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Oilers and Gagner working on extension: [UPD: Elected Arbitration]

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06-26-2013, 10:33 AM
  #626
jadeddog
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Originally Posted by worraps View Post
Gagner gets scored on at a very consistent rate.
Gagner can't win a puck battle, let alone a face punching contest.
Gagner has been in the NHL for 5 years and hasn't cracked 50 points yet.
He's not big or physical or an adequate face off guy.

The Oilers need to trade him to fill other holes in the roster and get a true 2nd line centre before the year starts. Paying him anything north of $4.5 million is crazy pants insane.

To get rid of him now without a suitable replacement would be the lesser of two evils.
i'm gonna go ahead and say that you are 100% wrong in this

if you feel like we should get rid of gagner, fine... but we better have a 2nd line C replacement lined up, or we'll be in the lottery next year again for sure

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06-26-2013, 10:40 AM
  #627
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i'm gonna go ahead and say that you are 100% wrong in this

if you feel like we should get rid of gagner, fine... but we better have a 2nd line C replacement lined up, or we'll be in the lottery next year again for sure
And if we sign him to a boat anchor contract then you better be prepared to lose one of Hall, Eberle, Schultz, Yakupov or some other player we dont want to part with down the line because we can no longer afford them under the cap.


I think being in the lottery next year would be preferable to that.

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06-26-2013, 11:15 AM
  #628
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i'm gonna go ahead and say that you are 100% wrong in this

if you feel like we should get rid of gagner, fine... but we better have a 2nd line C replacement lined up, or we'll be in the lottery next year again for sure
I don't buy this argument at all. Any actual NHL centre would be an upgrade over Gagner on the second line.

I say actual NHL centre because Sam Gagner isn't one. Gagner is a smallish scoring winger that the Oilers play at a centre. He plays in the corners like a smallish winger, he takes faceoffs like a smallish winger, he plays in his own zone like a smallish winger.

With Hemsky out of the picture, Sam Gagner is the third best right winger on the Oilers' roster. We have to give to get and Gagner is the most expendable player we have on our roster.

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06-26-2013, 11:15 AM
  #629
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I'm wondering what this "youngest UFA ever" thing has to do with his value as a hockey player.

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06-26-2013, 11:17 AM
  #630
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Originally Posted by I am the Liquor View Post
And if we sign him to a boat anchor contract then you better be prepared to lose one of Hall, Eberle, Schultz, Yakupov or some other player we dont want to part with down the line because we can no longer afford them under the cap.


I think being in the lottery next year would be preferable to that.
Boat anchor! That's funny! But we're talking $0.500 difference between the sweet spot and overpaid. But good hyperbole.

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06-26-2013, 11:18 AM
  #631
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Originally Posted by I am the Liquor View Post
And if we sign him to a boat anchor contract then you better be prepared to lose one of Hall, Eberle, Schultz, Yakupov or some other player we dont want to part with down the line because we can no longer afford them under the cap.


I think being in the lottery next year would be preferable to that.
So if he is dealt who do you propose we get that is not going to have a Gagner like contract and thus hamstring the team? If the going rate for a 2nd line center is 4.5 million then that is what you are going to have to pay.

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06-26-2013, 11:20 AM
  #632
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Originally Posted by worraps View Post
I don't buy this argument at all. Any actual NHL centre would be an upgrade over Gagner on the second line.

I say actual NHL centre because Sam Gagner isn't one. Gagner is a smallish scoring winger that the Oilers play at a centre. He plays in the corners like a smallish winger, he takes faceoffs like a smallish winger, he plays in his own zone like a smallish winger.

With Hemsky out of the picture, Sam Gagner is the third best right winger on the Oilers' roster. We have to give to get and Gagner is the most expendable player we have on our roster.
Teams simply do not offer up quality 2nd round centers for peanuts. You can get rid of him but be prepared to pay a huge premium to get a replacement, either trade wise or contract wise. If you don't replace him you are going backwards, not forwards.

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06-26-2013, 11:22 AM
  #633
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Gagner is a good player. Ideally, he's on the LW within 2 years. I am fine with him on the wing with Yakupov on the other side - and a bigger C like Monahan.

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06-26-2013, 11:24 AM
  #634
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Dave Bolland is the center everyone in this thread wants Gagner to be and yet the Hawks elected to regulate him to the 3rd line.

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06-26-2013, 11:25 AM
  #635
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Originally Posted by worraps View Post
I don't buy this argument at all. Any actual NHL centre would be an upgrade over Gagner on the second line.

I say actual NHL centre because Sam Gagner isn't one.
Oh come on... But back here on planet Earth, Gagner is a fine centre.

If he's not an NHL centre, he wouldn't be doing so well playing as one.

