HFBoards

Go Back   HFBoards > General Hockey Discussion > The History of Hockey
Mobile Hockey's Future Become a Sponsor Site Rules Support Forum vBookie Page 2
The History of Hockey Relive great moments in hockey history and discuss how the game has changed over time.

Hasek vs. Roy : Head-to-Head (Game-by-Game)

Reply
 
Thread Tools
Old
06-24-2013, 03:40 AM
  #1
Ruston*
 
Join Date: Jun 2013
Posts: 614
vCash: 500
Hasek vs. Roy : Head-to-Head (Game-by-Game)

Dominik Hasek (vs. Patrick Roy)

NHL Regular Season

12/19/92, 60 mins., 23 SV/27 SA, L
2/27/93, 20 mins., 6 SV/7 SA, ND
10/09/93, 1 mins., 22 sec., 0 SV/0 SA, ND
1/29/94, 60 mins., 28 SV/30 SA, W
4/08/94, 60 mins., 31 SV/31 SA, W
3/08/95, 65 mins., 30 SV/32 SA, T
4/29/95, 65 mins., 29 SV/32 SA, T
5/01/95, 60 mins., 32 SV/32 SA, W
12/13/95, 60 mins., 28 SV/31 SA, W
11/02/96, 65 mins., 32 SV/32 SA, T
10/28/97, 60 mins., 16 SV/19 SA, L
10/12/98, 60 mins., 32 SV/32 SA, W
2/03/99, 59 mins., 30 SV/34 SA, L
2/08/00, 60 mins., 24 SV/24 SA, W
12/05/01, 60 mins., 14 SV/18 SA, L
2/04/02, 60 mins., 23 SV/24 SA, W
3/23/02, 59 mins., 55 sec., 31 SV/31 SA, W

8 W - 4 L - 3 T
1.73 GAA (27 GA/15.59 GP [935.28333 mins.])
93.81 SV% (409 SV/436 SA)
6 SO



NHL Playoffs

5/18/02, 60 mins., 24 SV/27 SA, W
5/20/02, 62 mins. 17 sec., 22 SV/26 SA, L
5/22/02, 72 mins. 41 sec., 20 SV/21 SA, W
5/25/02, 57 mins., 19 SV/22 SA, L
5/27/02, 66 mins. 24 sec., 27 SV/29 SA, L
5/29/02, 60 mins., 24 SV/24 SA, W
5/31/02, 60 mins., 19 SV/19 SA, W

4 W - 3 L
1.79 GAA (13/7.31 GP [438.3667 mins.])
92.26 SV% (155 SV/168 SA)
2 SO



International - Olympics

2/20/98, 70 mins., 24 SV/25 SA, W (SO: 5 SV/5 SA)

1 W - 0 L
0.86 GAA (1 GA/1.1667 GP [70 mins.])
96.00 SV% (24 SV/25 SA)



Combined (just for curiosity's sake)

13 W - 7 L - 3 T
1.70 GAA (41 GA/24.06 GP [1,443.65 mins.])
93.53 SV% (593 SV/634 SA)
8 SO


---------------------------------------------------

Patrick Roy (vs. Dominik Hasek)

NHL Regular Season

12/19/92, 60 mins., 27 SV/29 SA, W
2/27/93, 60 mins., 26 SV/30 SA, W
10/09/93, 60 mins., 16 SV/20 SA, W
1/29/94, 60 mins., 19 SV/22 SA, L
4/08/94, 60 mins., 27 SV/28 SA, L
3/08/95, 65 mins., 14 SV/16 SA, T
4/29/95, 65 mins., 36 SV/39 SA, T
5/01/95, 60 mins., 27 SV/29 SA, L
12/13/95, 60 mins., 30 SV/34 SA, L
11/02/96, 65 mins., 20 SV/20 SA, T
10/28/97, 60 mins., 19 SV/21 SA, W
10/12/98, 60 mins., 24 SV/27 SA, L
2/03/99, 60 mins., 37 SV/40 SA, W
2/08/00, 60 mins., 25 SV/27 SA, L
12/05/01, 60 mins., 30 SV/31 SA, W
2/04/02, 59 mins., 48 sec., 31 SV/33 SA, L
3/23/02, 58 mins., 49 sec., 24 SV/26 SA, L

