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Oilers and Gagner working on extension: [UPD: Elected Arbitration]

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06-26-2013, 12:56 AM
  #601
s7ark
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Originally Posted by I am the Liquor View Post
He's never put up fifty points in a season. That gets you five million dollars? And not even a ufa at that? He was one of the worst 5v5 centers in the entire league this year. 164th in GAON/60 for centers. That's ****ing terrible.
Since he's giving up UFA years, it gets him 5M from a team that is already losing 2 of it's other top 4 Cs from last season, and may not have the 4th to start the season either. If Gagner wants to squeeze the team for an extra half mil, it'll probably work. And it won't be the end of the world for this season. It just might mean we have to look at trading him at the deadline, or next summer if he doesn't live up to the deal.

Gagner's ppg has been at the level of a 5M player on the UFA market. He's approaching UFA and could force the issue with arbitration if he makes it to RFA. We already offered him 4.5. An extra 500K just doesn't seem like that big a deal to me, given our depth at his position and the need to improve next season.

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06-26-2013, 12:59 AM
  #602
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So when does everyone think the trade floodgates will open. Tommorow, later in the week, draft day (sunday)?

I need to know when to start obsessively clicking on the refresh button on my browser and checking twitter every 5 min

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06-26-2013, 01:00 AM
  #603
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If the salary is where it was this year again in two years, $5m won't matter. If it's in the $65-$68m range it might. I'd like him in the $4.25-4.5m range but would do $4.75m.

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06-26-2013, 01:01 AM
  #604
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Originally Posted by s7ark View Post
Since he's giving up UFA years, it gets him 5M from a team that is already losing 2 of it's other top 4 Cs from last season, and may not have the 4th to start the season either. If Gagner wants to squeeze the team for an extra half mil, it'll probably work. And it won't be the end of the world for this season. It just might mean we have to look at trading him at the deadline, or next summer if he doesn't live up to the deal.

Gagner's ppg has been at the level of a 5M player on the UFA market. He's approaching UFA and could force the issue with arbitration if he makes it to RFA. We already offered him 4.5. An extra 500K just doesn't seem like that big a deal to me, given our depth at his position and the need to improve next season.

It doesnt bother you that he is a black hole defensively? Along with the other limitations? Do you honestly believe he is a 5mil player? I know you like him and all but really?

Ill leave you with this interesting tidbit I found looking at the stats at behind the green door..

While Gagner was 164th in GAON/60, Couturier was 160th and Brayden Schenn was 162nd. Both Schenn and Couturier had worse +/-ON/60 than Gagner.

So.............are they really the answer?

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06-26-2013, 01:03 AM
  #605
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Originally Posted by I am the Liquor View Post
It doesnt bother you that he is a black hole defensively? Along with the other limitations? Do you honestly believe he is a 5mil player? I know you like him and all but really?

Ill leave you with this interesting tidbit I found looking at the stats at behind the green door..

While Gagner was 164th in GAON/60, Couturier was 160th and Brayden Schenn was 162nd. Both Schenn and Couturier had worse +/-ON/60 than Gagner.

So.............are they really the answer?
I'm not a big fan of that stat. It can be very misleading, especially with players placed in shutdown roles.

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06-26-2013, 01:11 AM
  #606
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Originally Posted by AlbertaHockey20 View Post
I'm not a big fan of that stat. It can be very misleading, especially with players placed in shutdown roles.
Is Gagner in a shutdown role? How is it misleading? The guy is constantly losing his man, giving the puck away, losing puck battles, wandering off in a corner covering no one, it goes on and on. Not only does he bleed goals like a stuck pig 5v5, he doesnt score for **** at evens either.

He finished behind an injured RNH and freaking Shawn Horcoff in GFON/60 5v5.

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06-26-2013, 01:14 AM
  #607
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Originally Posted by I am the Liquor View Post
Is Gagner in a shutdown role? How is it misleading? The guy is constantly losing his man, giving the puck away, losing puck battles, wandering off in a corner covering no one, it goes on and on. Not only does he bleed goals like a stuck pig 5v5, he doesnt score for **** at evens either.

He finished behind an injured RNH and freaking Shawn Horcoff in GFON/60 5v5.
Whose fault is it though? The stat doesn't say. I wonder what Gagner's numbers in that department looked like the previous year when he was +5? Maybe pretty good, eh?

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06-26-2013, 01:15 AM
  #608
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Originally Posted by I am the Liquor View Post
Is Gagner in a shutdown role? How is it misleading? The guy is constantly losing his man, giving the puck away, losing puck battles, wandering off in a corner covering no one, it goes on and on. Not only does he bleed goals like a stuck pig 5v5, he doesnt score for **** at evens either.