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06-26-2013, 11:32 AM
  #636
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Originally Posted by Beerfish View Post
So if he is dealt who do you propose we get that is not going to have a Gagner like contract and thus hamstring the team? If the going rate for a 2nd line center is 4.5 million then that is what you are going to have to pay.
I'd pay far north of $4.5M for an actual 2C who has all the requisite tools in his toolbox instead of $4.5M for Gagner.

What should we pay for a small waterbug winger with most of six seasons at C because we were afraid he'd get merged with the boards as a younger player?

As far as I'm concerned, we've already committed the sin by having him play above his comfort level, reap the scoring benefits, yet get killed on all other aspects, while the team languishes at the bottom of the league. Now we're supposed to face the day of reckoning by paying him a ridiculous amount, strictly on the basis of G-A-Pts. I'm saying we need to dodge that bullet, and start fresh with something that we didn't have when Sam joined the team: Talent.

Those who do not learn from the past are doomed to repeat it. Even with #1 picks.

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06-26-2013, 11:33 AM
  #637
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Gagner will be Edmontons next whipping boy once Horcoff is gone. Both are/will be one dimensional overpaid underachievers.

*insert Gagner/ Steve Ott video here

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06-26-2013, 11:37 AM
  #638
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Sign 'er up Sam and stay on board. I for one am happy with the progress and compete level has shown over the past season. I am confident the Oilers are going to address center needs here within the next 2 weeks and we will all be happy. Sam is a part of that picture, as well he should be.

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06-26-2013, 11:38 AM
  #639
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Originally Posted by Psycho Dad View Post
I'd pay far north of $4.5M for an actual 2C who has all the requisite tools in his toolbox instead of $4.5M for Gagner.

What should we pay for a small waterbug winger with most of six seasons at C because we were afraid he'd get merged with the boards as a younger player?

As far as I'm concerned, we've already committed the sin by having him play above his comfort level, reap the scoring benefits, yet get killed on all other aspects, while the team languishes at the bottom of the league. Now we're supposed to face the day of reckoning by paying him a ridiculous amount, strictly on the basis of G-A-Pts. I'm saying we need to dodge that bullet, and start fresh with something that we didn't have when Sam joined the team: Talent.

Those who do not learn from the past are doomed to repeat it. Even with #1 picks.
Feel free to share the lengthy list of 2nd line centers you are talking about.

As in who is available, who we have to trade to get that player. etc.

It's just not that simple, every team would love a 6'3" banger who can score, play defense and be a great 2nd line center. Those are scarce.

(As an aside, I hope to hell every person in this thread that is blasting Gagner and his limited attributes have never been Horcoff fans otherwise they are koo koo in the head.)

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06-26-2013, 11:39 AM
  #640
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Originally Posted by smackdaddy View Post
Dave Bolland is the center everyone in this thread wants Gagner to be and yet the Hawks elected to regulate him to the 3rd line.
I'm not sure what point you're trying to make here. Comparing the Oilers to the Hawks is pretty disingenuous at this point. Considering they just won the cup and the Oilers are struggling to put together enough warm bodies to ice 12 reasonable forwards next season.

Are you suggesting that at some point in the future the Oilers might move Gagner to the 3rd line if they get a bigger bodied, or better option as a 2nd line C?

Because as it stands right now, Gagner isn't a 3rd line center on the Oilers. The Oilers don't have near the depth at C that they require to even consider putting Gagner on the 3rd line. Hell, there's no indication that the Oilers have anyone in their system today that tracks high enough to move Gagner off the 2nd line. Any player we draft this season is probably years away from challenging Gagner for the 2nd line center position anyways.

If some player, any player in the Oilers organization magically becomes a 2nd line center that bumps Gagner down in the depth chart over the next 3 years that would be a good problem to have, because that would mean one of our prospects took a massive leap in their development.

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06-26-2013, 11:49 AM
  #641
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Originally Posted by tempest2i View Post
I'm not sure what point you're trying to make here. Comparing the Oilers to the Hawks is pretty disingenuous at this point. Considering they just won the cup and the Oilers are struggling to put together enough warm bodies to ice 12 reasonable forwards next season.

Are you suggesting that at some point in the future the Oilers might move Gagner to the 3rd line if they get a bigger bodied, or better option as a 2nd line C?

Because as it stands right now, Gagner isn't a 3rd line center on the Oilers. The Oilers don't have near the depth at C that they require to even consider putting Gagner on the 3rd line. Hell, there's no indication that the Oilers have anyone in their system today that tracks high enough to move Gagner off the 2nd line. Any player we draft this season is probably years away from challenging Gagner for the 2nd line center position anyways.