6 W - 8 L - 3 T
2.32 GAA (40 GA/17.23 GP [1,033.61667 mins.])
91.53 SV% (432 SV/472 SA)
1 SO



NHL Playoffs

5/18/02, 58 mins. 37 sec. 25 SV/30 SA, L
5/20/02, 62 mins. 12 sec., 30 SV/33 SA, W
5/22/02, 72 mins. 44 sec., 40 SV/42 SA, L
5/25/02, 60 mins., 31 SV/33 SA, W
5/27/02, 66 mins. 24 sec., 26 SV/27 SA, W
5/29/02, 57 mins. 12 sec., 26 SV/28 SA, L
5/31/02, 26 mins. 28 sec., 10 SV/16 SA, L

3 W - 4 L
3.12 GAA (21 GA/6.73 GP [403.61667 mins.])
89.95 SV% (188 SV/209 SA)



International - Olympics

2/20/98, 70 mins., 27 SV/28 SA (SO: 3 SV/4 SA), L

0 W - 1 L
0.86 GAA (1 GA/1.1667 GP [70 mins.])
96.43 SV% (27 SV/28 SA)



Combined (just for curiosity's sake)

9 W - 13 L - 3 T
2.51 GAA (63 GA/25.12 GP [1,507.2333 mins.])
91.16 SV% (650 SV/713 SA)
1 SO



http://hockeygoalies.org/bio/hasek.html
http://hockeygoalies.org/bio/roy.html

Ruston* is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
06-24-2013, 04:30 AM
  #2
GuineaPig
Registered User
 
GuineaPig's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2011
Location: Montréal
Posts: 2,136
vCash: 500
Interesting, but really ultimately pointless. 23 games, spread over their respective careers, is really nothing in terms of a sample. I think Hasek was better than Roy, head-to-head performance has nothing to do with it.

It would've been quite interesting if Hasek had spent his entire career in Detroit, though. Although that probably would've made that rivalry very one-sided.

GuineaPig is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
06-24-2013, 05:19 AM
  #3
TheDevilMadeMe
Global Moderator
 
TheDevilMadeMe's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2006
Location: Brooklyn
Country: United States
Posts: 40,944
vCash: 500
Roy's regular season prime is generally considered to have ended around 1992, before Hasek was even a starter in the NHL, so what is already a small sample is skewed in Hasek's favor as you are comparing his absolute prime with still-excellent-but-not-quite-in-his-prime-anymore Roy.

Past that, you have a single playoff series in 2002, when Detroit was better than Colorado and Roy had a stinker in Game 7 that dragged down his save percentage for the whole series.

To your credit, you never said these stats prove anything - they are somewhat interested trivia.

TheDevilMadeMe is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
06-24-2013, 05:56 AM
  #4
quoipourquoi
Moderator
Goaltender
 
quoipourquoi's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2009
Location: Hockeytown, MI
Country: United States
Posts: 3,641
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by GuineaPig View Post
It would've been quite interesting if Hasek had spent his entire career in Detroit, though. Although that probably would've made that rivalry very one-sided.
Can't imagine that, considering Roy stopped the Red Wings at a rate of .938 over 569 shots in the playoffs in-between Colorado's Stanley Cups. Unless Hasek is going to start shooting on him too, it was never going to be a one-sided rivalry in Detroit's favor. Roy essentially played at the same rate of Hasek's 1999 playoffs against the best team in the NHL.

quoipourquoi is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
06-24-2013, 05:57 AM
  #5
PhillyBluesFan
Registered User
 
PhillyBluesFan's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2012
Posts: 1,681
vCash: 500
Nice stats, just another thing that kills the idea that Roy and Hasek "were close".

Also mind you except for 02 Hasek was playing with a vastly inferior squad in front of him in all of these games.

PhillyBluesFan is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
06-24-2013, 06:13 AM
  #6
quoipourquoi
Moderator
Goaltender
 
quoipourquoi's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2009
Location: Hockeytown, MI
Country: United States
Posts: 3,641
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by PhillyBluesFan View Post
Nice stats, just another thing that kills the idea that Roy and Hasek "were close".

Also mind you except for 02 Hasek was playing with a vastly inferior squad in front of him in all of these games.
The 1994 and 1995 Montreal Canadiens were "vastly" superior to Buffalo? And let's not lose sight of those 1993 numbers:

Hasek
2/27/93, 20 mins., 6 SV/7 SA, ND
10/09/93, 1 mins., 22 sec., 0 SV/0 SA, ND

Roy
2/27/93, 60 mins., 26 SV/30 SA, W
10/09/93, 60 mins., 16 SV/20 SA, W

Not exactly head-to-head, and it's enough to drop Roy from a .924 to a .915 while only costing Hasek .001 - just in case you had any questions as to whether or not the sample size makes this cross-era cumulation and comparison of statistics a bad idea on the whole.

