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Oilers and Gagner working on extension: [UPD: Elected Arbitration]

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06-25-2013, 05:18 PM
  #526
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Let me preface this by saying I like Gagner and have wanted him to be our captain for a while because he seems like a very mature individual whose been through the bad and deserves some playoff success. Especially after seeing that tweet he put out about how "he can only dream of that feeling" (paraphrased).

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Originally Posted by dnicks17 View Post
If he gets $4.5M+, it's because he's purely a stopgap. A desperate move to not let a player walk a la Hemsky.

His future on the Oilers isn't at center and they can't be paying a small winger that much.


Good teams don't have centers like Gagner. Plain and simple.

Try to find a comparable center on Chicago, Boston, Detroit, Los Angeles, Pittsburgh or San Jose.

Won't happen.
This. If he wants more than 4.25 IMO, he gets needs to only be here for a 2/3 year contract.

I'd take Berglund (a physical, strong two-way players whose actually hit over 50 points before) well before Gags and look at what he just signed for!

Lets pretend Gags is in between Berglund and Tavares (he's significantly closer to Berglund than Tavares but oh well).

5.5+3.25/2=4.375. That's the absolute MAX we should be giving Gagner.

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Originally Posted by Replacement View Post
So random association induces causality now?

What a specious point.

Frankly if thats your starting point mechanism of logic you should give up now.

Of course you're not stating that it would be impossible to build a contender with a Center like Gagner in the mix.

Can we also get over this mythical fixation that theres one formula to build a contending team now? This hasn't been the case ever.

Good clubs assemble good talent and good depth talent and find players to supplement that talent. Which is certainly possible with a good GM.
Issue with Gagner is that you don't build around him, he's a secondary piece and should be paid as one. For Gagner to be effective he has to have people there to make up for his deficiencies (defense, physicality, faceoffs) which are all improving but will never be more than average. No reason to pay that kind of player top dollar even if you can (short-term).


Last edited by Gobo: 06-25-2013 at 05:23 PM.
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06-25-2013, 05:22 PM
  #527
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Quote:
Originally Posted by s7ark View Post
And if he won't bend knowing someone will likely offersheet him at 5M? Do we lose him for a 1st + 2nd + 3rd? Do we trade him before that happens for picks/prospects?

Vancouver - 5 players above 5M
Chicago - 6 players above 5M
Boston - 5 players above 5M
LA - 5 players above 5M
Pittsburgh - 5 players above 5M
Carolina - 5 players above 5M
SJ - 5 players above 5M

He's a 23 year old top 6 C that had top teams calling about his availability this season. At worst we'd have to retain 1M on the contract, but he'd still have trade value.
How many of those are forwards? Vancouver has 3, Chicago has 4,
Boston has 4, Los Angeles has 3, Pittsburgh has 3, Carolina has 4 and San Jose has 4.

No one in the NHL has a cap structure that allows for 5 forwards making that kind of money.

I actually really like Gagner and if we signed him for 4 mill, I would be jumping for joy.

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06-25-2013, 05:22 PM
  #528
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Replacement View Post
So random association induces causality now?

What a specious point.

Frankly if thats your starting point mechanism of logic you should give up now.

Of course you're not stating that it would be impossible to build a contender with a Center like Gagner in the mix.

Can we also get over this mythical fixation that theres one formula to build a contending team now? This hasn't been the case ever.

Good clubs assemble good talent and good depth talent and find players to supplement that talent. Which is certainly possible with a good GM.
Of course there isn't one way to build a contender, but those trying to build a contender have chosen to without a Gagner.

And it's been like that for a long time.

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06-25-2013, 05:28 PM
  #529
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I think he feels he deserves that kind of money cause when he looks up the lineup and see's Hall and Eberle making $6mil and this season he actually had more points then ebs in the same amount of games. He was also a high draft pick a few years ago but still think needs some work defensively and on faceoffs.

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06-25-2013, 05:32 PM
  #530
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DousedInOil View Post
How many of those are forwards? Vancouver has 3, Chicago has 4,
Boston has 4, Los Angeles has 3, Pittsburgh has 3, Carolina has 4 and San Jose has 4.

No one in the NHL has a cap structure that allows for 5 forwards making that kind of money.

I actually really like Gagner and if we signed him for 4 mill, I would be jumping for joy.
What d-man do we have that could make more than 5M? Maybe Schultz if he breaks out? If he and Gags both got over 5, then 3 seasons from now we'd be looking at having 5 forwards above 5M and 1 D. And the cap will probably be around 70M by then.

