you a better hockey team. Now if they are surrounded by other elite talent they can contribute to a winning team (see the Hawks this year or the Bruins a couple back with Seguin), but as core pieces you don't get yourself anything resembling a winning hockey team.

If the Edmonton Oilers move Sam Gagner this off season (at this point it seems very unlikely) they need to add a veteran top 6 centerman who can replace him on the roster. No matter how promising MacKinnon or Barkov (we aren't getting them) or Monahan (not sure he is ready to be an NHLer let alone a reliable top 6 guy) are. They are not going to make the Oilers a more competitive hockey team in the immediate future.

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06-25-2013, 12:47 AM
  #438
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Originally Posted by I am the Liquor View Post
I recall a lot of posters using the ppg argument to prop up Hemsky for years. The bottom line is how much you produce at the end of the day vs how much you cost the team at the end of the day.

Sam Gagner has been lukewarm at best when factoring in both ends of the ice. He certainly isnt worth five mill per season. Do you really want another Horcoffian contract? We are just getting rid of Horcoffs deal and now we are going to replace it with this?

I would rather lose Gagner to free agency and get nothing back than saddle this team with an unmovable contract for the next five or more years. Its not worth it.
I'm hoping the Oilers don't have to pay Sam Gagner 5 million dollars. If they do I wont rightfully be able to defend the deal. Hopefully both sides can strike a reasonable deal though.

I will say one more thing about Gagner's season though. While he was not good defensively at 5v5, he was a key contributor to both our PP and PK. On the powerplay he was tied for the team lead in points and on the PK he had the best GA/60 on the team. We were top 10 in both PP and PK this year. Probably the only 2 things this team was top 10 in all year (don't quote me on that, didn't actually check). Gagner does deserve some credit for that and I don't think that enough people give him that credit.

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06-25-2013, 01:06 AM
  #439
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Originally Posted by Spawn View Post
I'm hoping the Oilers don't have to pay Sam Gagner 5 million dollars. If they do I wont rightfully be able to defend the deal. Hopefully both sides can strike a reasonable deal though.

I will say one more thing about Gagner's season though. While he was not good defensively at 5v5, he was a key contributor to both our PP and PK. On the powerplay he was tied for the team lead in points and on the PK he had the best GA/60 on the team. We were top 10 in both PP and PK this year. Probably the only 2 things this team was top 10 in all year (don't quote me on that, didn't actually check). Gagner does deserve some credit for that and I don't think that enough people give him that credit.
The thing is the Oilers have to make a decision on Gagner now. If they pay him too much then they will be committed for better or worse. That is the problem with giving him five mill per season on a deal with term.

Some might look at it and say it is a slight overpay of around a million dollars per give or take, but that could be the difference between being able to move him or not should the need arise. We cant box ourselves in like that. Gagner isnt a sure thing. He shouldnt be paid like he is regardless of our organizational needs at center.

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06-25-2013, 01:21 AM
  #440
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Originally Posted by I am the Liquor View Post
The thing is the Oilers have to make a decision on Gagner now. If they pay him too much then they will be committed for better or worse. That is the problem with giving him five mill per season on a deal with term.

Some might look at it and say it is a slight overpay of around a million dollars per give or take, but that could be the difference between being able to move him or not should the need arise. We cant box ourselves in like that. Gagner isnt a sure thing. He shouldnt be paid like he is regardless of our organizational needs at center.
Exactly. I'm a huge Gagner fan but we need players who can outperform there contracts to be successful. 5 years at 4 million. I'd rather give him term then $$

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06-25-2013, 02:05 AM
  #441
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I agree.


Are you going on the record that Gagner will not top Ribeiro's production "next year or beyond"? Cause that's a bet I'll gladly take. Ribeiro is a nice player who made something of his career when he was about twenty seven - after the habs shipped him out. He's considerably older than Gagner. In fact , at 23 he was just finally breaking into the NHL at after more than one hundred AHL games. Gagner still has lots of room and time to get to where Ribeiro is right now.

People count Gagner's games played as a knock against him. "Oh, he's been six years in the NHL and hasn't learned a damn thing". I can't seriously believe that you want to count Gagner's (age) eighteen, nineteen seasons playing on this **** show team that was losing on purpose and had the worst coaching and management in the league in the same way you want to count Ribeiro's first season at age twenty two/three (seventeen points, -3). Why not be delighted that we have a player who by the age of twenty three already has 400 games and 250 points?
I don't disagree with that actually - except the "major" part maybe. I think Gagner knows full well the salary structure of this team, so if he asks for too much that probably means he'd rather not play in Edmonton. Then you can watch him turn into Mike Ribeiro elsewhere and we can all have fun making fantasy trades to bring him back.
Horcoff is MacT's Horcoff. No doubt in my mind MacT had a big hand in that Horcoff deal. Its the thing that scares me most about having him as GM. Can we really trust a guy who offered the opinion, on national TV, that Horc should be on the Olympic team?
I'll bet that Gagner never reaches Ribeiro's career high in points in a season (83) and that Gagner won't outscore Ribeiro this season or next unless Ribeiro gets injured.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Spawn View Post
If there is one thing we have learned over the last 3 years its that rookie players, even the best ones in the world (and we've had the best in the world in Eberle/Hall/RNH/Yakupov/Schultz) do not actually make you a better hockey team. Now if they are surrounded by other elite talent they can contribute to a winning team (see the Hawks this year or the Bruins a couple back with Seguin), but as core pieces you don't get yourself anything resembling a winning hockey team.