quoipourquoi is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
06-24-2013, 08:25 AM
  #7
yave1964
22 and counting
 
yave1964's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2013
Location: Lexington ohio
Posts: 330
vCash: 500
Grudgingly I have to say Roy was the better goalie. Absolutely hated him for most of his career. Hasek was a Sabre but did have his moments with my Wings.
When I think of Roy and Hasek I think of Hasek sliding like it was polar bowling taking Roy's legs out from him, instead of fighting like Vernon or Ozzie. God what a flake Hasek was.
BTW in anyones opinion what would the Hawks have done in the nineties with Hasek in goal? And while we are on it, would the Habs have 25 banners instead of 24 if it hadn't been for the unfortunate trade of Roy and Keane?

yave1964 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
06-24-2013, 08:46 AM
  #8
Darth Yoda
Registered User
 
Darth Yoda's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2012
Location: Grovebranch's Crease
Country: Sweden
Posts: 2,897
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by TheDevilMadeMe View Post
Roy's regular season prime is generally considered to have ended around 1992, before Hasek was even a starter in the NHL, so what is already a small sample is skewed in Hasek's favor as you are comparing his absolute prime with still-excellent-but-not-quite-in-his-prime-anymore Roy.
Yeah, but i dont think there is any argument about the notion that something big evolutionary happened during the later eighties and into the nineties: The butterfly style. Roy got his early regular season dominance to a high extent from being just slightly before that curve. The earlier eighties had been littered with young goalies with new styles taking the Vezina crown just for a year until someone else just like them took it away from them, then Roy and a little bit later Belfour came and for a couple of years "dominated" the position for the same reason, just until the league filled up with more modern goalies and they to the same extent just could not anymore.
Yes Barrasso stayed elite, as did Vanbiesbrouck, Hextall, Roy and Belfour, but the field just filled up to the extent that they did'nt win any more Vezinas. Pelle Lindbergh probably would have "suffered" the same experience, if not worse.

Still, Roy's playoff record is what it is though: Many, many wins.


Last edited by Darth Yoda: 06-24-2013 at 09:06 AM.
Darth Yoda is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
06-24-2013, 09:21 AM
  #9
quoipourquoi
Moderator
Goaltender
 
quoipourquoi's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2009
Location: Hockeytown, MI
Country: United States
Posts: 3,641
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by yave1964 View Post
BTW in anyones opinion what would the Hawks have done in the nineties with Hasek in goal?
Probably as well as they did with Belfour (who never dipped below .921 in the playoffs from 1994 through 2000, and was never really the problem). I could see Chicago putting up a tougher fight against the Avalanche in 1996 assuming Hasek doesn't get the same food poisoning that Belfour had. They would have been a good dark horse pick in 1997 too, but something about picking Hasek to play in the 1997 playoffs makes me a little uneasy, you know?

If Hasek stays in Chicago past 1997, they're probably struggling to make the playoffs (Chicago scored 19 fewer goals than Buffalo in 1998), but still as much of a threat if not more so than Joseph's Oilers. But low seeds in the West would have had to go through Colorado, Dallas, and Detroit. There's a reason only Anaheim broke through in that era.


Quote:
Originally Posted by yave1964 View Post
And while we are on it, would the Habs have 25 banners instead of 24 if it hadn't been for the unfortunate trade of Roy and Keane?
Possibly, because they were in the Eastern Conference. Montreal in 1998 was probably playing just as well as the Avalanche, so if they could tear through the East the way Kolzig and the Capitals did, maybe there's something there. 1998 Detroit looked pretty unbeatable, but then again, so did 1999 Detroit until they had to shoot on Roy.

Compared to the West, you didn't need to be a division winner to escape the Eastern Conference playoffs back then. In an eight-year period, it's feasible that any team with Patrick Roy gets hot once or twice when the only real roadblock is New Jersey. Kolzig did it. Hasek did it. Vanbiesbrouck did it. Irbe did it.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Darth Yoda View Post
Yeah but still, i dont think there is any argument about the notion that something big evolutionary happened the years before and around 1990: The butterfly style. Roy got his early regular season dominace to a high extent from being just slightly before the curve. The early eighties was littered with young goalies taking the Vezina crown just for a year until someone else took it away from him, then Roy and a little bit later Belfour came and "dominated" the position, just until the league filled up with more modern goalies and they did'nt anymore to the same extent.