How many other teams in the league can boast the type of talent we have up front?

And also, why the fixation around the number 5M? If Gags got 250K less than that, would you still have this same objection that too much of our cap would be going towards forwards?

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06-25-2013, 05:35 PM
  #531
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DousedInOil View Post
How many of those are forwards? Vancouver has 3, Chicago has 4,
Boston has 4, Los Angeles has 3, Pittsburgh has 3, Carolina has 4 and San Jose has 4.

No one in the NHL has a cap structure that allows for 5 forwards making that kind of money.

I actually really like Gagner and if we signed him for 4 mill, I would be jumping for joy.
But several competitive clubs have a pay range that pays their top players a substantial portion of their cap. This is not a weird or isolated thing. Unlike many clubs that do the Oilers don't have any one single player that is among the highest paid players in the league. What they have instead is a growing deeper range of players that are earners.

In simplest terms we don't have a Crosby, and never will, but its important for us to have depth skill to compensate against teams that have "generational talents"

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06-25-2013, 05:39 PM
  #532
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Quote:
Originally Posted by s7ark View Post
Even if he isn't, do you really want to rely on the Oilers signing one of the only possible top 6 Cs on the UFA market?
If the alternative is another Horcoffian contract then yes. Of course we could always sign Gagner for one or two more years and avoid the pitfalls of a boat anchor long term deal. That would be preferable to an untradeable deal.

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06-25-2013, 05:39 PM
  #533
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dnicks17 View Post
Of course there isn't one way to build a contender, but those trying to build a contender have chosen to without a Gagner.

And it's been like that for a long time.
This being the key. Thank you.

Of course it can be done. Unless you want to disclose your time machine.

Unfortunately, its ideas like the one you perpetuated that start to get established as some sort of fact..

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06-25-2013, 05:44 PM
  #534
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Replacement View Post
This being the key. Thank you.

Of course it can be done. Unless you want to disclose your time machine.

Unfortunately, its ideas like the one you perpetuated that start to get established as some sort of fact..
So the Oilers are going to try to outsmart nearly every successful team in countless years?

Yeah, that's worked well for them in the past.

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06-25-2013, 05:47 PM
  #535
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dnicks17 View Post
If he gets $4.5M+, it's because he's purely a stopgap. A desperate move to not let a player walk a la Hemsky.

His future on the Oilers isn't at center and they can't be paying a small winger that much.


Good teams don't have centers like Gagner. Plain and simple.

Try to find a comparable center on Chicago, Boston, Detroit, Los Angeles, Pittsburgh or San Jose.

Won't happen.
And that's why MacT wants him on the wing. And I'm all for it.

We shouldn't be paying full price for a mini-donut, though.

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06-25-2013, 05:48 PM
  #536
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I would like a number around 4 or 4.5. However, I have almost zero confidence that the team will be able to replace three Gagner, Horcoff, and Belanger in one off season. And though I know the answer will be you can't keep build for the long term with him, the long term seems little more than a pipe dream until we get to a respectable point in the short term.

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06-25-2013, 05:50 PM
  #537
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Psycho Dad View Post
And that's why MacT wants him on the wing. And I'm all for it.

We shouldn't be paying full price for a mini-donut, though.
I don't know where he would fit on RW. Paying 4.5+ for a third line RW seems a little much.

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06-25-2013, 05:52 PM
  #538
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Quote:
Originally Posted by I am the Liquor View Post
If the alternative is another Horcoffian contract then yes. Of course we could always sign Gagner for one or two more years and avoid the pitfalls of a boat anchor long term deal. That would be preferable to an untradeable deal.

Gagner on a 5M deal will be tradeable. He's 23 yo and is currently in demand. At most we'd have to retain a bit of his cap hit to get a good return. His contract will not be like Horcoff's.


Last edited by s7ark: 06-25-2013 at 06:01 PM. Reason: spelling
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06-25-2013, 05:52 PM
  #539
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dnicks17 View Post
So the Oilers are going to try to outsmart nearly every successful team in countless years?

Yeah, that's worked well for them in the past.
haha.

You know my opinion only too well.

That said, with a new GM, new coaches, some org overhaul things could be different. Or I could be insane hoping for different results..

But seriously if we don't improve in GM capacity and utilize some smarts it doesn't really matter what we are paying Gagner does it?

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06-25-2013, 05:53 PM
  #540
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Psycho Dad View Post
And that's why MacT wants him on the wing. And I'm all for it.

We shouldn't be paying full price for a mini-donut, though.
I'd be fine paying him $4M to play wing for a few seasons here.