He finished behind an injured RNH and freaking Shawn Horcoff in GFON/60 5v5.
Sounds like 5 million dollar contract to me!

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06-26-2013, 01:16 AM
  #609
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He's not gonna sign at 4mil, especially since he's 1 year away from becoming the youngest UFA ever. Guys like Pacioretty, Marchand, Versteeg have cap hits in the 4.4/4.5m range and Gagner easily matches those guys as comparables
Pacioretty's highest point total in one season is 65 pts, Marchand is 55, Versteeg has had over 50 a few times..
Gagner's highest season total is 49 points..
This season he was on pace for about 55 if he'd played the full season but I doubt he would've reached that since most his points came in the first 20 games, after that he went back to his usual 2 points in 10 games droughts..
I wouldn't pay Sam Gagner more than 4 mill per season, even that I think is an overpayment..he's purely a point getter and he's not even good at that, very very average. Based on his play he should get about 3.2 per season but I guess I'd overpay a bit.

I say trade him, I don't mind a few small players but enough is enough..Gagner isn't tiny but he doesn't play big either..he fights once a year but usually he accomplishes nothing when he fights, he finishes some of his checks but doesn't hit to hurt..his hockey IQ isn't really on the same level as the other kids..and he's not fast..if your a smaller, non-physical player you have to skate fast.

He's got a great attitude..so do alot of players, you don't get paid based on attitude.

I wouldn't mind if the Oilers traded him for a 1st round pick in the top 15..if he can get you that, if he can't then he's definitely not worth 4 million.

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06-26-2013, 01:22 AM
  #610
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I think they should overpay Gagner for 1 year at 5.5 million. It's not like we are going to be tight against thecap this season anyways. Plus we have a full season to evaluate his play and whether he is indeed a 65 point player
I just don't feel like handing out 5 mil/year on a multi year contract to a player who couldn't reach past 50 points for his career and had one good half season.

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06-26-2013, 01:25 AM
  #611
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Originally Posted by I am the Liquor View Post
It doesnt bother you that he is a black hole defensively? Along with the other limitations? Do you honestly believe he is a 5mil player? I know you like him and all but really?

Ill leave you with this interesting tidbit I found looking at the stats at behind the green door..

While Gagner was 164th in GAON/60, Couturier was 160th and Brayden Schenn was 162nd. Both Schenn and Couturier had worse +/-ON/60 than Gagner.

So.............are they really the answer?
No, I think he's a 4.5 - 4.75M player, factoring in UFA years. I am just not wiling to start the season with an entirely different C group over a few hundred K.

He isn't a perfect player. And if he wants to much and his contract is going to impact the team badly going into the 2014/15 season, then we look to move him next deadline/draft/summer. But for next season, I think we should bite the bullet, pay him what it takes to keep him, and start looking for a replacement if he doesn't fit into the cap going forward.

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06-26-2013, 01:50 AM
  #612
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If Horcoff gets moved and we can sign Gagner, I wouldn't mind a scenario where we take Monahan or Lindholm at 7, give them a year as the third line center then trade Gagner after another year of development. Hopefully he continues his development and increases his trade value (especially if the cap presumably also goes up). This gives the new guy a year to get used to the league (much like Montreal did with Galchenyuk) and maximizes return.

Some very big question marks but if everything works out not bad depth at center this year and going forward:

RNH
Gagner
Lindholm/Monahan
Lander?

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06-26-2013, 01:53 AM
  #613
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Originally Posted by s7ark View Post
No, I think he's a 4.5 - 4.75M player, factoring in UFA years. I am just not wiling to start the season with an entirely different C group over a few hundred K.

He isn't a perfect player. And if he wants to much and his contract is going to impact the team badly going into the 2014/15 season, then we look to move him next deadline/draft/summer. But for next season, I think we should bite the bullet, pay him what it takes to keep him, and start looking for a replacement if he doesn't fit into the cap going forward.
What is the opinion on dollars with him. Is it $4.5? From an outside perspective, I think that's pretty fair on a four year deal. I mean, let's say they move him for a D.... Someone like Phaneuf. They still have to replace his production. So the way I see it, they then have to go spend on someone like Bozak and hope he can put up the points. A guy like Filppula would be great but he's really a secondary scorer and you cant rely on him for off production..

I just think when it's all said and done, keeping Gagner makes to much sense. Trade Hemsky for a good defender, sign another D and add a couple guys from winning organizations that play along the walls well...

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06-26-2013, 01:55 AM
  #614
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So VinceT has stated that...