Still, Roys playoff record is what it is though, many, many wins.
He kinda helped shape the curve though, and he did stay ahead of every butterfly goaltender until the end of his career (particularly in even-strength situations, since his old knees made him a lesser penalty killer than others in the 2000s). Had he stayed on a team that made a commitment to team defense from 1996-2000, his save percentage goes up and he looks better, but I'm not sure Colorado necessarily wins more with the team they have if they don't play aggressive offensive hockey with Sandis Ozolinsh as the #1 defenseman.

quoipourquoi is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
06-24-2013, 09:28 AM
  #10
Doctor No
Mod Supervisor
Retired?
 
Doctor No's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2005
Posts: 24,295
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by PhillyBluesFan View Post
Nice stats, just another thing that kills the idea that Roy and Hasek "were close".
Only if you're cherry-picking.

Doctor No is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
06-24-2013, 09:30 AM
  #11
Ruston*
 
Join Date: Jun 2013
Posts: 614
vCash: 500
The 8 shutouts for Hasek in the 24 games vs. Roy is what jumps out to me.

Like the Nadal-Federer rivalry, Roy (Roger) is the more accomplished of the two, though seems to shrink when faced with Hasek (Rafael).

Ruston* is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
06-24-2013, 09:33 AM
  #12
Sentinel
Registered User
 
Sentinel's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2009
Location: New Jersey
Country: United States
Posts: 3,019
vCash: 500
23 games is a great sample size. Hasek > Roy.

Sentinel is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
06-24-2013, 09:40 AM
  #13
Darth Yoda
Registered User
 
Darth Yoda's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2012
Location: Grovebranch's Crease
Country: Sweden
Posts: 2,897
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by quoipourquoi View Post
He kinda helped shape the curve though, and he did stay ahead of every butterfly goaltender until the end of his career (particularly in even-strength situations, since his old knees made him a lesser penalty killer than others in the 2000s). Had he stayed on a team that made a commitment to team defense from 1996-2000, his save percentage goes up and he looks better, but I'm not sure Colorado necessarily wins more with the team they have if they don't play aggressive offensive hockey with Sandis Ozolinsh as the #1 defenseman.
Yes i wont claim i'm an expert on goalie styles, and what you say might be true. But by just looking at that very clear pattern during the eighties in terms of who got the Vezinas, and their ages, i'm not totally convinced that Roy's regular season peak was only during his Vezina years. It might just have been so that he was equally good past age 26, but that the field of elite goalies had broadened significantly.
When it comes to being clutch in the playoffs though, i dont think i at this stage have anything bad to say about Roy's record, besides that i believe i have read some posts here saying that besides 1986, 1989, 1993, 1996 and 2001 there actually was some years, or series, where he did NOT look like Mr. Clutch.


Last edited by Darth Yoda: 06-24-2013 at 09:48 AM.
Darth Yoda is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
06-24-2013, 09:44 AM
  #14
Hasbro
HFBoards Sponsor
 
Hasbro's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2004
Location: South Rectangle
Country: Sami
Posts: 30,438
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by TheDevilMadeMe View Post
Roy's regular season prime is generally considered to have ended around 1992, before Hasek was even a starter in the NHL, so what is already a small sample is skewed in Hasek's favor as you are comparing his absolute prime with still-excellent-but-not-quite-in-his-prime-anymore Roy.
For whatever reason Roy didn't get enough credit for his regular seasons in Colorado; lingering resentment over forcing his way out of Montreal, East coast bias, playing on a team reluctant to embrace the trap... He wasn't a finalist for the Vezina until 2001-02.

Two snubs in particular stand out:

1996-97 with a 38-15-7 record .928 2.32 7 SO where he lead the league and wins and the Avs to the President's trophy despite Sakic and Forsberg missing 17 games a piece. For comparison's sake the winner Hasek had a 37-20-10 .930 2.27 year

2000-01 the Avs juggernaut year but Roy was a vital contributor going 40-13-7 .913 2.21 4 SO, and broke Terry Sawchuk's record. Hasek again won 37-24-4 .921 2.11 11 SO.

Hasbro is online now   Reply With Quote
Old
06-24-2013, 10:25 AM
  #15
tony d
Honey Nut Cheerios
 
tony d's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2007
Location: Behind A Tree
Country: Canada
Posts: 36,988
vCash: 500
Thanks for sharing this. Those 2 are among the best goalies ever. Shame they only got to play 1 playoff series vs. 1 another.