You can't pay your 4th best winger any more than that though.

Quote:
Originally Posted by jeremiahjones View Post
I don't know where he would fit on RW. Paying 4.5+ for a third line RW seems a little much.
I think he'd be better at LW.

That's where he seemed to have his success off the rush and on the PP.

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06-25-2013, 06:46 PM
  #541
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I still feel he signs at 5 years @4.6 23 million total.

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06-25-2013, 07:57 PM
  #542
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Quote:
Originally Posted by s7ark View Post
Gagner on a 5M deal will be tradeable. He's 23 yo and is currently in demand. At most we'd have to retain a bit of his cap hit to get a good return. His contract will not be like Horcoff's.
A guy that has yet to hit fifty points in a season, is poor on face offs, poor defensively, not big or physical will be tradeable with a 5mill cap hit?

I really dont see too many gm's being interested. Why would they be?

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06-25-2013, 08:01 PM
  #543
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Quote:
Originally Posted by I am the Liquor View Post
A guy that has yet to hit fifty points in a season, is poor on face offs, poor defensively, not big or physical will be tradeable with a 5mill cap hit?

I really dont see too many gm's being interested. Why would they be?
Why are they now, knowing what his likely salary demands are?

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06-25-2013, 08:03 PM
  #544
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Why are they now, knowing what his likely salary demands are?
We dont know that they are and we dont know what his salary demands are. If he is/was so valuable why wasnt he locked up last year? Or even now?

The way Mact is talking it sounds like a priority, and it sounds like you will be happy with the results. But he has been doing a lot of talking and not much doing so we will see.

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06-25-2013, 08:05 PM
  #545
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Quote:
Originally Posted by I am the Liquor View Post
A guy that has yet to hit fifty points in a season, is poor on face offs, poor defensively, not big or physical will be tradeable with a 5mill cap hit?

I really dont see too many gm's being interested. Why would they be?
+1 ... MacT's softened response in today's presser was a let down. All this talk about rewarding for sticking through tough years and showing loyalty screams Horcoff\Pisani resigning all over again.. Even at 4.5M Gagner will be overpaid for what he brings.

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06-25-2013, 08:08 PM
  #546
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Originally Posted by I am the Liquor View Post
We dont know that they are and we dont know what his salary demands are. If he is/was so valuable why wasnt he locked up last year? Or even now?
When guys like Dreger say something I put a fair amount of weight behind it. If you don't that cool. I believe him when he says that Gagner has had some suitors.

And from reports Gagner is MacT's priority to sign right now. So obviously he is seen as valuable by MacT. Last summer they wanted to give Gagner another season to see what he could do. And he responded with a 60p pace. I don't see anything to suggest that Gagner doesn't have value to the Oilers or around the league.

The only place I hear that is HF boards.

Edit: I moved our Gagner talk into this thread.

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06-25-2013, 08:10 PM
  #547
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That is what 2nd line centers get paid. Gagner is 23. He isn't perfect, but he is good as will only get better.

MacT and Co seem to think he is a great team guy.

If we had a upgrade available, then maybe not. They developed him for 6 years. Lock him up.

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06-25-2013, 08:14 PM
  #548
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Quote:
Originally Posted by EE AY HOCKEY CONNECT View Post
That is what 2nd line centers get paid. Gagner is 23. He isn't perfect, but he is good as will only get better.

MacT and Co seem to think he is a great team guy.

If we had a upgrade available, then maybe not. They developed him for 6 years. Lock him up.
He's not a good #2C though, why should he get paid like one?

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06-25-2013, 08:19 PM
  #549
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Quote:
Originally Posted by EE AY HOCKEY CONNECT View Post
That is what 2nd line centers get paid. Gagner is 23. He isn't perfect, but he is good as will only get better.

MacT and Co seem to think he is a great team guy.

If we had a upgrade available, then maybe not. They developed him for 6 years. Lock him up.
The guy doesnt deserve more than Voracek who is as developed and is at the moment a better producer. 4.25M x 3 more yrs.. Kulikov same draft is making 2.5Mx 2 more yrs.
JVR also 4.25x 5 more yrs.. Turris @ 3.5M x 5 more yrs

From this it looks like ~4.25M is what he deserves... Anything on top of it would be loyalty bonus.

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06-25-2013, 08:21 PM
  #550
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That is your opinion bro.

When you see how much Weiss gets, gagners contract will look better. If the rumors are true and the nhl is going to be making a billion dollars more per year in HRR within the next 3 years, gagners contract is gonna be looking pretty good.

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