1. Gagner is an important piece to this team's future.
2. Would like to reward his tough road with a lenghty contract.
3. In a perfect world he'd like to see Gagner play the wing to achieve depth.

(3.) It's the only move that I would be on board with to keep Gags on the team, and which I fully support with the proper 2C in place. That 2C would need to have some size, be defensively sound, and have an offensive touch. It gives us the luxury of having three top 6 centers when healthy, and if Nuge isn't ready to go, it gives the team a good chance to remain competitve to begin the season.

My question is can Gagner efectively play on the LW? If my memory serves my correct, it was RW that he played in the past. Having a 1-2 punch of Yak and Ebs on the right side leads me to believe that Vince thinks that he can succeed as the 2LW.

I can see a future top 6 of....

Hall - Nuge - Yakupov
Gagner - Monohan/Couturier/Richards/Whoever - Eberle

Not too shabby.

Him turning down the 4.5 x 4 deal worries me though. He shouldn't get more then $5M...4 years is right were it should be...and no way would I want to add a NTC/NMC. I thought it was a great offer and fair for both sides.

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06-26-2013, 01:58 AM
  #615
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So VinceT has stated that...

1. Gagner is an important piece to this team's future.
2. Would like to reward his tough road with a lenghty contract.
3. In a perfect world he'd like to see Gagner play the wing to achieve depth.

(3.) It's the only move that I would be on board with to keep Gags on the team, and which I fully support with the proper 2C in place. That 2C would need to have some size, be defensively sound, and have an offensive touch. It gives us the luxury of having three top 6 centers when healthy, and if Nuge isn't ready to go, it gives the team a good chance to remain competitve to begin the season.

My question is can Gagner efectively play on the LW? If my memory serves my correct, it was RW that he played in the past. Having a 1-2 punch of Yak and Ebs on the right side leads me to believe that Vince thinks that he can succeed as the 2LW.

I can see a future top 6 of....

Hall - Nuge - Yakupov
Gagner - Monohan/Couturier/Richards/Whoever - Eberle

Not too shabby.

Him turning down the 4.5 x 4 deal worries me though. He shouldn't get more then $5M...4 years is right were it should be...and no way would I want to add a NTC/NMC. I thought it was a great offer and fair for both sides.
Not sure he can play wing even strength. At least not effectively

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06-26-2013, 01:59 AM
  #616
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Originally Posted by AlbertaHockey20 View Post
Whose fault is it though? The stat doesn't say. I wonder what Gagner's numbers in that department looked like the previous year when he was +5? Maybe pretty good, eh?
You mean when he was being carried by Belanger and Paajarvi defensively?

How about the year before that when he was one of the worst in the league for all forwards, never mind just centers?

If you guys want to bury your heads in the sand and pretend he is something he isnt then fill yer boots.

Im not gonna be a part of it.

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06-26-2013, 02:05 AM
  #617
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Well someone's gonna get squeezed since teams can't lower the cap hit by tacking on extra low salary years at the end. Now you have the like of Perry, Getzlaf, etc getting 8m+ cap hits instead of perhaps 6.5/7
It's the players who will get squeezed. Although I'm not sure if Gagner 'only' getting $4M a year would really be that much of a hardship.

This off-season will illustrate why a cap is a good thing long-term for the league. Players will have to take slightly less than comparable players are already signed for. That's a natural result of an 8 1/2 percent cut in the cap.

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06-26-2013, 03:37 AM
  #618
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If he turned down 4.5 per for 4 then deal him at the draft while there's still buzz around him. You can get more Sam Gagners and the return will probably be the best it ever will be for him right now. If his camp turned down that offer then they are high.

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06-26-2013, 08:51 AM
  #619
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He's not gonna sign at 4mil, especially since he's 1 year away from becoming the youngest UFA ever. Guys like Pacioretty, Marchand, Versteeg have cap hits in the 4.4/4.5m range and Gagner easily matches those guys as comparables
Not sure if serious.
Pacioretty is a power forward who scored 33 goals and 65 points in his contract year and 15 goals and 39 points in 44 games this season.
Marchand is an agitator who is a proven playoff performer who also happens to be a 30 goal scorer or close to. These guys also have better all around games.
Gagner hasn't even broken 50 pts yet to go along with limitations in other aspects of his game.
Gagner is probably better than Versteeg but he is nowhere near as good as Pacioretty or Marchand, don't be ridiculous.