__________________
tony d is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
06-24-2013, 10:28 AM
  #16
quoipourquoi
Moderator
Goaltender
 
quoipourquoi's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2009
Location: Hockeytown, MI
Country: United States
Posts: 3,641
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Darth Yoda View Post
Yes i wont claim i'm an expert on goalie styles, and what you say might be true. But by just looking at that very clear pattern during the eighties in terms of who got the Vezinas, and their ages, i'm not totally convinced that Roy's regular season peak was only during his Vezina years. It might just have been so that he was equally good past age 26, but that the field of elite goalies had broadened significantly.
When it comes to being clutch in the playoffs though, i dont think i at this stage have anything bad to say about Roy's record, besides that i believe i have read some posts here saying that between 1986, 1989 and 1993 there actuallt was some years or series where he did NOT look lie Mr. Clutch.
I'll address both points:

Roy was better from 1988-1992 than he was during the remainder of his career, and we know this because while he never fell off of a cliff, he still had intermittent spikes in which he looked like his old self: 1993-94, 1996-97, the beginning of 1997-98, 2001-02, and the end of 2002-03 (and basically every playoff except 1998/1999 and 2002/2003).

Spikes aren't unusual for the position (Roy's early contemporaries had some of their own: Vanbiesbrouck in 1994, Puppa in 1996, Barrasso in 1998, Belfour in 2003), but when you're looking for a player's prime, you look for when they're always on top. In Patrick Roy's case, he wasn't being beaten by spikes from those same guys in 1988-1992 the way he was in the subsequent years when they got hot and played second fiddle to Hasek in the save percentage race. Four save percentage titles and a second-place in an injury year is pretty clear cut, even if it predates some butterfly competitors.


And yes, his Montreal playoff record isn't flawless. Montreal was still running a two-goalie system into the 1989 playoffs, so they deferred to Hayward following Patrick Roy's first loss in 1987 (then 4-0 after sweeping Boston) and 1988 (then 3-0 after taking the first three games against Hartford). Heck, in 1989, they went to Hayward when Roy was still 3-0 with a .931. The 1989 Finals were actually the first series he lost in which he got to play every game. Goalies are given a little more rope these days. 1990-1992 was the most mortal he would ever look, and Boston had Montreal's number in those Division Finals. As you alluded, 1993-1997 is really when things took a turn: 45-20 record with a save percentage .025-.040 above the average every time.

quoipourquoi is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
06-24-2013, 10:36 AM
  #17
quoipourquoi
Moderator
Goaltender
 
quoipourquoi's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2009
Location: Hockeytown, MI
Country: United States
Posts: 3,641
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Hasbro View Post
For whatever reason Roy didn't get enough credit for his regular seasons in Colorado; lingering resentment over forcing his way out of Montreal, East coast bias, playing on a team reluctant to embrace the trap... He wasn't a finalist for the Vezina until 2001-02.

Two snubs in particular stand out:

1996-97 with a 38-15-7 record .928 2.32 7 SO where he lead the league and wins and the Avs to the President's trophy despite Sakic and Forsberg missing 17 games a piece. For comparison's sake the winner Hasek had a 37-20-10 .930 2.27 year

2000-01 the Avs juggernaut year but Roy was a vital contributor going 40-13-7 .913 2.21 4 SO, and broke Terry Sawchuk's record. Hasek again won 37-24-4 .921 2.11 11 SO.
He actually was a finalist in 1997 (he was a .923), though he did get less of a look from the GMs than he did from the media in 1997 and 2002. How either he or Theodore were left off of any ballots in 2002 - let alone 10% - I have no idea. And had even-strength save percentage been on anyone's radar, a 2001 nomination is probable, but really, I don't know that Burke wouldn't have been first in line to take a rather undeserved spot that went to Brodeur.

quoipourquoi is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
06-24-2013, 10:50 AM
  #18
Darth Yoda
Registered User
 
Darth Yoda's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2012
Location: Grovebranch's Crease
Country: Sweden
Posts: 2,897
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by quoipourquoi View Post
I'll address both points:

Roy was better from 1988-1992 than he was during the remainder of his career, and we know this because while he never fell off of a cliff, he still had intermittent spikes in which he looked like his old self: 1993-94, 1996-97, the beginning of 1997-98, 2001-02, and the end of 2002-03 (and basically every playoff except 1998/1999 and 2002/2003).

Spikes aren't unusual for the position (Roy's early contemporaries had some of their own: Vanbiesbrouck in 1994, Puppa in 1996, Barrasso in 1998, Belfour in 2003), but when you're looking for a player's prime, you look for when they're always on top. In Patrick Roy's case, he wasn't being beaten by spikes from those same guys in 1988-1992 the way he was in the subsequent years when they got hot and played second fiddle to Hasek in the save percentage race. Four save percentage titles and a second-place in an injury year is pretty clear cut, even if it predates some butterfly competitors.
How do we know that Roy's later regular season "spikes" was in fact not better than he ever did while being a Vezina winner? In the eighties all of a sudden it was best for goalies to be not just under thirty, but often even being a rookie. This is the pattern there, and i believe that the waaay lower GAA during that decade makes it possible that the position just got really better going into the nineties.
That Roy was the best during his Vezina years is not really in question, but perhaps we need to re-evaluate his regular season performance when comparing him to guys like Hasek and Brodeur, if one actually finds it important to weigh eras aginst eachothers.