If some player, any player in the Oilers organization magically becomes a 2nd line center that bumps Gagner down in the depth chart over the next 3 years that would be a good problem to have, because that would mean one of our prospects took a massive leap in their development.
Nope I'm saying those types of players are regulated to where they belong - the third line.

Gagner is not a third line player, yet everyone here wants him to embody not only 2C qualities, but 3C as well. Checking roles and defense-first players are what comprise a 3rd line these days, something Gagner will likely never be. But what Gagner is, is a decent 2C who can score and work hard doing it. Patrick Kane was the Hawks 2C in the cup final. Don't see anyone complaining about his size or defense playing against the prototypical size/defense team.

All I see are people here moving goal posts on Gagner, slagging him because he's not of the ilk of Toews or Datsyuk. Fact is he doesn't have to be. We'll find someone to fill that 3C who embodies all those characteristics that you want Gagner to have. Then Gagner can focus on scoring points and flipping you the bird every time he does it.

If we find someone to replace Gagner, it doesn't push him to 3C. That would be a horrible misuse for the reasons presented in this thread. It would just make him expendable. Gagner is not a 3rd liner. Gagner is not a checker. The obsession with defensive ability/board play/etc are just that.. obsessions. While there is definitely room for improvement in these areas, they are not as important as his faceoff percentage and continued production.

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06-26-2013, 12:34 PM
  #642
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Originally Posted by Beerfish View Post
Feel free to share the lengthy list of 2nd line centers you are talking about.

As in who is available, who we have to trade to get that player. etc.

It's just not that simple, every team would love a 6'3" banger who can score, play defense and be a great 2nd line center. Those are scarce.

(As an aside, I hope to hell every person in this thread that is blasting Gagner and his limited attributes have never been Horcoff fans otherwise they are koo koo in the head.)
I already listed several ways to acquire candidates to fill the position of 2C. It's funny how Gagner defenders' first defense is always "There's no one out there! Not a single player available! Since we haven't done it yet, it's not doable!"

Horcoff (and I'm not a fan) actually did play competently as a 1C for a few years before injury and subsequent fall from grace. Gagner's the same guy from six years ago, just playing alongside better players finally.

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06-26-2013, 12:45 PM
  #643
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Originally Posted by Psycho Dad View Post
I already listed several ways to acquire candidates to fill the position of 2C. It's funny how Gagner defenders' first defense is always "There's no one out there! Not a single player available! Since we haven't done it yet, it's not doable!"

Horcoff (and I'm not a fan) actually did play competently as a 1C for a few years before injury and subsequent fall from grace. Gagner's the same guy from six years ago, just playing alongside better players finally.
If you listed actual candidates then you'll have to point me to that post. If you just listed ways to get one then forgive me if that doesn't cut it for me. It's a lot easier said than done to get players like centers and good D-men if anything the last few years of the oilers woes should show you that.

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06-26-2013, 12:56 PM
  #644
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Gagner is just now entering his prime years. Let him go now and someone else will gladly reap the rewards. I do however feel that he is not the "perfect" candidate for a 2-line C behind the lanky Nuge, but we have grown with him and he is rooted in this team and community - a compromise should be reached, and that should involve at least a mild home-town discount (that money then being used to assure that we can afford to flank him with sizeable, brutish, offensive linemates). Then we can all be happy together -- except maybe his ruthless agent.

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06-26-2013, 12:58 PM
  #645
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If we keep Gagner we need a coupe of big bodied centers with some nasty and good faceoff skills to round out our center ice position.

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06-26-2013, 01:21 PM
  #646
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Detriot seems fine without a big nasty center

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06-26-2013, 01:29 PM
  #647
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Detriot seems fine without a big nasty center
I don't think we need a big nasty C either.

I think the team just needs players that are better defensively.

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06-26-2013, 01:31 PM
  #648
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If we keep Gagner we need a coupe of big bodied centers with some nasty and good faceoff skills to round out our center ice position.
4th line C's will probably come and go, but with that 1-2 we need in our core a big serious 3rd line C who can take the desperate D-zone draws, PKs, etc. Then focus on adding at least one serious sizable winger to the top 6 and I think that we will be fine and dandy. (The real problem for me has always been our D. We have desperately needed a Bobby Orr or a Ray Bourque for the last few years just to make our D corps halfway competitive).

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06-26-2013, 01:37 PM
  #649
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If we keep Gagner we need a coupe of big bodied centers with some nasty and good faceoff skills to round out our center ice position.
I don't see why that would be difficult. We could easily add Peverley and Smith as our 3/4 this offseason

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06-26-2013, 02:25 PM
  #650
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With Gagner it all comes down to the return. It has to be a significant player coming back, like perhaps John Boychuck or Bobby Ryan or Tyler Meyer. But those offers r unlikely.

Mact said they may have build a line around Sam. Enter: Nishuskin.

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