I understand that Gagner is 1 year away from UFA so he does hold all the cards i suppose but that doesn't mean that management should bend over and cave into his ridiculous demands just because he gives effort and is a solid team guy.
What else has he done to earn such a big contract? Seriously.
Hasn't even broken 50 pts and is average to below average in every other aspect of the game. For a supposed offensive dynamo, he sure hasn't produced a lot of offense throughout his career (up until the first half of this season) with ample opportunity given to him.
I'm trying not to dislike the guy but some of you are delusional in regards to what he brings to the team (the post i quoted being Exhibit A). Perhaps he improves a lot in the coming years, i wouldn't be shocked but thus far, he has been a mediocre performer considering what a top 6 center should be as an overall player and he wants to be paid as a very good player.
I don't want him dealt now without a solid contingency plan in place but lets not act like he's comparable with players like Pacioretty and Marchand and deserves the contract that they got.


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06-26-2013, 09:30 AM
  #620
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Gagner scores at a reasonable rate for a 2nd line center.
Gagner scores at a very consistent rate.
Gagner has more balls than a lot of guys on this team toughness wise.
Gagner is only 23 and has been an NHLer for 5 years.
He's not big or physical or a great face off guy.

The Oilers need to sign him or make sure they get a true 2nd line center before the year starts. As long as you do not include any nmc or ntc you can still sign the guy and rethink if you want him on the team down the road.

To get rid of him now without a suitable replacement would be a bad bad thing.

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06-26-2013, 09:49 AM
  #621
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Gagner scores at a reasonable rate for a 2nd line center.
Gagner scores at a very consistent rate.
Gagner has more balls than a lot of guys on this team toughness wise.
Gagner is only 23 and has been an NHLer for 5 years.
He's not big or physical or a great face off guy.

The Oilers need to sign him or make sure they get a true 2nd line center before the year starts. As long as you do not include any nmc or ntc you can still sign the guy and rethink if you want him on the team down the road.

To get rid of him now without a suitable replacement would be a bad bad thing.
Gagner gets scored on at a very consistent rate.
Gagner can't win a puck battle, let alone a face punching contest.
Gagner has been in the NHL for 5 years and hasn't cracked 50 points yet.
He's not big or physical or an adequate face off guy.

The Oilers need to trade him to fill other holes in the roster and get a true 2nd line centre before the year starts. Paying him anything north of $4.5 million is crazy pants insane.

To get rid of him now without a suitable replacement would be the lesser of two evils.

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06-26-2013, 09:59 AM
  #622
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Gagner gets scored on at a very consistent rate.
Gagner can't win a puck battle, let alone a face punching contest.
Gagner has been in the NHL for 5 years and hasn't cracked 50 points yet.
He's not big or physical or an adequate face off guy.

The Oilers need to trade him to fill other holes in the roster and get a true 2nd line centre before the year starts. Paying him anything north of $4.5 million is crazy pants insane.

To get rid of him now without a suitable replacement would be the lesser of two evils.
Some of you dudes have forgotten what it is like for the 5 or 6 years when we had ZERO viable top two centers. Horcoff was our #1 center for years, had worse 5 of 5 plus minus numbers, had more ice time, less production, just as unphysical.

If you want to get rid of Gagner as a strategic decision fine and dandy I have no issue with that. You better bloody well have a real viable #2 center in your back pocket, especially with an injured, slightly built #1 center. If you let your disdain for certain parts of the guys game cloud what is best overall for the team you belong with 6 rings as far as management prowess goes.

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06-26-2013, 10:00 AM
  #623
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Gagner gets scored on at a very consistent rate.
Gagner can't win a puck battle, let alone a face punching contest.
Gagner has been in the NHL for 5 years and hasn't cracked 50 points yet.
He's not big or physical or an adequate face off guy.

The Oilers need to trade him to fill other holes in the roster and get a true 2nd line centre before the year starts. Paying him anything north of $4.5 million is crazy pants insane.

To get rid of him now without a suitable replacement would be the lesser of two evils.
This is so untrue, just toss Lander on the second line and think we will be better?
Is Gagner ideal? maybe not but he is all we got right now and we need him.

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06-26-2013, 10:06 AM
  #624
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This contract is actually a pretty big test for MacT. He really needs to avoid a Horcoffian contract and not be afraid to walk away if the deal is too rich.

I love Gagner's attitude and work ethic and believe his defensive play will improve with age - not uncommon for it to take a while to develop. Not sure his offense will get that much better, but he obviously has a great supporting cast. I think he's ideally suited to a top-6 winger role (maybe third line on a great team). But needs dictate otherwise right now.

I'm hoping his deal is in the 2-3 year range. 5 years is too long IMO. Could become an anchor.

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06-26-2013, 10:25 AM
  #625
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Let's hope Craiggie Mac doesn't mess this one up and signs him for too much...

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