Last edited by Darth Yoda: 06-25-2013 at 06:12 AM. Reason: for christs sake
Darth Yoda is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
06-25-2013, 06:07 AM
  #19
nik jr
Registered User
 
Join Date: Sep 2005
Country: Congo-Kinshasa
Posts: 10,549
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by TheDevilMadeMe View Post
Roy's regular season prime is generally considered to have ended around 1992, before Hasek was even a starter in the NHL, so what is already a small sample is skewed in Hasek's favor as you are comparing his absolute prime with still-excellent-but-not-quite-in-his-prime-anymore Roy.

Past that, you have a single playoff series in 2002, when Detroit was better than Colorado and Roy had a stinker in Game 7 that dragged down his save percentage for the whole series.

To your credit, you never said these stats prove anything - they are somewhat interested trivia.
i don't see why roy's prime should be considered to end in '92. it seems very unlikely to me, based on roy's usually very high level of play a decade later, and the general pattern of goalies not peaking early and then declining in their mid 20s.

more evidence that roy's prime did not end in '92 is that he was 2nd to hasek in sv% from '93-'03 (among goalies with 200 games), was a vezina finalist in '94, '97 and '02, was 4th in vezina voting in '03, 5th in '98, was a hart finalist in '02, and won 2 conn smythes.

if hasek had never come to NHL, i don't think more than a few people would even make an argument that roy's prime ended in '92.

i also don't think roy was worse by watching him.



imo, the most likely reasons roy's numbers were better in comparison to other goalies before '93 is that roy was in a much more favorable situation: montreal was the best defensive team, with fewest PP's allowed and roy's butterfly was superior to the standup style of other goalies. NHL also had better goalies after '92.

it seems extremely unlikely to me that a goalie's prime would end at age 26, and just coincidentally when he no longer plays for the best defensive team and no longer faces the fewest PPs.


Quote:
Originally Posted by quoipourquoi View Post
Can't imagine that, considering Roy stopped the Red Wings at a rate of .938 over 569 shots in the playoffs in-between Colorado's Stanley Cups. Unless Hasek is going to start shooting on him too, it was never going to be a one-sided rivalry in Detroit's favor. Roy essentially played at the same rate of Hasek's 1999 playoffs against the best team in the NHL.
roy would not have to play worse for the rivalry to be one sided. DRW's goalies were a problem in all those series.

DRW's sv% in those series vs colorado
'96: .859 --- (osgood)
'97: .905 --- (vernon, osgood)
'99: .886 --- (ranford, maracle, injured osgood)
'00: .9055 -- (osgood)
'02: .923 --- (hasek)


Last edited by nik jr: 06-25-2013 at 06:30 AM.
nik jr is online now   Reply With Quote
Old
06-25-2013, 06:24 AM
  #20
BROOKLYnKNIGHTS
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jan 2013
Posts: 4,407
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Hasbro View Post
For whatever reason Roy didn't get enough credit for his regular seasons in Colorado; lingering resentment over forcing his way out of Montreal, East coast bias, playing on a team reluctant to embrace the trap... He wasn't a finalist for the Vezina until 2001-02.

Two snubs in particular stand out:

1996-97 with a 38-15-7 record .928 2.32 7 SO where he lead the league and wins and the Avs to the President's trophy despite Sakic and Forsberg missing 17 games a piece. For comparison's sake the winner Hasek had a 37-20-10 .930 2.27 year

2000-01 the Avs juggernaut year but Roy was a vital contributor going 40-13-7 .913 2.21 4 SO, and broke Terry Sawchuk's record. Hasek again won 37-24-4 .921 2.11 11 SO.
Just face it Hasek was better. Calling the aforementioned snubs is a joke since Dominator had the better stats on a worse team. Roy deserves to win yet he has a lower save percentage and worse GAA on a Stanley Cup and Presidents Trophy winning team?
I hope you realize that in 1996 Hasek won league MVP.