If the Edmonton Oilers move Sam Gagner this off season (at this point it seems very unlikely) they need to add a veteran top 6 centerman who can replace him on the roster. No matter how promising MacKinnon or Barkov (we aren't getting them) or Monahan (not sure he is ready to be an NHLer let alone a reliable top 6 guy) are. They are not going to make the Oilers a more competitive hockey team in the immediate future.
That's what you've learned, I've learned that the best rookies can't win with a **** poor veteran supporting cast.

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06-25-2013, 04:19 AM
  #442
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At age 22 put up 8 point game age 23 on pace for 65 pts age24 shuts up the critics for good

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06-25-2013, 04:54 AM
  #443
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Gagner is a legitimate top 6 forward and approaching UFA age. It's fair that he would command 4.5-ish million per season as a UFA.

So, two RFA years at say 3.75-4M and 2 UFA years at 4.5M would seem fair to me.

4 year deal at 4.25M AV. I could see 4.5 at the high end, but would want to see it be a 5 year deal if that's the term.

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06-25-2013, 05:41 AM
  #444
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Originally Posted by Hemsky4PM View Post
Gagner is a legitimate top 6 forward and approaching UFA age. It's fair that he would command 4.5-ish million per season as a UFA.

So, two RFA years at say 3.75-4M and 2 UFA years at 4.5M would seem fair to me.

4 year deal at 4.25M AV. I could see 4.5 at the high end, but would want to see it be a 5 year deal if that's the term.
Agreed. A 4-5 year contract in the 4-4.5M range would be fair for both sides.

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06-25-2013, 06:28 AM
  #445
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Sign him or trade him but he is exactly the player we are looking for right now, he's just a couple years away from being an elite #2C.

Given Hopkins is likely a few years away from being a legit #1 C if he does at all, and given Horcoff is on the outs, I really cannot see Gagner being traded. I would only expect that if another C moves up the ladder or a guy like Hall moves to C.

If Hall goes to C successfully, then I would say moving Gagner for a high quality Prime aged Dman would be a good idea.
I think I am missing something here. You seem to question whether Hopkins will ever be a true #1C but yet are sure that in a couple of years Gagner will be an elite #2C?

As an 18 year old Nugent-Hopkins had more points in 62 games than Gagner has ever had in a single season. And with the exception of faceoffs which neither excels at, RNH is light-years ahead of Gagner in all other aspects of the game.

Personally I think there is little chance that Gagner ever becomes an elite #2C. He may well have the offensive numbers to compete with some of the best #2C's but he suffers in too many other aspects of the game to be elite in that spot.

This is not to say that I don't think he has value. He is a legit top six center, but he needs the right circumstance to really maximize his value to a team. And I personally do not believe that this would be with the Oilers given the make-up of the rest of their top six.

That said I don't think that these talks will go well. Gagner's point totals last year will make him shoot for a very big raise. It would not surprise me to see him sign somewhere for close to $5M. I just hope it is not in Edmonton since I don't think he is the answer going forward.

My guess is that he will use Arbitration as a trump card, but that could easily backfire and accelerate his departure from Edmonton.


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06-25-2013, 07:32 AM
  #446
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I'll bet that Gagner never reaches Ribeiro's career high in points in a season (83) and that Gagner won't outscore Ribeiro this season or next unless Ribeiro gets injured.



That's what you've learned, I've learned that the best rookies can't win with a **** poor veteran supporting cast.
Do you honestly expect the 7th pick, if it's a C - say Monahan or Lindholm - to be able to step into the Oilers line up out of major jr and play 2C in the NHL ?

Because if you do, you're going to be disappointed, and I for one do not want to see Belanger penciled into our lineup as the 2C. Without Horcoff or Gagner (or a suitable replacement) that's all we have.

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06-25-2013, 07:41 AM
  #447
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At age 22 put up 8 point game age 23 on pace for 65 pts age24 shuts up the critics for good


So you see him growing 2 inches, putting on ten pounds, gaining a step, learning how to win faceoffs, and play in his own end while continuing to score at the same pace as the first half of this season......I like your optimism.

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06-25-2013, 08:19 AM
  #448
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MacT has said that he wants Gagner on the win this year. So with RNH delayed, Horcoff getting the golden handshake, and Belanger unlikely to return, I think MacT must have three centers coming in. Not that the grass is always greener, but it'll be nice to have some new sod instead of all these dog **** dead patches.
Nice

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06-25-2013, 08:51 AM
  #449
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The thing is the Oilers have to make a decision on Gagner now. If they pay him too much then they will be committed for better or worse. That is the problem with giving him five mill per season on a deal with term.

Some might look at it and say it is a slight overpay of around a million dollars per give or take, but that could be the difference between being able to move him or not should the need arise. We cant box ourselves in like that. Gagner isnt a sure thing. He shouldnt be paid like he is regardless of our organizational needs at center.
He's only been one of the most consistent performers to enter the league in years. What do you mean he isn't a sure thing? That he will get less points then he has been on a regular basis? That he can't improve upon those numbers? Not really sure I get what you mean here. For those that think paying him 5 mill a year will hog tie us from being able to trade him (if we ever needed to)...give your head's a shake.

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06-25-2013, 08:58 AM
  #450
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He's only been one of the most consistent performers to enter the league in years. What do you mean he isn't a sure thing? That he will get less points then he has been on a regular basis? That he can't improve upon those numbers? Not really sure I get what you mean here. For those that think paying him 5 mill a year will hog tie us from being able to trade him (if we ever needed to)...give your head's a shake.
I hear that there are two ends of the rink.

Gagner may be the worst defensive zone centre in the league.

I suppose he's been consistent in that too.

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