BROOKLYnKNIGHTS is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
06-25-2013, 06:31 AM
  #21
Darth Yoda
Registered User
 
Darth Yoda's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2012
Location: Grovebranch's Crease
Country: Sweden
Posts: 2,897
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by BROOKLYnKNIGHTS View Post
Just face it Hasek was better. Calling the aforementioned snubs is a joke since Dominator had the better stats on a worse team. Roy deserves to win yet he has a lower save percentage and worse GAA on a Stanley Cup and Presidents Trophy winning team?
I hope you realize that in 1996 Hasek won league MVP.
I suppose you mean he was MVP in 1997 and 1998, AND "Best player" as the now called Ted Lindsay Award was awarded to.

The thing with these two goalies purely comes to if Roy's "clutchness" in the playoffs outweighs Haseks dominance over him during the regular season. Personally, i'm on Haseks side becouse he generally did do the best with what he had to work with in the playoffs. And the 1998 Olympics will probably forever be the mark of excellence for me when it comes to goalies in a short international tourney.


Last edited by Darth Yoda: 06-25-2013 at 06:45 AM. Reason: adhd
Darth Yoda is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
06-25-2013, 08:08 AM
  #22
quoipourquoi
Moderator
Goaltender
 
quoipourquoi's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2009
Location: Hockeytown, MI
Country: United States
Posts: 3,641
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by nik jr View Post
i don't see why roy's prime should be considered to end in '92. it seems very unlikely to me, based on roy's usually very high level of play a decade later, and the general pattern of goalies not peaking early and then declining in their mid 20s.

more evidence that roy's prime did not end in '92 is that he was 2nd to hasek in sv% from '93-'03 (among goalies with 200 games), was a vezina finalist in '94, '97 and '02, was 4th in vezina voting in '03, 5th in '98, was a hart finalist in '02, and won 2 conn smythes.
That's akin to saying that because Wayne Gretzky had great seasons in the 1990, 1991, 1992, and 1994, we should assume that his prime had not yet ended and the players who beat him out for the Hart Trophy and Lester B. Pearson Award could be considered to have been competition for him in, say, the early-to-mid 1980s.

Asking for any top-20 player to perfectly follow a mythical "general pattern" or career trajectory is unreasonable, because they're not a general player.

It's not as if Dominik Hasek followed Patrick Roy's pattern when his pre-1994 statistics were shielded from the top teams:


Dominik Hasek, 1991
Above-Average Offense: 54/61
Below-Average Offense: 31/32

Dominik Hasek, 1992
Above-Average Offense: 178/204
Below-Average Offense: 191/209

Dominik Hasek, 1993
Above-Average Offense: 364/411
Below-Average Offense: 281/309

Dominik Hasek, Cumulative
Above-Average Offense: .882 (596/676)
Below-Average Offense: .915 (503/550)


Patrick Roy, 1991
Above-Average Offense: 678/748
Below-Average Offense: 556/614

Patrick Roy, 1992
Above-Average Offense: 821/903
Below-Average Offense: 830/903

Patrick Roy, 1993
Above-Average Offense: 1056/1198
Below-Average Offense: 566/616

Patrick Roy, Cumulative
Above-Average Offense: .897 (2555/2849)
Below-Average Offense: .915 (1952/2133)




Quote:
Originally Posted by nik jr View Post
if hasek had never come to NHL, i don't think more than a few people would even make an argument that roy's prime ended in '92.

i also don't think roy was worse by watching him.
Considering he wouldn't have won another Vezina with or without Hasek, yes, I believe people would still acknowledge that he had peaked somewhere between 1988-1992 while still finding the switch to become that goaltender again every Spring.


Quote:
Originally Posted by nik jr View Post
imo, the most likely reasons roy's numbers were better in comparison to other goalies before '93 is that roy was in a much more favorable situation: montreal was the best defensive team, with fewest PP's allowed and roy's butterfly was superior to the standup style of other goalies. NHL also had better goalies after '92.
Well it certainly didn't help his numbers any, but he was winning save percentage titles by huge margins.


Quote:
Originally Posted by nik jr View Post
it seems extremely unlikely to me that a goalie's prime would end at age 26, and just coincidentally when he no longer plays for the best defensive team and no longer faces the fewest PPs.
Funny, that's exactly how I would describe Terry Sawchuk.


Quote:
Originally Posted by nik jr View Post
roy would not have to play worse for the rivalry to be one sided. DRW's goalies were a problem in all those series.

DRW's sv% in those series vs colorado
'96: .859 --- (osgood)
'97: .905 --- (vernon, osgood)
'99: .886 --- (ranford, maracle, injured osgood)
'00: .9055 -- (osgood)
'02: .923 --- (hasek)
And which series are they going to win that they didn't already win? The one where they could only beat Roy 7 times in 153 shots after having a 2-0 lead (1999)? The one where they could only beat Roy 7 times in 144 shots, period? Where does it become one-sided?

quoipourquoi is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
06-25-2013, 03:16 PM
  #23
pluppe
Registered User
 
pluppe's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2009
Posts: 688
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by quoipourquoi View Post
That's akin to saying that because Wayne Gretzky had great seasons in the 1990, 1991, 1992, and 1994, we should assume that his prime had not yet ended and the players who beat him out for the Hart Trophy and Lester B. Pearson Award could be considered to have been competition for him in, say, the early-to-mid 1980s.

Asking for any top-20 player to perfectly follow a mythical "general pattern" or career trajectory is unreasonable, because they're not a general player.

It's not as if Dominik Hasek followed Patrick Roy's pattern when his pre-1994 statistics were shielded from the top teams:


Dominik Hasek, 1991
Above-Average Offense: 54/61
Below-Average Offense: 31/32

Dominik Hasek, 1992
Above-Average Offense: 178/204
Below-Average Offense: 191/209

Dominik Hasek, 1993
Above-Average Offense: 364/411
Below-Average Offense: 281/309

Dominik Hasek, Cumulative
Above-Average Offense: .882 (596/676)
Below-Average Offense: .915 (503/550)


Patrick Roy, 1991
Above-Average Offense: 678/748
Below-Average Offense: 556/614

Patrick Roy, 1992
Above-Average Offense: 821/903
Below-Average Offense: 830/903

Patrick Roy, 1993
Above-Average Offense: 1056/1198
Below-Average Offense: 566/616

Patrick Roy, Cumulative
Above-Average Offense: .897 (2555/2849)
Below-Average Offense: .915 (1952/2133)






Considering he wouldn't have won another Vezina with or without Hasek, yes, I believe people would still acknowledge that he had peaked somewhere between 1988-1992 while still finding the switch to become that goaltender again every Spring.




Well it certainly didn't help his numbers any, but he was winning save percentage titles by huge margins.




Funny, that's exactly how I would describe Terry Sawchuk.




And which series are they going to win that they didn't already win? The one where they could only beat Roy 7 times in 153 shots after having a 2-0 lead (1999)? The one where they could only beat Roy 7 times in 144 shots, period? Where does it become one-sided?
I may be mistaken but I believe Montreal was allowing the fewest PPs by pretty "huge" margins.

Does anybody have Roys "vs backups" numbers for those years compared to other goaltenders in the league and compared to Haseks peak.

pluppe is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
06-25-2013, 05:11 PM
  #24
Doctor No
Mod Supervisor
Retired?
 
Doctor No's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2005
Posts: 24,295
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by pluppe View Post
Does anybody have Roys "vs backups" numbers for those years compared to other goaltenders in the league and compared to Haseks peak.
For Roy:

http://hockeygoalies.org/bio/nhl/montreal.html
http://hockeygoalies.org/bio/nhl/colorado.html

For Hasek:

http://hockeygoalies.org/bio/nhl/chicago.html
http://hockeygoalies.org/bio/nhl/buffalo.html
http://hockeygoalies.org/bio/nhl/ottawa.html
http://hockeygoalies.org/bio/nhl/detroit.html

I'd probably use z-score as the metric of choice in an "against backups" comparison (since GD and GAR are weighted by playing time). By that metric, Roy matched Hayward in 1986-87 (his age-21 season) and then pulled away.

I've got the data necessary to do a "strength of schedule" - which may be important here - and it's going to be a summer project.

Doctor No is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
06-25-2013, 06:39 PM
  #25
Ohashi_Jouzu
Registered User
 
Ohashi_Jouzu's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2007
Location: Halifax
Country: Japan
Posts: 22,791
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by pluppe View Post
I may be mistaken but I believe Montreal was allowing the fewest PPs by pretty "huge" margins.
You're not mistaken. Between '85/86 and '91/92 the Canadiens faced by FAR the fewest PP opportunities against; fewest in the league every single year, I believe, and often by "huge" margins (~20-30 fewer than 2nd place, and ~100-120 fewer than the team who gave up the most). They still faced ~100 fewer than L.A. in '92/93, but were "only" 8th overall for fewest PPOA.

Ohashi_Jouzu is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Forum Jump


Bookmarks

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off



All times are GMT -5. The time now is 11:39 PM.

monitoring_string = "e4251c93e2ba248d29da988d93bf5144"
Contact Us - HFBoards - Archive - Privacy Statement - Terms of Use - Advertise - Top - AdChoices

vBulletin Copyright ©2000 - 2014, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
HFBoards.com is a property of CraveOnline Media, LLC, an Evolve Media, LLC company. ©2014 All Rights Reserved.